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#396240 - 05/21/08 10:00 AM I brush my teeth with FROG
TheCrab Offline

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
ignoring the thread title, I thought I would make a poll about this, seeing as its a common discussion.

It seems that with 99% of the tma dojos, and even some of the mma themed gyms you go to, you will spend half the lesson discussing how to avoid fights.
I dont know about anyone else, but when i pay 15 dollars for 90 mins of training, it gives me the [censored] when I have to spend 30 of it listening to an instructor going on about ways to avoid fighting. I'd rather just learn how to fight.
I think a portion of Martial Art lessons should be about conflict avoidance
Only one choice allowed

Votes accepted starting: 05/21/08 09:59 AM
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

#396241 - 05/21/08 10:26 AM Re: I brush my teeth with FROG [Re: TheCrab]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
LOL You pay $15 for 90 minutes worth of instruction, man you are getting off cheap. Most MA lessons are on average $35-$75 and you are complaining about the lesson plan. Now tthere are some rare situation you can get quality Instruction free.

I think that Martial Arts are more then learning to fight, it is about learning to control yourself and learn when to fight. There should be principles and laws taught that teach you to use the your skills to better yourself. Going to jail is not bettering yourself.

There is a big difference between walking up to someone sucker punching them, and noticing a precieved threat and pre-empt striking. The action looks the same, but the words and motion can save you from punishment.

People are not wild animals but I use the AM pit bull as an example known to be good candiates to train to fight. With no command control or socailization they are a threat to the public because they are natural fighters are in the top 4 of dogs that kill humans. BUT with command control/knowing when to counter/attack, socailization/knowing how to talk down, when to get away,whose friendly/playing or a real threat, proper training to include philosophy of life, moral concisiousness/humans only and penlties for not abidding/even dogs understand that. You have a complete MAs.
With this mental training and conditioning even the powerful Am pit bulldog can be very good canines and just part of the family.

Other then that you can have a rabid acting dog thats a threat to soceity.

To coin a popular movie, "With great power comes great responcibilites", I think it went something like that.

Is that putting ourselves above the norm, maybe, maybe not but whats wrong with taking the high ground?

Edited by Neko456 (05/21/08 10:29 AM)

#396242 - 05/21/08 10:36 AM Re: I brush my teeth with FROG [Re: Neko456]
TheCrab Offline

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
wow im getting smashed in the poll.


LOL You pay $15 for 90 minutes worth of instruction, man you are getting off cheap

wasnt an exact figure. thats an average muay thai class
if I got charged 75$ for one class I would kill someone.

your pit bull example was good, but it was about pit bulls, not people. I personally think that teaching people to walk away and whatnot is a waste of time, its all stuff that they already know, or have to find out for themselves.
the sign says "martial arts lessons", not "martial arts/councelling"

#396243 - 05/21/08 10:42 AM Re: I brush my teeth with FROG [Re: TheCrab]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
actually, I think you are missing the point and I think the pitbull example was spot on.

We, as humans, are not to far from dog/animals. We are taught, so are dogs. Dogs are taught to konw when or when not to attack and so are we (martial training).

I think counseling, is probaly apart of the art. The art as a whole offers a lot. Not just fighting.

I am a little surprised to hear Muay Thai spending a lot of time on when not to fight. I thought that is what Muay Thai was about.
90 percent of good abs is your nutrition

#396244 - 05/21/08 11:11 AM Re: I brush my teeth with FROG [Re: JasonM]
everyone Offline

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
Conflict avoidance and de-escalation techniques are common sense skills. Talk about it after class if you will but don't waste training time. I can always take a class in interpersonal communications from an instructor who is better qualified to teach it then a martial arts instructor.

I do not need or want my martial arts instructor to teach communications skills, morals, basket weaving or anything else then what I am there for, to learn fighting skills.

