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#395526 - 05/15/08 01:20 PM what to do
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
I decided to go back for my black belt. I found an ATA school with a good teacher. I verbally said I want to join. I have yet signed papers. Legally I am not bound, but ethically I am. My wife's, son's, and daughter's instructor wants me to join with him; because of my home instruction they are really good for their level. I just figured out how to keep the kids occupied for the classes if I did join, but I feel I owe it to the ATA instructor to stay with him. The gas prices being high I want to join my families instructor, and the price of their instructor is cheaper then the ATA instructor.

My main goals are to obtain a black belt and lose weight to get my surgery for my hernia. I can do both at either location.

I am so confused
_________________________
being smarter then the average man, my mistakes tend to be worse then the average man

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#395527 - 05/15/08 01:25 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
So...who is more important to please? Your WIFE or some stranger who wants your paycheck???

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#395528 - 05/15/08 01:32 PM Re: what to do [Re: harlan]
ITFJJ Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/07
Posts: 88
Loc: Montréal
Not that the training to get to the black belt test isn't a sacrifice in and of itself, but why make life harder than it needs to be? I would be looking at the club where your family is already taking classes. Unless you find the quality of instruction to be suspect, it sounds like a win-win.
_________________________
ITF II Dan

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#395529 - 05/15/08 01:43 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
JMWcorwin Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/13/07
Posts: 731
Loc: SoCal, USA
Yup,

Easy call. Go with the wife and kids, or it will bite you in the a$$ at home eventually. You don't owe the ATA guy anything... school owners get someone every single day that says they're going to join and never returns. I used to have a guy who would come in every other week, watch a class, say he's going to sign up, then I wouldn't see him until the next time he "wanted to sign up".

No worries man.
_________________________
There are no PERFECT techniques, only perfect execution for the situation at hand. ~Corwin

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#395530 - 05/15/08 02:25 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
everyone Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 597
Loc: USA
I would, without question, join with your families school. Give the other instuctor a call and say, "Thank you for the opportunity to train with you but at this time I am chosing to train at the same school as the rest of my family." He/She will understand.

BUT, DO NOT TRAIN WITH YOUR FAMILIES SCHOOL IF:
*You can't humble yourself and possible accept a lower ranking then your wife and child.
*You want to be the assistant instructor for your family
*You don't keep your mouth closed and your ears open
*You want to tell people how good you are and how you should be a higher belt

To keep the peace with your family and your new school, start fresh with an open mind.

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#395531 - 05/18/08 11:13 PM Re: what to do [Re: everyone]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
Your family is the greatest gift given you, why would you want to be separated from that ? I train with my son and one of my daughters, we are our schools "Team" Forms team and its a great way to bond ! Oh, and what everyone says in the second part of their post !

VDJ

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#395532 - 05/19/08 10:09 AM Re: what to do [Re: VDJ]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
My wife wants me in the ATA class. Her instructor seems to need numbers. I have not been asked to pay the ATA instructor(I also asked if I needed to pay same answer)


BUT, DO NOT TRAIN WITH YOUR FAMILIES SCHOOL IF:
*You can't humble yourself and possible accept a lower ranking then your wife and child.
He would give me my current rank or equivalent.

*You want to be the assistant instructor for your family

My wife wants me to be at home assistant instructor.

*You don't keep your mouth closed and your ears open

I always do in regular company(meaning away from this forum)

*You want to tell people how good you are and how you
should be a higher belt

I don't I just ask if I should( It shouldn't hurt to ask, should it?)
_________________________
being smarter then the average man, my mistakes tend to be worse then the average man

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#395533 - 05/19/08 10:50 AM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
I agree with everyone, simply go to the guy and explain the situation. I am a great believer in always leaving the lines of communication open (unless there's a reason not to). The guy should understand and accept your decision. If he doesn't then it is a good sign you were better off not training there.
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#395534 - 05/19/08 10:53 AM Re: what to do [Re: trevek]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I don't understand why your wife would prefer you to train at a different school than her and the kids (the ATA place)...and still want you to activily support/train them at home. Sounds like some more family discussion needs to take place about expectations.

Good luck with your training, and whatever you choose.

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#395535 - 05/19/08 01:17 PM Re: what to do [Re: harlan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Wife and kids every time.
_________________________
http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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#395536 - 05/19/08 03:03 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Whatever you do. Get yourself and your family away from the ATA.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#395537 - 05/19/08 03:04 PM Re: what to do [Re: dandjurdjevic]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
harlan I goto ATA school. Wife and kids goto YMCA Martial Arts. The ATA is known for being extremely sympathetic to people with challenges, such as mine. Both of the instructors are understanding.
_________________________
being smarter then the average man, my mistakes tend to be worse then the average man

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#395538 - 05/19/08 03:30 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
TKD_X Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
Quote:

harlan I goto ATA school. Wife and kids goto YMCA Martial Arts. The ATA is known for being extremely sympathetic to people with challenges, such as mine. Both of the instructors are understanding.




and the YMCA isn't?
_________________________
Are you ok!?!? It was an accident! No really! I promise!

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#395539 - 05/19/08 11:39 PM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
BulldogTKD Offline
Member

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 294
Quote:

Whatever you do. Get yourself and your family away from the ATA.




DITTO!

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#395540 - 05/20/08 01:00 AM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

I decided to go back for my black belt. I found an ATA school with a good teacher. I verbally said I want to join. I have yet signed papers. Legally I am not bound, but ethically I am. My wife's, son's, and daughter's instructor wants me to join with him; because of my home instruction they are really good for their level. I just figured out how to keep the kids occupied for the classes if I did join, but I feel I owe it to the ATA instructor to stay with him. The gas prices being high I want to join my families instructor, and the price of their instructor is cheaper then the ATA instructor.

My main goals are to obtain a black belt and lose weight to get my surgery for my hernia. I can do both at either location.

I am so confused




Penguin,

As an ATA school owner and as the guy that pointed you that way, I have to say this. ATA is all about families and you should train with yours. Join them or move them. If they are not far into it and are willing to even consider a switch then ask your instructor his family rate. If it's not a winning rate or they won't switch, you do.

Still gas will only get worse and it sounds like you'd be in a better place family-wise to make the switch instead.
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#395541 - 05/20/08 07:51 AM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
BrianS said
Quote:

Whatever you do. Get yourself and your family away from the ATA.




why? are they so bad? their forms are easy yet challenging to learn. The sparring is fun and fast paced(great aerobic workout) The whole thing is more structured to what is expected for each belt level. The Instructors have instructors to turn to for reference, They promote continued learning for the instructors, and not dependent on just their own knowledge. My wife will "kill" me for buying the ata sparring gear and not go there.

I know they are known to be like a "McDojo", but wouldn't it be better for the students to have a leader who shows them that just because you have a black belt you still have a lot to learn? Several non "McDojos" are with instructors whom think that now that they are black belts they don't need to learn anymore. I read in the ATA literature that they do not authorize a black belt to instruct on their own until they are at least 3rd degree. Before then they have to assist for around 2-3 years. They also prefer owners to be at least 4th degree or higher. They seem to want qualified instructors not just some schmuck with a black belt. (I am not saying that the Y instructor is schmuck, but he has no higher ups as I know it)
_________________________
being smarter then the average man, my mistakes tend to be worse then the average man

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#395542 - 05/20/08 07:59 AM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Don't listen to BrianS. He's a Goju guy, anyway.

I don't see your problem. Discuss your options with your family, make up your mind, and go for it. From reading your previous threads, it seems you have a clear idea of what you want, and getting people to discuss the merits/negatives of some unknown ATA school won't do you any good.

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#395543 - 05/20/08 09:18 AM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
Quote:

BrianS said
Quote:

Whatever you do. Get yourself and your family away from the ATA.




why? are they so bad? their forms are easy yet challenging to learn. The sparring is fun and fast paced(great aerobic workout) The whole thing is more structured to what is expected for each belt level. The Instructors have instructors to turn to for reference, They promote continued learning for the instructors, and not dependent on just their own knowledge. My wife will "kill" me for buying the ata sparring gear and not go there.

