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#396356 - 05/26/08 08:35 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: jeff_andle]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
Quote:

I assumed we inherited our testing system from our ITF days:
All panels require at least two certified instructors.

1st - 3rd dan:

Mid term panel authority must include two judges at least two dans higher than the present rank.

Testing to new rank - at least one judge must rank at least two dan rankings higher than the new rank.

5th - 5th dan

Testing requires two judges two ranks higher than new rank.

6th - 8th dan

Testing in front of ALL of the 8th & 9th dans at World Tournament opening ceremonies.

9th dan:

When grand master dies or retires, the council elects an 8th dan nominee and establishes testing guidelines for promotion from 8th to 9th dan.





Jeff,

Just fair warning that the post I paste below does not put the ATA testing panel in a positive light. It comes NOWHERE close to what you posted above and is what I have come to see more often than not with the ATA. Their rule set and curriculum may be written with high standards, but it has been MY experience that they are not followed well by school owners. This post was written by me back in August of last year. I apologize in advance to YOU as you post with some very interesting view points and I believe that you may be one of the FEW ATA schools that do try to maintain a high standard for its students.

VDJ


I thought that this topic needed to be brought up again. As you may have seen in the thread "Does speed matter in one steps & forms", the poster was upset that he did not pass his exam for his next belt. In some of his explaining some people started to dog pile on the instructor, which I posted to remember that we are only getting one side of the story (and still are). As the posts went on it has came to light the the test panel consisted of the head instructor (rank not known) a 14 YEAR OLD BLACK BELT (and his father, rank not known) and a 19 year old COLORED BELT (The ATA'S infamous Cammo belt). Now it has been debated (and very recently I might add) about the quality of instruction from ATA schools. This is the "Norm" that has been my personal experience. 6 year old BB's, kiddy instructors and now a sub standard testing panel. There should be a law, even the McDojang chain that I have in my area doesn't stoop to this. Now yes I know there MAY BE some ATA schools that have decent instruction and standards, I just haven't come across them and I would NEVER suggest to someone to join one of these schools in good conscience. I'm sorry to all you ATA students out there, but this is the proverbial straw on the camels back.

VDJ

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#396357 - 05/26/08 10:33 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: jeff_andle]
TKD_X Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
Quote:

TKD_X

200 was actually 5th dan requirement.
4th dan is simply to work full time in a school or club and be a certified instructor.
but 6th dan is a requirement for Mastership in our organization.

A club owner could train just one person through to being a certified instructor and qualify on the merits of that students' business savvy and teaching ambitions.

You are testing for 2nd dan, right? Realistically for you or for my 2nd dan student that has similar goals (college then instructorship) finishing college may well mean that getting to 4th dan is a 7+ year experience (4 more minimum for him if he can train full time and keep up grades) and for him it's a minimum 4 years from there to test for 5th, so those 200 students are way in his future. I am encouraged with his goal setting that for his high school finance class he did the business plan for his future dojang!

I also bet that the conditions to become Master in ATA were less codified 15-20 years ago when the organization was smaller and younger. Strict rules overtake subjective wisdom when an organization becomes large enough to need a means of eliminating political disagreements. The reasons for the specific rules can be interpreted and second guessed by outsider and insider alike after the fact, but often they are just the leadership's best guess at how to codify a process that needs to outlive the existing panel in a consistent manner.

It appears that the requirements or expectations of mid ranks, 3rd - 5th dan are similar accross a large number of organizations. On the other hand, it seems that the definition of Master varies wildly although the perception and expectations do not seem to vary much amongst serious organizations. Grand Master Mo's kwan of whatimadeuplastnight notwithstanding.




i was referencing 4th dan as that is considered a master in our system.
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#396358 - 05/27/08 06:40 AM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: VDJ]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

As the posts went on it has came to light the the test panel consisted of the head instructor (rank not known) a 14 YEAR OLD BLACK BELT (and his father, rank not known) and a 19 year old COLORED BELT (The ATA'S infamous Cammo belt). Now it has been debated (and very recently I might add) about the quality of instruction from ATA schools. This is the "Norm" that has been my personal experience. 6 year old BB's, kiddy instructors and now a sub standard testing panel. There should be a law, even the McDojang chain that I have in my area doesn't stoop to this. Now yes I know there MAY BE some ATA schools that have decent instruction and standards, I just haven't come across them and I would NEVER suggest to someone to join one of these schools in good conscience. I'm sorry to all you ATA students out there, but this is the proverbial straw on the camels back.

VDJ




I regret to conceed it happens, at least up to 1st dan and especially in schools that do not have strong regional participation. I can assure you that the New England region has pretty strict adherence to testing panels for black belts and the (to be inducted next month) Sr. master 7th dans and 6th dan Master are more than willing to help smaller schools. I can also assure you that headquarters does not take eggregious violations like that well at all.

All I can really say is this. Consider the rule from marketing of3-33. A person will share a positive experience with three people but will - on average - tell 33 people about a bad experience. The problem schools in the ATA obvioulsy exist but if 10% of them were bad, this simple marketing metric says you'd hear equally about those and the other 90%.

On the other hand, in the larger number of independent schools the brush is narrowed by the lack of unity and one must discuss each and every school independently.