#396245 - 05/21/08 11:32 AM Re: I brush my teeth with FROG [Re: TheCrab]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas

I think you need more counseling than you realize.
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<

#396246 - 05/21/08 12:55 PM Re: I brush my teeth with FROG [Re: everyone]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH

Conflict avoidance and de-escalation techniques are common sense skills. Talk about it after class if you will but don't waste training time.

I disagree completely. It is important to know when to fight and when not to. It is important to know how to avoid a confrontation and it is not common sense to everyone. Common sense isnt that common.

From what I have seen with firearms training, they never just teach you how to shoot. The instructor teaches when a firearm should be used and when some other type of skill or de-escalation can be used. I think all situations that might involve the use of violence or force should be dealt with in a similar manner. You should be taught the skills to identify when you need to use what you have been taught and when it is best to try to simply calm the situation down and walk away.

I can teach someone to hurt somebody and how to avoid getting hurt but I can't teach someone how to deal with the many situations that may result from the confrontation (legal, emotional, mental) if their opponent has a concealed weapon, if they use too much force, or if they let someone in their care be injured by choosing the wrong time to fight. I think the instructor has a responsibility to make sure what he is teaching you will be used with good judgment or at least as much as he is capable of passing on.
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

#396247 - 05/21/08 01:10 PM Re: I brush my teeth with FROG [Re: RazorFoot]
ThomsonsPier Offline

Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 475
Loc: Reading, UK
I agree that students should be reminded that violence is a last resort, but can't fathom why a significant portion of training time should be spent on it.

I'm unclear from your post what you mean by conflict avoidance; we learn a lot of physical techniques for de-escalation if an attack is already underway, but haven't much discussed what to do to avoid the initial situation. I think it's largely because my Sifu doesn't think we need it, being responsible adults (or about close as adult males ever get).

It may, of course, depend on the class in question. Some people may need reminding more than others.

War. It's fan-tastic!

#396248 - 05/21/08 01:17 PM Re: I brush my teeth with FROG [Re: ThomsonsPier]
Dereck Offline

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10416
Loc: Great White North
I also concur, avoidance of any violence should be brought up just like I believe that training to "be aware" of your surroundings and people is important HOWEVER this does not take up much time and that you are there to "train" so train what to do when violence is unavoidable.

I think it is common sense to avoid any violent action; at least that is my mentality. Try to deescalate the situation and never take a fighting posture; though that doesn't mean you cannot put open hands up in front of you for protection. Be aware of the surroundings like escapes, people, objects, etc. But we train to fight so fighting should be the majority of the training.

As for Crab's pricing; I understood it. If I pay $70 for a month of class and I can go to 8 classes a week then my average cost per class is $2.19. However I could never attend that many so with only going to 3 classes a week my cost per class is $5.83.

#396249 - 05/21/08 01:20 PM Re: I brush my teeth with FROG [Re: ThomsonsPier]
RazorFoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/01/04
Posts: 2064
Loc: Seated at the computer, DUH
I refer more to the initial stages of the confrontation when you have someone intent on fighting for no good reason. A lot of students do not have the skills or techniques to use to calm the situation down properly and get out of it without having to use force.

Believe me, I am by no means a pacifist. If you put your hands on me, all the de-escaltion techniques in the world won't keep me from tearing into you but before it comes to that, you may be able to reduce the threat of violence by using other skills to talk your way out of it.

Also, if you have a child in your care or a woman who has no training and may be frightened, de-escalation would be the best solution. You may be prepared to fight but how do you protect yourself and those around you from harm at the same time, especially if there is more than one threat?

There are too many variables to think that all you need to know is how to fight. It simply makes sense to have other options and to be trained on how & when to use them properly.

As to how much class time to take up on it, that is the instructor's call. It is something I would do in more of a seminar type format maybe once or twice a year as opposed to doing it in class. Once I had covered it extensively, a brief reference back to it before self defence training should be sufficient to keep people thinking about how to use the skills if needed and when needed.

Edited by RazorFoot (05/21/08 01:28 PM)
"The greatest way to live with honor in this world is to be what we pretend to be."

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