I know they are known to be like a "McDojo", but wouldn't it be better for the students to have a leader who shows them that just because you have a black belt you still have a lot to learn? Several non "McDojos" are with instructors whom think that now that they are black belts they don't need to learn anymore. I read in the ATA literature that they do not authorize a black belt to instruct on their own until they are at least 3rd degree. Before then they have to assist for around 2-3 years. They also prefer owners to be at least 4th degree or higher. They seem to want qualified instructors not just some schmuck with a black belt. (I am not saying that the Y instructor is schmuck, but he has no higher ups as I know it)




Have you ever been to an ITF or WTF school? Though I know they exist, I have found it VERY rare that any martial art school is operated by anything less than a 3rd dan (though I have come across tactical SD instructors that could put alot 5th dans to shame). It has been my personal experience that the ATA schools I have visited were less than competent in their instruction, with lots of "Kiddy" BB's. Their philosophy is sound but I have experienced their abilities are not. And I have not come across to many BB's who think they know it all, though I have come across some newbies that do believe that.

Side note to Jeff: This is not an attack on the ATA, this is my HONEST OPINION OF ACTUAL EXPERIENECES I HAVE HAD WITH ATA SCHOOLS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

VDJ

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#395544 - 05/20/08 10:35 AM Re: what to do [Re: harlan]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
Quote:

Don't listen to BrianS. He's a Goju guy, anyway.

I don't see your problem. Discuss your options with your family, make up your mind, and go for it. From reading your previous threads, it seems you have a clear idea of what you want, and getting people to discuss the merits/negatives of some unknown ATA school won't do you any good.



I think the main problem is that my wife wants me in the ATA school for the fact that they are known to be accepting of people with disabilities, and that I would be in the same class as she and higher ranking. She thinks I would lord over her by trying to help her "to much". She probably thinks my idea of keeping the kids occupied during class (letting them watch a dvd on our portable dvd player) won't work all the time (she might be right).

I was speaking in general of ATA schools. Again according to the literature I have read, they are all same transferring from one school to the next is easy(probably why people think they are a "McDojo") I apologize for the discussion of the merits/negatives of some unknown ATA school. I was merely explaining what I have observed from a couple of schools I have seen or heard of. All of the schools around here are owned by 3degree or higher.
_________________________
being smarter then the average man, my mistakes tend to be worse then the average man

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#395545 - 05/20/08 12:01 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Quote:

I read in the ATA literature that they do not authorize a black belt to instruct on their own until they are at least 3rd degree. Before then they have to assist for around 2-3 years.




They may not authorize to teach until 3rd dan but the requirements to own a license are as follows from the ATA website.

Quote:

There are actually two types of ATA licenses you can be granted:

A School licensee is person who has a full-time operation meaning that it is open 11 or more hours per week. It must also be an independent business (not part of another facility). &#8232;

A Club licensee is person who has a part-time operation that is open less than 10 hours per week. It MUST be part of another facility, such as a fitness club, recreation center or business of that nature.

There are a couple Basic Requirements to receive a license:

You must be an actively training member of the ATA

You must be at least a First Degree Black Belt

Eighteen years old

Minimum Level 2 certified instructor

Potential licensees are required to attend a three-day business class at ATA Headquarters before any license can be granted.

We ask that you seek the guidance and the knowledge your senior instructor has to offer.






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#395546 - 05/20/08 12:54 PM Re: what to do [Re: oldman]
Dereck Offline
Prolific

Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Penguin, I have no personal experience with the ATA so for myself let's take that out of the equation and talk solely about the learning aspect.

First and foremost you want to be in a school where you are able to learn and continue to learn. In a school I think you have more ability to grow then at the local YMCA with a part time person teaching. In a school there is a lot of support whereas at the "Y" there may not be as it sounds from interpreting the above posts.

The next thing is to be realistic, how long do you plan to train ... short term or long term? Be honest, how long will your wife and kids train? Chances are you will train longer then your wife and kids so go to a place where you can train and let them train in the other atmosphere. If they decide to stick with it then have them join you in a more structured atmosphere. If they decide to quit then no biggy as you will already be at the school where as if you joined them and they quit you'd have perhaps seen it as time wasted time as you were only doing it for them.

I don't think it is selfish to think of yourself in this case. You are training for "you" not them and where it would be nice to train with your family it is not necessary if your wife is okay with it. This is just my opinion.

Not the same but an example; I go to a different dentist then my wife and daughter do. They like their dentist and I like mine. My wife and daughter are Catholic and I am not. My wife and I have different political beliefs. My wife and daughter like watching soaps; I don't. For all of the differences we have no problem coexisting and realize that we don't have to do everything together to be a family.
_________________________
"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#395547 - 05/20/08 10:02 PM Re: what to do [Re: Dereck]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
Thank you oldman, I did not know that.
Thank you Dereck, I like how you put that. My wife said she may want to join my school for the structure. Her classes seem to be based on self-defense which is what she wants, but she also wants satisfaction of achieving of a belt. She tests for her yellow next week and she doesn't feel as if she is deserving it.
_________________________
being smarter then the average man, my mistakes tend to be worse then the average man

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#395548 - 05/20/08 11:04 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
ATA! Based on self defense??? !!!

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#395549 - 05/21/08 07:41 AM Re: what to do [Re: VDJ]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

Side note to Jeff: This is not an attack on the ATA, this is my HONEST OPINION OF ACTUAL EXPERIENECES I HAVE HAD WITH ATA SCHOOLS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

VDJ




I know there are a lot of ATA schools that don't exactly meet the goals of the organization. By a lot I mean total numbers, not percentage. Take my word for it that the staff in Little Rock treats them the same way you treat a trouble student - you work with them up to a point and you congratulate them on their choice of a new carreer/training path after a point. At the end of the day though, they are independently owned and operated and the recertification process every three years is the primary filter to prevent this.

The percentage of bad schools is probably lower than in the general rank and file but they stick out because they're all the same organization. I am sure I'd seen such statistics but cannot reference them.

Clearly with independents you still get the great ones and the "why bothers". I compete (economically) against an independent karate school that's been there 20 years and the instructor is very well known. I have also watched several come and go in the three years my place has been open.

(note: ATA did allow a full certification at 1st dan but to get that required a boatload of dedication. My partner and I got ours as 2nd dan and it was a major major effort. Maybe they changed that in the past three years?)

We can talk offline about a few places I'd put on your visit list depending on what you enjoy most. You need to realize though that you're a high rank and the schools are facilities where high ranks TEACH at the level of their students.

Maybe I can get you registered at a National or International training event?

I think you would have enjoyed last weekend in the woods of NH with four 7th dan, 1 6th dan, 2 5th dan, and half a dozen 4th dan instructors. Instead of being "school owner" I was merely the 4th or 5th highest ranked student in a group of 125 or so.

But, i digress...
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#395550 - 05/21/08 07:48 AM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

ATA! Based on self defense??? !!!

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!




OK Brian, you can laugh all you want but until you've taken groundfighting with Sr. Master Arcemont, joint lock with Senior Master Minton, jhang bong with Master Langoria, etc., etc., or foolishly tried to attack Chief Master G.K. Lee (responsible for the protech curriculum) you are way off base.
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#395551 - 05/21/08 07:49 AM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

ATA! Based on self defense??? !!!

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!




And he said her YMCA class was based on self defense... white belt reading skills working for you are they?
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#395552 - 05/21/08 09:08 AM Re: what to do [Re: jeff_andle]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#395553 - 05/21/08 10:06 AM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
I am saying that ATA teaches groundfighting at higher levels and not in each and every school. I know this for a fact whereas you merely make uninformed digs.

A video of a kids yellow belt forms testing (block testing makes them white - yellow belts and 2-9 months into TKD)??? Would you trash MIT by showing a Boston kindergarten class?

A video of some very skilled XMA girls??? I understand not respecting XMA - it took me 2 years to deign to try it and one year to injure myself and break two toothpick bo's to decide it's not for 44 year old men over 250 pounds... OK, so you don't respect XMA. Good for you. That related to groundfighting or to ATA how? (other than that ATA teaches both).