I'll also conceed that my view of ATA is colored by belonging to one of the most cohesive and cooperative regional divisions and by having (the required) ongoing training at World or National events to maintain my certification. In the case that you gave I am afraid to ask if the instructor's "collar" certificate was even on the wall and still in date.
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#396359 - 05/27/08 06:43 AM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: TKD_X]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

i was referencing 4th dan as that is considered a master in our system.




Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. It appears that it's an objectively assigned position or declaration, passed down from an organizational panel.
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sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#396360 - 05/27/08 07:57 AM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: Supremor]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

May I comment on the number of students taught rule:
I have never met I think someone above a fourth degree who was not teaching many students, and who haden't had at least some of those students reach black belt. For me, the ranks of 1st-4th degree are open to all practitioners, but nobody except long time teachers and "givers-back" should be getting 5th degrees and above. The 7th degrees and above are almost all reserved for the directors of organisations like the ITF in my experience. For instance, there are two ITF 8th degrees in England that I know of, master Ellis and Master Nardizzi, both of whom are representatives for ITF-V in England. Of course, I could be wrong, so apologies if there is another ITF-V 8th degree I don't know about.




These is also a female master that just received her 8th degree from the UK, a Master Sutherland. Now she is technically from Scotland.

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#396361 - 05/27/08 08:15 AM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: Supremor]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Quote:


i think the master title should be given at the discretion of a high ranking master, grandmaster, or a panel that has a combination of those. there are a lot of cases where one should be considered a master and they don't have 200 students.



In the ITF this is exactly how it is done. I cannot explain exactly the process, as I have not had to go through it, and will probably never do so! But I believe for all black belt gradings, there should be a panel of international instructors(fourth degree and above). For higher dans, I think the requirements for the panel are even higher.




Please keep in mind that there are now 3 ITFs ;(
So there is now some deviation from this process. However, what I post next is how Ambassador Choi set it up over the years. Now also understand when he was alive, he basically just did it.
1st - 3rd Dan BB is done by a certified International instructor. An II can test up to half their rank. So a 4th Dan II can test to 2nd Dan. You would need a 6th Dan to test a candadate to 3rd Dan. So this is done with the sole signature of 1 person.
Now 4th Dan & above is handled through ITF Headquarters & the Promotion Committee. A request to test someone to this level must be submitted to ITF Headquarters in advance (90 days I think). A personal histroy & thesis is also submitted at this time. The ITF then advises who will comprise of the panel. It is usually made up of the national body, depending on size of country, with the senior member signing the paperwork.
Now for 7th degee, which is master level & above. There IS NO PHYSICAL TEST! The process is suppossed to be as follows: A candidate is nominated by someone from the country to the people that oversee the continent, ie the continental president & the ITF VP assigned oversight to the respective continent. These 3 submit the name & their recommendation to the ITF Promotion Committee, who then vote on it.
Now for 9th degree Grandmaster, the vote must be unanimous.

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#396362 - 05/27/08 08:20 AM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: ITFunity]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


These is also a female master that just received her 8th degree from the UK, a Master Sutherland. Now she is technically from Scotland.




Yes, but England and Scotland have separate national associations. Indeed, Rhee Ki Ha started TKD in Scotland before England I believe. In Scotland, there is master Sutherland and Master Dosoo as far as I know.

http://www.tkd-itf.home.pl/pub_web/ver_eng/ngb_europe.html

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#396363 - 05/27/08 01:23 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: Supremor]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1674
"All I can really say is this. Consider the rule from marketing of3-33. A person will share a positive experience with three people but will - on average - tell 33 people about a bad experience. The problem schools in the ATA obvioulsy exist but if 10% of them were bad, this simple marketing metric says you'd hear equally about those and the other 90%."

Yes I have heard this, and mostly I here it from ATA schools. Unfortunately, it has been MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that the 33% that falls largely on the bad schools is accurate. Again no offense to you.

VDJ

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#396364 - 05/27/08 01:44 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: VDJ]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

Yes I have heard this, and mostly I here it from ATA schools. Unfortunately, it has been MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that the 33% that falls largely on the bad schools is accurate. Again no offense to you. VDJ




Now I usually find most TKD schools I go to lacking. In fact, the overwhelming majority, even ITF schools. My own place has limitations that I am not happy with. I don't really visit other types of MAs as much, but when I do, I also find them lacking as well, as I do when I visit an open tournament. So I am not sure that this is limited to ATA schools. Again, since they are a large & successful operation, we would have more opportunity to see them in action & also be disappointed as well. But I for one, as most disappointed across the board. This is why I think the MMAs have grown so much.

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#396365 - 05/27/08 03:50 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: Supremor]
TKD_X Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
Quote:

Quote:


These is also a female master that just received her 8th degree from the UK, a Master Sutherland. Now she is technically from Scotland.




Yes, but England and Scotland have separate national associations. Indeed, Rhee Ki Ha started TKD in Scotland before England I believe. In Scotland, there is master Sutherland and Master Dosoo as far as I know.

http://www.tkd-itf.home.pl/pub_web/ver_eng/ngb_europe.html




i went to that link and i was surprised to find that the ITF has a following in Latvia. i'm half latvian.
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