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#396286 - 05/21/08 01:39 PM what does master or gand-master mean to you?
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
I'd make this a survey except that I really do not want to prefame the answers. I see people claim various titles in their own styles and i see others granted titles without requesting them per se. So, what do people consider makes one a "master", a "grandmaster"?

I'm also curious as to what one sees as the objective comparable meanings of the various dans...

To me a master is an instructor of instructors and the grandmaster is the steward of the style (making it possible for there to be only one in a style!)
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#396287 - 05/21/08 01:44 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: jeff_andle]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
You posted in the TKD section. Were you only looking for TKD input?

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#396288 - 05/21/08 02:13 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: harlan]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
probably should be moved to general... I am open to discussing all input.
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#396289 - 05/21/08 02:20 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: jeff_andle]
JMWcorwin Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
To me, Master would generally be the point one comes to where the principles of the given art become part of them. This is where creativity enters in and they no longer NEED someone to tell them do this or do that. They being creating their own techniques based on their giving system's principles.

GrandMaster to me is simple. A Master, who has gone to the point of training others to the Master level. A person who has mullitple schools in which a GrandMaster is needed to make final calls on this or that. Grandmaster= Master of Masters.

my 2
_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#396290 - 05/21/08 02:58 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: JMWcorwin]
tkd_high_green Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 1031
Loc: Vermont
Since black belt ranks typically take a specific number of years to obtain, I consider the masters rank to be someone who has consistently and regularly trained around 10 years since they earned their adult black belt. Someone of masters rank should be able to think on their feet, teach others, and be able to learn independently. Regardless of individual skill, they must demonstrate knowledge and understanding of their chosen art and ideally should begin sharing that knowledge with others. (granted not everyone can teaching)

As practitioners get older, their technical skills will often deteriorate due to age or injury, so knowledge and contribution becomes a greater factor in promotion. Grand Masters will often have 35+ years of experience, and have contributed greatly to the survival of their art, by continually expanding their knowledge of the art and teaching it to the next generation of practitioners, running schools, researching and improving techniques, etc.

Laura

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#396291 - 05/21/08 03:25 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: tkd_high_green]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
I honestly don't know of any Grand Masters in TKD. I have my Instructor who is just that, an Instructor though he holds the belt of 4th Dan. My friend trains under his friend at another school and he is know as Instructor as well; he holds a 5th Dan. A third friend owns another school and he is known as Instructor; he holds a 6th Dan. THEIR Korean teacher holds the rank of 7th Dan and he is called by them their Master.

I would have no problems calling him Master if I trained under him as they consider him their Master. However calling somebody a Grand Master is just too much of a title in my opinion and too much of an ego thing. I'm sure my Instructor and the others could theoretically call themselves Masters however they don't and I like it that way. In fact we call them by their first name followed by "Sir" when addressing them; the same way they address me/others. I like it this way; no ego, no title.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#396292 - 05/21/08 03:54 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: tkd_high_green]
JMWcorwin Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
Naming a time frame as a qualifier for Master leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I know plenty of advanced black belts with well more than 10 years of black belt experience and teaching at that level. That by no means makes them masters, myself included. I'm a Master then because I got my 1st dan 16 years ago? No.

Everyone learns at different rates and levels. Master should be a measure of understanding and proficiency, not of seniority.
_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#396293 - 05/21/08 04:13 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: JMWcorwin]
EarlWeiss Offline
Member

Registered: 07/29/05
Posts: 322
In the ITF the term "Master" is used to Denote the level of Instructor. Dans 1-3 are novice, 4-6 are expert, 7-8 Master, and 9 is Grandmaster. The term Master at & is fitting for this sytem since to achive that level you have demosnstrated knowledge for the entire syllabus of the system.
This makes any system using the term "Master" of it;'s system when the entire system has not be learned somewhat disingenuous.

In the ITF 30 years of training is not unusuual to achieve the 7th Dan Level.

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#396294 - 05/21/08 04:19 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: EarlWeiss]
puffadder Offline
Member

Registered: 04/29/07
Posts: 250
Loc: UK
In our system we have students and teachers, When a teacher's students become teachers themselves then that teacher becomes a master. The grandmaster is the most senior master ie the head of the system. It's based on Chinese family tradition of children, father, grandfather and so on. When your children become fathers themselves you become a grandfather.

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#396295 - 05/21/08 04:32 PM Re: what does master or gand-master mean to you? [Re: EarlWeiss]
Andymcc Offline
Member

Registered: 12/07/06
Posts: 123
Loc: Rochester NY, USA
People get way too caught up in terminology.
A quick looks at a dictionary reveals the following defintions of master:
* To conquer or overcome: (to master one's pride.)
* Become adept in: (to master a language.)
* A worker qualified to teach apprentices and to carry on a trade independently.
* A person eminently skilled in something, as an occupation, art, or science.

Applied to TKD, Master means any and all of these. Master doesn't mean you know it all ( I believe that term is "Omniscient" ... basically God). Don't go elevating anyone to that stuatus quite yet.

I have my masters' degree, but definitely don't know EVRYTHING there is to know im my field.

And knowing a syllabus... such as the ITF's, still doesn't mena you have learned "all" there is to learn anyway.

So, master (to me) means someone who has achieved a highly expert level of proficiency. But it can't be measured in terms of something as concrete as years of service.

If the ITF considers dans 4-6 "expert", then to me that should translate to master. Doesn't mean you know it all, but as the definition of the word suggests, you have achieved at a very high level.

I also agree with the thought that the term Grandmaster doesn't really need even exist. Is not simply saying somebody is an 8th or 9th dan enough? It's just more uesless terminology to me. Suddenly it makes somebody who is a "master" "less" of an expert. Splitting hairs IMO.

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