So you don't like a belt color that honors America's servicemen. Good for you. How exactly does that relate to ATA and groundfighting?

So you don't respect point sparring. What's new? I assure you that in the New England region's 40-49 2nd & 3rd degree ring at least, point sparring borders full contact. I won't suggest that half the 2000+ competitors that sparred at that tourny would, be able to or should be allowed to spar under your rules, but you should consider that the other half could and a good number of them might just amase you. In any case, what does that have to do with groundfighting?

Again, you showed an XMA form with the escrimas.

My opinion of you started low and is diminishing. You seem only able to tear down that which is good in a feeble attempt to hold your own head high. This is all sad, because I've reason to believe you are quite accomplished and have earned respect.
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#395554 - 05/21/08 10:50 AM Re: what to do [Re: jeff_andle]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I am saying that ATA teaches groundfighting at higher levels and not in each and every school. I know this for a fact whereas you merely make uninformed digs.





First I heard of it. I hope they didn't get their groundfighting from their forms,lol. Where did they learn their groundfighting? What groundfighting art did they train in? Care to post a video if you have one?

Quote:

A video of a kids yellow belt forms testing (block testing makes them white - yellow belts and 2-9 months into TKD)??? Would you trash MIT by showing a Boston kindergarten class?





No. Good point.

Quote:

A video of some very skilled XMA girls??? I understand not respecting XMA - it took me 2 years to deign to try it and one year to injure myself and break two toothpick bo's to decide it's not for 44 year old men over 250 pounds... OK, so you don't respect XMA. Good for you. That related to groundfighting or to ATA how? (other than that ATA teaches both).





Other than the ATA teaches it? What more do you want? They teach it,groundfighting,forms, nunchaku,kama's, and the bo. The ATA is Prego!!!

Quote:

So you don't like a belt color that honors America's servicemen. Good for you. How exactly does that relate to ATA and groundfighting?






I'm a veteran, don't give me that crap. A camoflage belt in ata mcdojo's does not honor anything or anyone. It just makes a mockery of martial arts and is just one more belt they can charge testing for along with the 13 others they already have,lol. Do they donate the testing proceeds to the military?

Quote:

So you don't respect point sparring. What's new? I assure you that in the New England region's 40-49 2nd & 3rd degree ring at least, point sparring borders full contact. I won't suggest that half the 2000+ competitors that sparred at that tourny would, be able to or should be allowed to spar under your rules, but you should consider that the other half could and a good number of them might just amase you. In any case, what does that have to do with groundfighting?





I'm still looking for the self defense aspect of the ATA. The groundfighting came in where in the ATA?

Quote:

My opinion of you started low and is diminishing. You seem only able to tear down that which is good in a feeble attempt to hold your own head high. This is all sad, because I've reason to believe you are quite accomplished and have earned respect.




Thank you Jeff. I respect your views and posts as well.
I'm not trying to tear them down to make myself feel better. I'm trying to expose places that claim to teach self defense when they clearly do not. They are selling false confidence which will get people hurt,or worse.
I know I'm coming off harsh,but I do feel strongly about this. The ata is all about money.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#395555 - 05/21/08 11:11 AM Re: what to do [Re: jeff_andle]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
Jeff he is playing rock, paper, scissors with Martial arts. It looks like he thinks ground fighting is be-all end-all best MA. That "rock" can still be covered by "paper" Remember in Boxing and most full contact sports being on the ground usually shows that you are about to lose.( I could be wrong)
As far as Camo belts think of it this way, that is the highest belt in the Armed forces Judo in which I have one(it used to be black as the highest) Those of us whom have served, and received injuries do not appreciate that kind of disrespect.
_________________________
being smarter then the average man, my mistakes tend to be worse then the average man

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#395556 - 05/21/08 11:23 AM Re: what to do [Re: jeff_andle]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
I am sure that since the ATA is a very successful organization, the fact that they have so many identifiable schools can lead to impressions. I find no difference from many of the schools I visit, regardless of their affiliation. Most of them are baby sitting child rearing services. Nothing wrong with that, if that is what you seek. TKD schools in general, along with MA schools have little to offer in terms of SD, compared to those who cater to street combat, which BTW is not my cup of tea either.

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#395557 - 05/21/08 11:27 AM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Jeff he is playing rock, paper, scissors with Martial arts. It looks like he thinks ground fighting is be-all end-all best MA. That "rock" can still be covered by "paper" Remember in Boxing and most full contact sports being on the ground usually shows that you are about to lose.( I could be wrong)
As far as Camo belts think of it this way, that is the highest belt in the Armed forces Judo in which I have one(it used to be black as the highest) Those of us whom have served, and received injuries do not appreciate that kind of disrespect.




If you want to adress my posts please do not act like I'm not here.
The camo belt is a money making crock,nothing more.
Red belt (10th dan)is the highest in judo,always has been smarty pants.

I'm not a mma groundfighting tattooed butthead. I'm a karate guy who does judo.
Keep your tux on penguin boy.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#395558 - 05/21/08 11:30 AM Re: what to do [Re: ITFunity]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I am sure that since the ATA is a very successful organization, the fact that they have so many identifiable schools can lead to impressions. I find no difference from many of the schools I visit, regardless of their affiliation. Most of them are baby sitting child rearing services. Nothing wrong with that, if that is what you seek. TKD schools in general, along with MA schools have little to offer in terms of SD, compared to those who cater to street combat, which BTW is not my cup of tea either.




Wow! Mark this post, we agree!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#395559 - 05/21/08 11:33 AM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
try reading the post before you post. I know I have not read a post thoroughly before and had disastrous results. You are not looking smart. Please reread the post you are attempting to put down. You may find out you are mistaken or slightly incorrect.

for example, Armed forces judo uses camo as highest not red. red is not tactical. Thanks for reading.
_________________________
being smarter then the average man, my mistakes tend to be worse then the average man

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#395560 - 05/21/08 11:35 AM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
And therein lies the problem with trying to compare. Military judo, vs other judo. ATA vs...ATA?

Have you taken a class there yet? Do you like it or not?

Committ.

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#395561 - 05/21/08 11:41 AM Re: what to do [Re: harlan]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
the classes seem to be goal oriented. This is a tournament school not a SD school. I had a lot of SD from my kyokushin kai school and my previous TKD school so no worries. I need more practice with what to do if talking myself out of situation doesn't work anyway(sparring) I do like it for that. My wife's classes at the Ymca doesn't deal a lot with that, but as I stated before her classes are SD oriented.
_________________________
being smarter then the average man, my mistakes tend to be worse then the average man

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#395562 - 05/21/08 11:43 AM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Gotta start somewhere. Anything beats sitting on the couch.

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#395563 - 05/21/08 11:58 AM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I guess it pays to wear a camo belt in a tactical environment.

Where does the ata state thst the camo belt is for honoring servicemen?

Commit, do that.

No more stupid pm's from you penguin.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#395564 - 05/21/08 12:54 PM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
BrianS I believe I might speak for everyone. Put up or shut up. Please post a video of you doing any MA. If you are so good that you can arrogantly put down others, prove it. If you are not that good then it would do you good to apologize for your comments.

By the way, It is common sense that camo honoring servicemen. What would the other reason be, and don't say for money(unless you can prove that as well)
_________________________
being smarter then the average man, my mistakes tend to be worse then the average man

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#395565 - 05/21/08 01:20 PM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

First I heard of it. I hope they didn't get their groundfighting from their forms,lol. Where did they learn their groundfighting? What groundfighting art did they train in? Care to post a video if you have one?




It's a requirement for 3rd degree midterms although that level of requirement is a partner drill that you can learn in 8-12 hours. The 7th dan that taught last weekend's advanced training camp trains with one of the Gracie's. Some of the schools in the region have a BJJ guest instructor. Clearly this is not taught to the kids and color belts.

Quote:

Other than the ATA teaches it? What more do you want? They teach it,groundfighting,forms, nunchaku,kama's, and the bo. The ATA is Prego!!!





