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#396346 - 05/26/08 09:08 AM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: Supremor]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Oh, there's also Rhee Ki Ha, but I thought he was obvious.

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#396347 - 05/26/08 12:21 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: EarlWeiss]
TKD_X Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
Quote:

Quote:

2 million active students! they're gonna have to make a new title for that! i hope it contains "superdeeduper".




I have already been promoted to that rank as founder of my new organization. I am the Eternal Supreme Intergalactic Great Omnipotent Grandmaster




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#396348 - 05/26/08 01:06 PM Re: what does master or grand-master mean to you? [Re: EarlWeiss]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
ATA - STF - WTTU is worldwide. My instructor gets credit for my students' students and so on. At least three different people count those students in their numbers as people of whom they have a direct influence. My partner and I both count our students and so on in our co-owned school, and so forth.

The primary goal of this organization is to improve the lives of as many people as possible through martial arts philosophy. Mastership as a rank is deemed an instructional and not a performance metric. Call it evangelical taekwondo if you like...
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sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#396349 - 05/26/08 01:13 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: TKD_X]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

2 million active students! they're gonna have to make a new title for that! i hope it contains "superdeeduper".




ATA has over a quarter million active students and in excess of a million have at least tried it... I am sure the long term goals are much higher than 2 million...
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#396350 - 05/26/08 01:22 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: Supremor]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

May I comment on the number of students taught rule:

I have never met I think someone above a fourth degree who was not teaching many students, and who haden't had at least some of those students reach black belt. For me, the ranks of 1st-4th degree are open to all practitioners, but nobody except long time teachers and "givers-back" should be getting 5th degrees and above. The 7th degrees and above are almost all reserved for the directors of organisations like the ITF in my experience. For instance, there are two ITF 8th degrees in England that I know of, master Ellis and Master Nardizzi, both of whom are representatives for ITF-V in England. Of course, I could be wrong, so apologies if there is another ITF-V 8th degree I don't know about.




Thank you Supremor. As in every aspect of the ATA, it can be taken as "about the cash" or about the goals of the organization and the requirements of having an infrastructure. Often the difference between any two organizations as perceived by an outsider are subjective and emotional and often developed from a differing philosophy. It makes none of them specifically wrong, but all systems are open to abuse.
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#396351 - 05/26/08 03:09 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: jeff_andle]
TKD_X Offline
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Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
i think the master title should be given at the discretion of a high ranking master, grandmaster, or a panel that has a combination of those. there are a lot of cases where one should be considered a master and they don't have 200 students.
_________________________
Are you ok!?!? It was an accident! No really! I promise!

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#396352 - 05/26/08 03:34 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: TKD_X]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


i think the master title should be given at the discretion of a high ranking master, grandmaster, or a panel that has a combination of those. there are a lot of cases where one should be considered a master and they don't have 200 students.




In the ITF this is exactly how it is done. I cannot explain exactly the process, as I have not had to go through it, and will probably never do so! But I believe for all black belt gradings, there should be a panel of international instructors(fourth degree and above). For higher dans, I think the requirements for the panel are even higher.

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#396353 - 05/26/08 03:44 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: Supremor]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
I assumed we inherited our testing system from our ITF days:
All panels require at least two certified instructors.

1st - 3rd dan:

Mid term panel authority must include two judges at least two dans higher than the present rank.

Testing to new rank - at least one judge must rank at least two dan rankings higher than the new rank.

5th - 5th dan

Testing requires two judges two ranks higher than new rank.

6th - 8th dan

Testing in front of ALL of the 8th & 9th dans at World Tournament opening ceremonies.

9th dan:

When grand master dies or retires, the council elects an 8th dan nominee and establishes testing guidelines for promotion from 8th to 9th dan.
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#396354 - 05/26/08 04:07 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: jeff_andle]
TKD_X Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
i wouldn't even say it has to be a panel. but someone with enough authority says that you have the skills required to become a master. when i test for fourth dan (still about 7 years away...if i'm lucky) the president of our federation (9th dan) and his wife (5th dan) along with my master (currently 4th dan but still going strong) will all probably be present to administer the test. i have a great amount of respect for all three of them. if they call me a master, i'd call myself a master. but in 7 years i really doubt i'll have 200 students. i won't have the resources to open a school. i could very well be in school pursuing a degree all 7 years. the most i'll be able to do is have a small group of students that will also be pursuing other endeavors. i want to open a school someday, but a full dojang with all the bells and whistles and 200 students might not come for a long time. does the ATA have a student requirement for other dans?
_________________________
Are you ok!?!? It was an accident! No really! I promise!

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#396355 - 05/26/08 05:40 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: TKD_X]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
TKD_X

200 was actually 5th dan requirement.
4th dan is simply to work full time in a school or club and be a certified instructor.
but 6th dan is a requirement for Mastership in our organization.

A club owner could train just one person through to being a certified instructor and qualify on the merits of that students' business savvy and teaching ambitions.

You are testing for 2nd dan, right? Realistically for you or for my 2nd dan student that has similar goals (college then instructorship) finishing college may well mean that getting to 4th dan is a 7+ year experience (4 more minimum for him if he can train full time and keep up grades) and for him it's a minimum 4 years from there to test for 5th, so those 200 students are way in his future. I am encouraged with his goal setting that for his high school finance class he did the business plan for his future dojang!

I also bet that the conditions to become Master in ATA were less codified 15-20 years ago when the organization was smaller and younger. Strict rules overtake subjective wisdom when an organization becomes large enough to need a means of eliminating political disagreements. The reasons for the specific rules can be interpreted and second guessed by outsider and insider alike after the fact, but often they are just the leadership's best guess at how to codify a process that needs to outlive the existing panel in a consistent manner.

It appears that the requirements or expectations of mid ranks, 3rd - 5th dan are similar accross a large number of organizations. On the other hand, it seems that the definition of Master varies wildly although the perception and expectations do not seem to vary much amongst serious organizations. Grand Master Mo's kwan of whatimadeuplastnight notwithstanding.
_________________________
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