OK. It tries to be all things to everyone? Maybe. Certainly not everyone gets a deep training in all aspects. I hate nunchuku and barely passed that mid term so I avoid them whenever possible. I love the sticks and train as much as possible, kata and light sparring drills. Others despise sparring or joint lock (a 2nd dan midterm requirement) or all weapons... However ATA is a collection of several thousands of certified instructors teaching the core curriculum to several hundred thousand low rank students while continuing their education in their own preferred specialties.



Quote:

I'm still looking for the self defense aspect of the ATA. The groundfighting came in where in the ATA?




Protech training systems includes all weapons curricula as wel as:
pressure points & control tactics (1st dan requirement)
joint lock and standing submissions/throws (2nd dan)
spontaneous knife defense (3rd dan)
groundfighting basics (breaking guard, overturning mount, submissions, etc. (3rd dan)
... other stuff I have not had yet.


Quote:

I'm trying to expose places that claim to teach self defense when they clearly do not. They are selling false confidence which will get people hurt,or worse. I know I'm coming off harsh,but I do feel strongly about this. The ata is all about money.




If you say so.
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#395566 - 05/21/08 01:26 PM Re: what to do [Re: ITFunity]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

I am sure that since the ATA is a very successful organization, the fact that they have so many identifiable schools can lead to impressions. I find no difference from many of the schools I visit, regardless of their affiliation. Most of them are baby sitting child rearing services. Nothing wrong with that, if that is what you seek. TKD schools in general, along with MA schools have little to offer in terms of SD, compared to those who cater to street combat, which BTW is not my cup of tea either.




I agree with this without reservation. There are resources within the ATA that will teach as much of anything that you want, but it is in addition to, not by way of, TKD.

If I were ONLY after SD I'd be at the Quest Center, where I started my training, but that's a long story in itself.

There are levels of SD and I am sure that the level some people train at is beyond anything I'll ever need. 99% of the people that need some SD don't need that. I cannot speak for everyone that teaches basic SD but I am pretty emphatic to my students that this is the very begginning and that they are not superman... maybe Jimmy Olson.
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#395567 - 05/21/08 01:32 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

BrianS I believe I might speak for everyone. Put up or shut up. Please post a video of you doing any MA. If you are so good that you can arrogantly put down others, prove it. If you are not that good then it would do you good to apologize for your comments.

By the way, It is common sense that camo honoring servicemen. What would the other reason be, and don't say for money(unless you can prove that as well)




He's upset about the number of belts and fees (hey, so was I when I paid them) so he's taking it out on the color choice.

Then again, let's compare a kukkiwon black belt fee... $500 not counting any color belt fees?

9 * $50 for color belts + $150 black belt fee (give or take),,, $600 total?

some people just prefer "Fight Club". I am sure not knocking that choice.
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#395568 - 05/21/08 01:33 PM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
Quote:


No more stupid pm's from you penguin.




I didn't want to deface you in public. That is more rude than what you are doing.
_________________________
being smarter then the average man, my mistakes tend to be worse then the average man

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#395569 - 05/21/08 01:40 PM Re: what to do [Re: jeff_andle]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I don't think he cares at all about ATA, their structure, fees, belts, etc. I think, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, that he thinks the whole system sucks...when compared to other schools. Of course, I could be wrong. I don't read minds. I also don't have a black belt, don't train in SD, and haven't paid a dime to train.

It's apples and oranges. No one is going to change anybody's mind. The only person who can state whether or not ANY school/training is of any value is the person who steps through the door.

Quote:

He's upset about the number of belts and fees (hey, so was I when I paid them) so he's taking it out on the color choice.

Then again, let's compare a kukkiwon black belt fee... $500 not counting any color belt fees?

9 * $50 for color belts + $150 black belt fee (give or take),,, $600 total?

some people just prefer "Fight Club". I am sure not knocking that choice.



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#395570 - 05/21/08 05:59 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

BrianS I believe I might speak for everyone. Put up or shut up. Please post a video of you doing any MA. If you are so good that you can arrogantly put down others, prove it. If you are not that good then it would do you good to apologize for your comments.

By the way, It is common sense that camo honoring servicemen. What would the other reason be, and don't say for money(unless you can prove that as well)




pigeon,

You do not speak for everyone,you speak for yourself.

BTW, what would you like to see me doing?

Since when do I have to prove the obvious?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#395571 - 05/21/08 06:08 PM Re: what to do [Re: harlan]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I don't think he cares at all about ATA, their structure, fees, belts, etc. I think, and he can correct me if I'm wrong, that he thinks the whole system sucks...when compared to other schools. Of course, I could be wrong. I don't read minds. I also don't have a black belt, don't train in SD, and haven't paid a dime to train.

It's apples and oranges. No one is going to change anybody's mind. The only person who can state whether or not ANY school/training is of any value is the person who steps through the door.

Quote:

He's upset about the number of belts and fees (hey, so was I when I paid them) so he's taking it out on the color choice.

Then again, let's compare a kukkiwon black belt fee... $500 not counting any color belt fees?

9 * $50 for color belts + $150 black belt fee (give or take),,, $600 total?

some people just prefer "Fight Club". I am sure not knocking that choice.







You are a mind reader!! The whole system does suck. I don't know where you guys get the impression that I'm some sort of cage fighter type.
I had a judo tournament last week and now my knee is all jacked up. I'm too smart to step in a cage and fight.

I have done goju karate since I was 17yrs old and never paid much at all. I bought a couple of belts and help pay for some certificates for our club, that's about it. I'm not interested in rank, it took me almost ten years to get nidan,lol!

pigeon,

If you want to see me in a video you atleast have to post your real name and location. There are several pictures of me on this website. I have met and trained with other members here as well, you?

I never said I was a super awesome martial artist, those are your defensive ASSumptions. and calling me and idiot through pm would devastate my forum standing.

The ATA is a sucky watered down take ur do blackbelt factory that sells false confidence and drains your wallet. I've seen ata blackbelts that could not kick through wet toilet paper.

Thankyou to all the deer hunters out there honoring our servicemen!!


Edited by BrianS (05/21/08 06:15 PM)
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#395572 - 05/22/08 04:55 AM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
lets go backwards to answer.
Deer hunters where blaze orange. They could get shot with just camo.
I have seen other schools that are black belt factories that are a lot worse. It is the artist not the art or school.
By you putting down Martial artist that go to ATA without actually meeting them you are taking the stance of a superior artist.
It does have my location, and why do you need my real name which is Edward? You do not need to know my last. People that I like will get my last name. I have not seen your pics, where are they?
We do not believe you are a cage fighter just some person with whom they believe they are better then others.
Finally, please use my screen name or my real name that I have posted in this reply. Please start reading thoroughly each post.
_________________________
being smarter then the average man, my mistakes tend to be worse then the average man

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#395573 - 05/22/08 07:05 AM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:


You are a mind reader!! The whole system does suck. I don't know where you guys get the impression that I'm some sort of cage fighter type.




That's an extreme but clearly you don't respect anything except what you do.

Quote:

I have done goju karate since I was 17yrs old and never paid much at all. I bought a couple of belts and help pay for some certificates for our club, that's about it. I'm not interested in rank, it took me almost ten years to get nidan,lol!




And how old are you now? At least 27...

Quote:

The ATA is a sucky watered down take ur do blackbelt factory that sells false confidence and drains your wallet. I've seen ata blackbelts that could not kick through wet toilet paper.




It might shock you but the majority of the 2000 ATA schools barely make enough to pay the head instructors. Sure it's all about the dough... On average I've paid $3000 a month personally in unmet expenses for my school for three years now, but we're all money vampires doing nothing for our communities.

As to the kicking comment, if there is a black belt that cannot meet their age adjusted breaking requirement, that's the instructor's failure to follow the rules and that happens more in non-standardized settings.

By your broad statement you must think I'm watered down? I've posted my side kick board break here and it's on you tube. I may teach and compete point sparring but that isn't all I train or do.
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#395574 - 05/22/08 09:03 AM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

lets go backwards to answer.
Deer hunters where blaze orange. They could get shot with just camo.
I have seen other schools that are black belt factories that are a lot worse. It is the artist not the art or school.
By you putting down Martial artist that go to ATA without actually meeting them you are taking the stance of a superior artist.
It does have my location, and why do you need my real name which is Edward? You do not need to know my last. People that I like will get my last name. I have not seen your pics, where are they?
We do not believe you are a cage fighter just some person with whom they believe they are better then others.
Finally, please use my screen name or my real name that I have posted in this reply. Please start reading thoroughly each post.




My point is that camo or camo belts have nothing to do with honoring the military. Bow hunters do not wear blaze orange,only during gun season. Squirrel hunters don't wear it either.

You want a video from me,yet you have just now revealed your name.
My pics are in the ma talk section several pages back, look for them.
It's a pc copout to say it's the artist not the school. That isn't always the school. Yes, my karate school is much better than the ata for self defense, every karate school I have seen is.


It's not a superior stance to say that the ata is a blackbelt factory,it is what I have witnessed.
14 belts,$35 between each rank between belts. I'm sure that's legit.

I'll leave it alone when places like that quit claiming to teach self defense. It's a blatant lie.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#395575 - 05/22/08 09:09 AM Re: what to do [Re: jeff_andle]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:


You are a mind reader!! The whole system does suck. I don't know where you guys get the impression that I'm some sort of cage fighter type.




That's an extreme but clearly you don't respect anything except what you do.

Quote:

I have done goju karate since I was 17yrs old and never paid much at all. I bought a couple of belts and help pay for some certificates for our club, that's about it. I'm not interested in rank, it took me almost ten years to get nidan,lol!




And how old are you now? At least 27...

Quote:

The ATA is a sucky watered down take ur do blackbelt factory that sells false confidence and drains your wallet. I've seen ata blackbelts that could not kick through wet toilet paper.




It might shock you but the majority of the 2000 ATA schools barely make enough to pay the head instructors. Sure it's all about the dough... On average I've paid $3000 a month personally in unmet expenses for my school for three years now, but we're all money vampires doing nothing for our communities.

As to the kicking comment, if there is a black belt that cannot meet their age adjusted breaking requirement, that's the instructor's failure to follow the rules and that happens more in non-standardized settings.

By your broad statement you must think I'm watered down? I've posted my side kick board break here and it's on you tube. I may teach and compete point sparring but that isn't all I train or do.




Not true. I have alot of respect for what others do including some tkd schools, just none for the ata's that claim to teach self defense.

I'm 34.

Again, the only thing I take issue with is the false claims about teaching self defense.
I saw your board break,nice job. I have broken boards and concrete blocks too. It's just a matter of technique and boody mechanics. Means nothing towards self defense.


Edited by BrianS (05/22/08 09:11 AM)
_________________________
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#395576 - 05/22/08 10:05 AM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Penquin,
Quote:

I have not seen your pics, where are they?






As you are probably learning, threads on FA can take on a life of their own. The thread has in some manner devolved from your original question. As to that question, just make a decision. Choose either place that makes sense to you. You have experience with other arts. Choose the one that fits your current needs best.

In regards to BrianS. Brian has taken the time to travel to Kansas from his home state to train with me on two occasions. BrianS is a traditionally trained Goju practioner. I have had the opportunity to observe Brian in both public and private settings. As a guest in my home and as a dinner guest with other FA members that have traveled to train here also he has always been a gentleman. In my experience he has been unfailingly modest about his skills and gracious toward others. In my school I had the opportunity to watch him work with students of all skill levels. I also invited him to demonstrate his approach to Kata for my students. He holds high standards and expectations
in both art and practical effectiveness. In addition while visiting he attended my classes in Chung Do Kwan TKD, studied Brazilian Ju Jitsu with Michael Graeber and studied Judo with Steve Scott. In each case I found him to be an eager, active and respectful guest and student.



In my experience with him he has demonstrated both a level of skill and courtesy that any member here could aspire to.

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#395577 - 05/22/08 10:43 AM Re: what to do [Re: oldman]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
That may be all true, in which I do believe it is, but his attitude toward others in this thread and others is one of superiority and arrogance. I have meet people who are real good at something can teach it well, but their attitude toward others that he blatantly considers inferior shows their true colors. If you read his postings you will see everything he has posted has been on the negative side. If you are on good terms with him maybe you could translate this properly toward him. I know I have failed at that.

BrianS I to have had bad instructors that only think of money. An example, My last TKD teacher(World Taekwondo Association) had his favorites in class and I joined as a blue belt. He wanted me to pay for all my tests up to blue and he would not teach me anything toward to taking those test. My current instructor (ATA) wants me to only test for my blue, and will not charge me for that test. I don't know about you but that doesn't seem to me to be money hungry. He also is allowing me to try the school out for free until next month.(over half of the month) More money hungry ATA. I noticed my last and current schools are more tournament oriented than SD. I need more sparring to help my timing; in which, that will help me with SD. That plus once a month training on SD will improve anyones SD skills. Not like a full force SD school, but good for the average situation. I hope you see that a blank label on schools like the ATA is not always correct.
_________________________
being smarter then the average man, my mistakes tend to be worse then the average man

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#395578 - 05/22/08 10:50 AM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
On a completely unrelated topic: I was driving to work today and almost ran into another car. Don't know for sure what it was...I looked left and right before entering the intersection. Must have been a blind spot.

We all have blind spots.

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#395579 - 05/22/08 10:53 AM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
by the way oldman, thanks for the pics which one is he. I am assuming he is green on top and blue on bottom. if he is green on top he left his chest open (at least from this angle he did) That is common mistake. I, for one, leave my head open on occasion.
_________________________
being smarter then the average man, my mistakes tend to be worse then the average man

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#395580 - 05/22/08 11:11 AM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Green shirt in the top photo. White gi in the bottom. As a guest in another school he chose to wear a white belt. Yes, in that photo there was an opening. I can assure you, it was not there for long.

_________________________
www.prairiemartialarts.com

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#395581 - 05/22/08 12:03 PM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:


Yes, my karate school is much better than the ata for self defense, every karate school I have seen is.[\quote]

Better than ANY ATA school? That I highly doubt. More focussed on realistic defense than many/most? Quite probably. Is this the only metric that defines the value or validity of a school/style? NOT BY A LONG SHOT.

Quote:

It's not a superior stance to say that the ata is a blackbelt factory,it is what I have witnessed. 14 belts,$35 between each rank between belts. I'm sure that's legit. [\quote]

It's an opinion. There are some that are, some that are not and some that border on it, just like in any school with bills to pay. However, there are 9 color belts (10 if you count 1st degree recommended). There are administrative costs that go with the record-keeping. YOU may not care about rank, but the kid that transfers from California to my school this summer is extremely thrilled that I can access his records at HQ and that his rank is transportable. As I showed yesterday, the total cost of testing fees through to 1st dan in ATA is comparable and arguably lower than a kukkiwan 1st dan. Without having numbers I'd be willing to suggest it's comparable to the cost in any centrally recognized rank system.

Just admit that much, will ya?

Quote:

I'll leave it alone when places like that quit claiming to teach self defense. It's a blatant lie.




We DO teach self defense. It starts very simple and - yes - far below your standards. It builds to whatever level the students and instructors want it to and there is a syllabus from "twist arm to free wrist" right through the full combat taught in some schools.

You will never get over your opinion that only you train for real or that only what you do matters.

I had a (then) yellow belt 11 year old get attacked by a bully at her school. She used a piece of what I taught her to discretely backhand the brachial plexus origin while sidestepping and the older boy was stunned enough to lose his footing and fall on his face. Teachers came, he claimed nothing was happenning, she was grinning, and his friends were all saying that he got beat up by a girl.

Do I think she's anywhere near done (started?) learning SD? No. Did what she learned in her first three months serve her well? YES. Should she have needed anything more in that setting? Maybe and I am still teaching her.
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#395582 - 05/22/08 12:20 PM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:


Not true. I have alot of respect for what others do including some tkd schools, just none for the ata's that claim to teach self defense.

I'm 34.

Again, the only thing I take issue with is the false claims about teaching self defense.
I saw your board break,nice job. I have broken boards and concrete blocks too. It's just a matter of technique and body mechanics. Means nothing towards self defense.




At 34 I knew everything too...

I agree it is a matter of technique only. I also agree that it means nothing towards anything except your comment about tissue paper.

Your consistent argument has been along the lines of "this happens in ATA schools so all 300,000 of your students and instructors are all bad". It happens in EVERY school in every style at some point that there will be students that shouldn't have the rank they do. Trust me, it's being spoken to from the top down in our organization. I fully expect to fail a kid tomorrow night over boards on his public black belt testing. If it were anything else I wouldn't allow him to test, but he CAN break the boards, just not consistently. There are reasons but there are objective requirements. My partner and I follow them.

When my sprained shoulder heals I will ask my 16 year old 2nd dan student to use me as his attacker and videotape parts of the joint lock he's learning from me. I had to go to Little Rock for training in it. Maybe we'll also videotape some free-form groundfighting. It'll be a few weeks though and preferably after Worlds... FWIW, I cannot fit through a hula hoop but tried to do a dive shoulder roll through one last week because the kids in that class were.... Nasty sprain. Still did GF and sword last weekend though... hurts worse now. I'd like to be able to train and compete next month.

Better yet, come to Little Rock (can't be too far from you) and check out some of the protech training clinics the week of June 23. I am sure you'd be allowed to watch parts of it. They are still not fully resisting in the clinics, which are meant to teach the techniques so people can then safely train them with resistance at their own schools. Maybe the MMA clinic I am taking with my student will be full resistance?


Ask yourself honestly - were you training the way you are now 17 years ago?
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#395583 - 05/22/08 12:31 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

... My current instructor (ATA) wants me to only test for my blue, and will not charge me for that test. I don't know about you but that doesn't seem to me to be money hungry. He also is allowing me to try the school out for free until next month.(over half of the month) More money hungry ATA. ...




And there are ATA schools that will press a military family into cashing out a three year contract knowing full well they are being transferred in a month.

Both extremes exist in EVERY class of school. FWIW, the independent karate school near me is of the forced contract kind and we've historically offered free months, two month trials, and six month contracts... At least half a dozen kids train free at my school because I know they have no other option. I pay their testing fees to HQ.

I respect oldman sticking up for Brian and i started my argument with the concession that I was sure his skills were first rate. I agree that maybe it's best left to oldman to consider asking Brian to paint with a narrower brush.
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#395584 - 05/22/08 12:34 PM Re: what to do [Re: harlan]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

On a completely unrelated topic: I was driving to work today and almost ran into another car. Don't know for sure what it was...I looked left and right before entering the intersection. Must have been a blind spot.

We all have blind spots.




You can't fool me... that was pretty on topic.
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#395585 - 05/22/08 06:41 PM Re: what to do [Re: jeff_andle]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

At 34 I knew everything too...





Then you must have forgotten by now.

Quote:

Your consistent argument has been along the lines of "this happens in ATA schools so all 300,000 of your students and instructors are all bad". It happens in EVERY school in every style at some point that there will be students that shouldn't have the rank they do. Trust me, it's being spoken to from the top down in our organization. I fully expect to fail a kid tomorrow night over boards on his public black belt testing. If it were anything else I wouldn't allow him to test, but he CAN break the boards, just not consistently. There are reasons but there are objective requirements. My partner and I follow them.





It is a very broad stroke on my part. I have not been to every single ATA school in America. I do hope you are right about these things. But the fact is that many ata schools that claim to teach self defense clearly do not.

Quote:

When my sprained shoulder heals I will ask my 16 year old 2nd dan student to use me as his attacker and videotape parts of the joint lock he's learning from me. I had to go to Little Rock for training in it. Maybe we'll also videotape some free-form groundfighting. It'll be a few weeks though and preferably after Worlds... FWIW, I cannot fit through a hula hoop but tried to do a dive shoulder roll through one last week because the kids in that class were.... Nasty sprain. Still did GF and sword last weekend though... hurts worse now. I'd like to be able to train and compete next month.





16yr old 2nd dan! ok........ I look forward to it!

Quote:

Better yet, come to Little Rock (can't be too far from you) and check out some of the protech training clinics the week of June 23. I am sure you'd be allowed to watch parts of it. They are still not fully resisting in the clinics, which are meant to teach the techniques so people can then safely train them with resistance at their own schools. Maybe the MMA clinic I am taking with my student will be full resistance?





I won't be able to make it,sorry.

Quote:

Ask yourself honestly - were you training the way you are now 17 years ago?




Nope, thing always change and hopefully get better.

Edward,

Have you stepped outside your little box and trained elsewhere? Can you make an accurate assessment of your training compared to other styles and schools? I can. Step outside your tkd world brither, there is so much more.

"his chest was open, this is a common mistake."

LOL! It was a snapshot during sparring.
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#395586 - 05/22/08 10:25 PM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
VDJ Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
I too have had my own heated debates with Brian (just a couple of weeks ago on the its the fighter not the art topic, and no Brian, I'm not looking to get it started again ). Please do not mistake his direct and honest comments as arrogant, he has stated (and have I) what HIS EXPERIENCES have been of the ATA. I share alot of what he states as those have been MY EXPERIENCES. I have noticed that both Jeff and Penquin have taken a couple of their own shots with the same sarcastic tone (as we all have at one time or another). After my last disagreement with Brian I came to the conclusion that we would probably get along pretty well with each other and would welcome the opportunity to train with him, as I would most of the people on this site. So, shake hands (virtually) and move on and play nice. As my father use to say "DON'T MAKE ME COME UP THERE !!!!!!!!"

VDJ

Oh and Brian, VIDS ! I WANT VIDS! Do you have any posted ?

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#395587 - 05/22/08 11:11 PM Re: what to do [Re: VDJ]
BrianS Offline
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
VDJ,

Thanks for that!

As always, I can only comment on my personal experience. I haven't seen everything and sometimes my brush stroke is pretty broad. I do have high standards.

I don't have any vids posted here or on the net. The closest I could come is me and a friend of mine doing kata and a couple of sparring rounds in 1996 or 7 when we made shodan in goju,but they are at my house on vhs,lol.

What would you like to see? I have been wanting for sometime to make a video or two of some sort just to get feedback from people on this site although I know it would be quite critical. I expect no less.

As it is right now I injured my knee pretty severely during a judo tournament last saturday. I'm in an immobilization cast and hobbling around popping ibuprofen, not to kill the pain,but to make it bearable. So, when I get better I'll commit to making some vids. What would you like to see?

Sorry to slightly derail.


Edited by BrianS (05/22/08 11:12 PM)
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#395588 - 05/23/08 07:13 AM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
BrianS I have taken Kyokushinkai, TKD both mu do kwan and chung do kwan, and something similar to Krav Maga(Polish street fighting actually). Yes, more TKD then the rest, but it is what is popular and available.
With the pain, try meditation or at least a version of it lamaz. I use it everyday to get rid of my pain of my hernia. I have gotten good enough where if I took Oxycodon it wouldn't work because I already took that much pain off. I also have gotten good enough to make it look as if I am not meditating. This is a martial art skill in which I excel at. like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W1ym3yggR4 Just kidding.
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#395589 - 05/23/08 07:34 AM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

Then you must have forgotten by now.



I'm 44, I've forgotten about half.

Quote:

...But the fact is that many ata schools that claim to teach self defense clearly do not.




... not at the level that YOU want them to. Some not at all. A few have specialty classes that are beyond me.

Quote:

16yr old 2nd dan! ok........ I look forward to it!




He's close to my build - almost 6', ~250 pounds - did shaolin kempo for 7 years and has been with us over two. His 1st dan is kempo.

Quote:

I won't be able to make it,sorry.




I just looked at a map... That is a haul. Turns out my original instructor, now a Master, teaches a stone's throw from you. To your point, he barely teaches SD, although I know I would not attack him

I'll see if I can get some video clips and permission to post them.


Quote:

Nope, thing always change and hopefully get better.




I feel the same way. Perhaps collectively you see my point?

Either your expectation is that every school should train students to your level even as beginners or not even suggest its the beginnings of SD or your expectation is that MA should still be restricted to the elite that can train (painfully) at that level until they can cut it or quit.

To be perfectly honest there was a point between 1st dan and openning a school where I was simply disgusted by the quality of the new students I was asked to teach. Over time I realized what I resented was that I was no longer training full time and not that they were beginners needing attention. If you begin to teach - as a business or for free - more than you train you will see this.


Edited by jeff_andle (05/23/08 07:46 AM)
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#395590 - 05/23/08 07:44 AM Re: what to do [Re: VDJ]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

I too have had my own heated debates with Brian (just a couple of weeks ago on the its the fighter not the art topic, and no Brian, I'm not looking to get it started again ). Please do not mistake his direct and honest comments as arrogant, he has stated (and have I) what HIS EXPERIENCES have been of the ATA. I share alot of what he states as those have been MY EXPERIENCES. I have noticed that both Jeff and Penquin have taken a couple of their own shots with the same sarcastic tone (as we all have at one time or another). After my last disagreement with Brian I came to the conclusion that we would probably get along pretty well with each other and would welcome the opportunity to train with him, as I would most of the people on this site. So, shake hands (virtually) and move on and play nice. As my father use to say "DON'T MAKE ME COME UP THERE !!!!!!!!"

VDJ

Oh and Brian, VIDS ! I WANT VIDS! Do you have any posted ?




VDJ,

I was just coming to the conclusion that Brian and I had arrived at a middle ground where he's receptive to the thought that at least higher ranks in ATA get real training...

I started out accepting that he was a good martial artist and likely better than I. I'll go ahead and post myself doing Chung san (3rd dan poomse) as i videotaped it to critique myself. It's a poor performance.

There are not many (any?) serious people on here that I would not welcome the opportunity to train with.
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#395591 - 05/23/08 09:51 AM Re: what to do [Re: jeff_andle]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3331
Loc: Poland
I'm curious as to why tennis players need BB's?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Tennis_Association

I thought all tennis players wore white.

As for the ground work... surely that's for the groundkeepers to do.
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#395592 - 05/23/08 12:54 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

This is a martial art skill in which I excel at. like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0W1ym3yggR4 Just kidding.




That is funny.
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#395593 - 05/23/08 01:15 PM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
VDJ Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
Brian,

I'm hoping more along the lines of sparring or self defense. I really enjoy doing patterns but I am a bigger fan of applications, whether they be freestyle or taken from patterns. Maybe something along the lines that MattJ posted a couple of weeks back with Razor and myself.

VDJ

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#395594 - 05/27/08 11:42 AM Re: what to do [Re: VDJ]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
I don't know if these vids will help figure out what style they are teaching, but here is my son testing for his black stripe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76dvnjIxgpw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehj0DqmwyA0
yes I know he has an itchy butt.
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#395595 - 05/27/08 11:54 AM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
Dereck Offline
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Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Black Stripe? When I hear that I think of our Black Stripe which is a red belt with a black stripe that runs through it and is a 1st Gup; belt prior to black belt. I'm thinking this means something different in your son's school as I cannot see the the skill level yet for this level I'm thinking of.
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#395596 - 05/27/08 12:55 PM Re: what to do [Re: Dereck]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
they do white, white with black strip, yellow, yellow with black strip, and so on. It is the Ymca they need to promote at the end of every period which is around 7 weeks. that was taken 7 weeks ago.
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#395597 - 05/27/08 01:02 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
Dereck Offline
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Loc: Great White North
Thank makes more sense; thanks.
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#395598 - 05/27/08 01:34 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
VDJ Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
With all do respect, the camera work and poor lighting made it very difficult to view and I'm not really sure what I was looking at. If that was supposed to be a pattern, I did not recognize it as ITF or WTF. Thanks for posting though.

VDJ

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#395599 - 05/27/08 01:40 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Every student promotes every 7weeks?

Do they have to kiai on every move?

Kudo's to your son for his hard work!
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#395600 - 05/28/08 12:07 AM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

Every student promotes every 7weeks?

Do they have to kiai on every move?

Kudo's to your son for his hard work!




Some people teach beginners to do that because it's what it takes to get them to kiai at all.

black stripe on white could be basics (no poomse, just a sequence of the core techniques.
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#395601 - 05/28/08 11:57 AM Re: what to do [Re: jeff_andle]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
they call the second one Kata Kehone(I think that is how it is spelled) or basic moves. There is poor lighting for my little o camera. He is testing tomorrow. My wife and I hope he will get his yellow belt.
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#395602 - 05/28/08 12:01 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
'kihon'...at the very beginning.

Nice you have some video of this time in your child's life. In a couple of years, if he sticks it out, you will be able to compare it to future tapes...and enjoy watching the progress. They grow up quick. While it's nice to be supportive of every little step, it will be nicer to see the growth in a couple of years.

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#395603 - 05/29/08 08:38 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
BrianS Offline
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Ever make a decision Edward?
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#395604 - 05/30/08 06:52 AM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
penquin Offline
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Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
I am sticking with ATA, but I am going to be observing my wifes class. I figure if anything new pops up I could learn it. Everything seems to be review, for me at least. My next question is why is it that even next to black (either brown or red/black) their techniques don't look perfect? I know I am probably delusional about mine being near perfect, but theirs should be. In both the Y and ATA. Even a Tang So do class was the same. I know being a white belt for so long I had time to get my techniques better, but so of theirs are down and out right sloppy. Has the standards changed a lot in 20 years?
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#395605 - 05/30/08 08:04 AM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
trevek Offline
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Posts: 3331
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Partly because BB isn't all it's cracked up to be; possibly for reasons which might have been mentioned.
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#395606 - 05/30/08 05:50 PM Re: what to do [Re: trevek]
penquin Offline
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Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
I thought a BB is supposed to be really good at all the basic moves? You should have all those moves down really well so that you can (if you are going to) teach them to lower ranking students as an assistant instructor.
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#395607 - 05/30/08 06:13 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
VDJ Offline
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Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
Quote:

I thought a BB is supposed to be really good at all the basic moves? You should have all those moves down really well so that you can (if you are going to) teach them to lower ranking students as an assistant instructor.




There is always romm for improvement.

Example: Last November at a seminar with ITF Master Parm Rai who is the TECHNICAL DIRECTOR to (Gen. Choi's son) GM Choi Jung Hwa's ITF-C. He was telling us a story where he was warming up in his room that was joined to GM Choi's room and he was throwing some side kicks which GM Choi witnessed. He came in and started making corrections (this is a 7th Dan who was about to give a seminar on TECHNIQUE), he said that GM Choi made him 30 minutes late until he was satisfied with the technique!

Moral of the story, nobody's technique is PERFECT!

VDJ

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#395608 - 05/30/08 07:22 PM Re: what to do [Re: VDJ]
penquin Offline
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Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
Yeah I know pobody is nerfect.
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#395609 - 05/30/08 09:16 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
TKD_X Offline
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true, but it shouldn't be sloppy. there should be some basic understanding that leaves corrections down to little tweaks instead of big ones. that's just my opinion.
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#395610 - 05/30/08 09:27 PM Re: what to do [Re: TKD_X]
penquin Offline
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Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
I agree
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#395611 - 06/02/08 06:44 AM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
jeff_andle Offline
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Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

...My next question is why is it that even next to black (either brown or red/black) their techniques don't look perfect? I know I am probably delusional about mine being near perfect, but theirs should be. In both the Y and ATA. Even a Tang So do class was the same. I know being a white belt for so long I had time to get my techniques better, but so of theirs are down and out right sloppy. Has the standards changed a lot in 20 years?




Let's go back to "am I or aren't I" to answer this.. You varied styles and schools throughout your training so you never got the wall-paper or the pants-tightenner, but you put in far more training time than many of the junior instructors in these schools. You are looking at near BB and early BB technique from a point of view of a person with a decade of training.

They should be better than what it sounds like, but I am not there so I don't know how bad it is. I do know that there are many students that just do good enough but not good as they can...
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#395612 - 06/02/08 11:12 AM Re: what to do [Re: jeff_andle]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
So your saying Jeff I might not be as delusional as I thought. Cool. Now all I have to remember is leave my hands out when I am doing the forms.(I think it is good for youngsters, but not us old folks)
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#395613 - 06/02/08 01:57 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I am sticking with ATA, but I am going to be observing my wifes class. I figure if anything new pops up I could learn it. Everything seems to be review, for me at least. My next question is why is it that even next to black (either brown or red/black) their techniques don't look perfect? I know I am probably delusional about mine being near perfect, but theirs should be. In both the Y and ATA. Even a Tang So do class was the same. I know being a white belt for so long I had time to get my techniques better, but so of theirs are down and out right sloppy. Has the standards changed a lot in 20 years?




If your blackbelts suck, then that school sucks. There are too many two year blackbelts out there that suck,wonder why? The school is no better thaan the teachers.
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#395614 - 06/02/08 02:13 PM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
Supremor Offline
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Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


If your blackbelts suck, then that school sucks.




I completely agree with this. A school's BBs are like its advertising pitch. Go to a school where ther BBs show great technique and training mentality and all the lower belts and the new guys understand what it takes to be good at their art. If I go to a school and see a bunch of overweight, technically poor black belts, then I for one am not going to respect my seniors. And how can you run a class without respect?

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#395615 - 06/02/08 05:11 PM Re: what to do [Re: jeff_andle]
TKD_X Offline
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Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
Quote:

You varied styles and schools throughout your training so you never got the wall-paper or the pants-tightenner, but you put in far more training time than many of the junior instructors in these schools.





wall paper or pants tightener...
never heard those before.
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#395616 - 06/02/08 05:38 PM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
Quote:



If your blackbelts suck, then that school sucks. There are too many two year blackbelts out there that suck,wonder why? The school is no better thaan the teachers.




Actually it seems to be the majority of schools around here that the Brown or red/black belts suck. So I don't think it is the schools. I think it is the standards are lowered. I noticed this way back when I was a white belt and a kid transfered in and he was a yellow belt. In a sparring match I could better than he could.
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#395617 - 06/02/08 05:41 PM Re: what to do [Re: Supremor]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
Quote:


If I go to a school and see a bunch of overweight, technically poor black belts, then I for one am not going to respect my seniors. And how can you run a class without respect?



Overweight people can be really good at martial arts look at Sumo Hung. I do agree with the respect part.
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#395618 - 06/02/08 05:44 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
There is always exceptions to the norm,but I wouldn't put any faith into it.
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#395619 - 06/02/08 06:01 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
Quote:

I noticed this way back when I was a white belt and a kid transfered in and he was a yellow belt. In a sparring match I could better than he could.




For sparring, belt color means nothing. I've seen some colored belts that could kick any black belts butt. I can most time hold my own and I get my butt kicked as well by many; I dislike TKD sparring and avoid it when I can. But then take it to a grappling range and the roles reverse; I love grappling. In other words people are sometimes better at other training aspects so belts cannot be represented by the color they wear; or at least not in the TKD community.
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"IF I COME ... I'M BRINGING THE PAIN WITH ME"

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#395620 - 06/02/08 11:45 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

So your saying Jeff I might not be as delusional as I thought. Cool. Now all I have to remember is leave my hands out when I am doing the forms.(I think it is good for youngsters, but not us old folks)




God it took me a year to get my transfer student from shaolin kempo to extend a limb in his forms. Of course he and i both knew he was beyond the exaggerated techniques of that form, but he wanted to compete and it was required material...

more important is to remember NOT to do it in a reality based situation.
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sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#395621 - 06/03/08 12:34 AM Re: what to do [Re: jeff_andle]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:

So your saying Jeff I might not be as delusional as I thought. Cool. Now all I have to remember is leave my hands out when I am doing the forms.(I think it is good for youngsters, but not us old folks)




God it took me a year to get my transfer student from shaolin kempo to extend a limb in his forms. Of course he and i both knew he was beyond the exaggerated techniques of that form, but he wanted to compete and it was required material...

more important is to remember NOT to do it in a reality based situation.




You can't. If you practice that way, you will use it that way. Unless you have time to stop and reprogram your muscle memory during a confrontation. Ever heard the phrase, "fight like you train?" There is something to that.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#395622 - 06/03/08 08:26 AM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
You can if you try. I do mostly the exaggerated techniques, and I don't do it when I spar. I never heard of that phrase, but I heard of the phrase "if it ain't raining it ain't training" It is an army saying and doesn't apply to MA
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being smarter then the average man, my mistakes tend to be worse then the average man

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#395623 - 06/03/08 12:35 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I heard it this way, "if it ain't raining, we ain't training."

You truly do fight how you train. Muscle memory and pure instinct kick in. If you are just sparring you could,but that isn't real.

Thank you for your service Edward.
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#395624 - 06/03/08 09:25 PM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:


You can't. If you practice that way, you will use it that way. Unless you have time to stop and reprogram your muscle memory during a confrontation. Ever heard the phrase, "fight like you train?" There is something to that.




I train exaggerated chambers and rechambers to teach color belt forms because - in our system that is what we teach them.

I train chamberless hand techniques and other aspects of black belt forms within ou system when I teach and practice black belt forms.

I train restrained sparring with no excessive force and no techniques to the face for stop/point sparring,

and, I train (not as realistically as you do, but that's a matter of available partners) "whatever is needed" defense.



Yes, you fight the way you train, but you can train more than one way.




Though there is a very eye openning story that is passed around our organization about the police officer that walked in on a robbery...

He disarmed the gun-wielding robber and then handed the gun right back to him, exactly like he trained... fortunately his partner - two steps behind him - drew and shot the guy ...


may be an urban legend, but it makes the point.
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#395625 - 06/03/08 11:46 PM Re: what to do [Re: jeff_andle]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
News Flash!!! My wife now wants me in the Y with her. She just found out exactly how far it is to the class and test fees. I just hope I don't regret this.
_________________________
being smarter then the average man, my mistakes tend to be worse then the average man

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#395626 - 06/04/08 11:52 AM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
PowerFlow2 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 12/12/07
Posts: 8
Great, now can we end this incessent thread? It is pointless to go on another ten pages.

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#395627 - 06/04/08 12:00 PM Re: what to do [Re: PowerFlow2]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
Your first post and you insult me with it.
_________________________
being smarter then the average man, my mistakes tend to be worse then the average man

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#395628 - 06/04/08 12:14 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

News Flash!!! My wife now wants me in the Y with her. She just found out exactly how far it is to the class and test fees. I just hope I don't regret this.




Is it TKD at the Y? What association is it? Are you going to?
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#395629 - 06/04/08 12:58 PM Re: what to do [Re: BrianS]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
It is an Okinawan style mixed with TKD and Kenpo. At least that is what the main instructor knows. My first class is tonight. I don't think there is an association involved.
_________________________
being smarter then the average man, my mistakes tend to be worse then the average man

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#395630 - 06/04/08 01:45 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Do they have a name for it? That's kind of strange.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#395631 - 06/04/08 04:09 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
TKD_X Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
go for it.
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Are you ok!?!? It was an accident! No really! I promise!

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#395632 - 06/04/08 06:47 PM Re: what to do [Re: TKD_X]
penquin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/31/08
Posts: 130
Loc: Kimberly, WI, USA
The Name is Martial Arts. I know very original.
_________________________
being smarter then the average man, my mistakes tend to be worse then the average man

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#395633 - 06/04/08 06:52 PM Re: what to do [Re: penquin]
TKD_X Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
keeping in mind that it's at the Y they probably aren't going for this name or that name because the Y is what everyone looks at and the program is just a Y program.
_________________________
Are you ok!?!? It was an accident! No really! I promise!

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