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#395373 - 05/17/08 04:30 PM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: Cord]
Tashigae Offline
Mister Bendy

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 690
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia

Sorry, but I truly do not see humans as above or different to any other organism on the planet- I dont think we have greater rights than a rabbit, nor are we superior. A rabbit cant build a truck, and a human cannot instinctively build a warren of tunnels with their bare hands with the skill of a rabbit, nor can we outrun a lurcher.

I agree with you on that point. Sorry I was unclear: my intention was not to oppose human beings to animals. Actually you can replace "humans" with "animals" in my sentence without betraying my intent: I was more thinking about a live organism VS inert matter. Any living organism, pragmatically speaking, is but a certain quantity of certain chemical elements in a certain configuration. I wanted to point out what makes it differ from JUST that, because it has no material existence. Not unlike what makes a religion differ from a fan-club IMHO.


Why? Organised religion is used by believers as a tool to make sense of the world and what they experience. It is used by government as a tool of control. Church and state are inextricably linked.

Agreed - if we're talking about a traditional society. Pretty much any traditional society IS a theocracy. but it's no longer the case in the vast majority of today's government systems. Modern governments have replaced the old visceral need for humans to give their government some form of transcendance with other ways to establish their legitimacy and get the people going. Usually, this transcendant link is replaced by a set of principles that can vary greatly from one country to another. But that would be another discussion.


Jehovah, Mohammed, Buddah, the earth mother, The big bang, the force. Name your poison and pick a flavour, as long as it gives you the desired security in the random crapshoot of life, then it is as valid as anyone elses 'night time blanky'

Here I disagree. The point of a religion is NOT to provide "the desired security" (some religious movements are mighty pessimistic and won't make you feel safe at all), although it can have this effect too, more or less systematically depending on which religion and which follower. There again, I won't drift any more off-topic by discussing the true purpose of religions since that would be another discussion (and probably one against forum rules at that), so let's just agree to disagree here, if you don't mind.


And scientology was created by a (bad) sci-fi writer as a bet with a friend that he couldnt develop a religion by targetting pychological components of belief. Now messing with people on that scale is entertainment

Agreed again. That's one among a few reasons why I don't consider scientology an authentic religion. Even though, I wouldn't do anything to the stpid ba5t4rds that would be considered "sacrilege" according to their beliefs, no matter how silly the said beliefs can be (unless of course the restrictions imposed by their religion try and walk on MY turf). Same goes for the jedi wannabes.


Fan: abbreviation of fanatic. Which, in todays climate, causes more misery- fanaticism of Star wars, or of religious dogma?

Of course that would depend of how one defines "misery" , but as far as tangible damage is concerned, religious dogma obviously does. The question is double-edged though: which of the two has made humanity accomplish the greater things?


The concepts that lie behind Jedi philosophy are actually taken directly from eastern martial philosphy, and zen.

More power to jedi philosophy, but that still doesn't make it a genuine religion in my book. Most of the religions existing today come from more ancient roots (Islam from Christianism, Christianism from Judaism, Tibetan Buddhism from mahayana Buddhism + Tibetan shamanism, Shi'ism from Islam + Zoroastrism, Chinese buddhism from mahayana + confuceanism + daoism, etc.). BUT the said modifications all took place with spiritual purposes in mind. The modifications from zen Buddhism to "jedi'ism" took place with entertainment in mind. That's a capital difference as far as I'm concerned, but of course you're free to disagree. Intent, again, has no pragmatical existence, so if your system of thought disregards physically inexistent elements, that's another point on which we'll have to agree to disagree...


A kid sitting in seiza trying to empty their heads to be at one with 'the force', is practicing zen meditation under a different name. The process, and even the goal is practically identicle.

A kid trying to practice "jedi meditation" can incidentally be doing zazen under another name, or not. I'm not familiar enough with jedi breathing mechanics and philosophy to discuss that, and besides it would be absolutely pointless since I agree that your hypothetic kid DOES indeed have high chances to end up doing zazen. As for the goals, I care to differ: the point of zazen was NEVER to lift spaceships with the sole power of your mind.


It is the law of the internet that any topic that evokes strong reactions will inevitably end up using Nazism in an analogy, even when it has little/nothing to do with what is being discussed.

Sorry for that.
I was just trying to show how something with zero pragmatical incidence can be seen as a particularly atrocious act even by people who usually make it their philosophy to disregard such elements. (By the way, Trevek, you're perfectly right when you say "that isn't a religion thing": I didn't mean to imply it was; sorry for being unclear).


Whilst the above scenario would be an act intended to upset and shock, it would not cause any direct distress to the occupants of the graveyard- they are either just plain dead, or in the rapture of a good afterlife, or the misery of a bad one. Any way you cut it, they are otherwise pre-occupied.

Exactly. That was the point I was (clumsily) trying to make (not that I advocate doing that kind of thing, don't misunderstand me). Again, zero pragmatical incidence (unless someone else induces some, by reaction).


My opinions are not humble, they are my religion- I seek to make sense of the world for myself.

That's exactly how I see it, and your opinion will get as much respect from me as any other faith would (that's a lot, in case you didn't guess ).


If I get 30,000 people who see it my way, then I will have a codified religion.

As far as I am concerned, provided the spiritual intent of your philosophy is honest (and I'm sure it is. BRUTALLY so. ), you won't even need that many. Even just your cordish self will do.


Cords 10 commandments- stranger things have happened.


#395374 - 05/17/08 04:42 PM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: Tashigae]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
The thing is that most religions are based on some kind of history which is believed to be true by the followers (Noah's flood, white elephants fertilising women, Angels destroying cities, Chuck Norris being the first western 8th dan etc). Jedi history is known to be created by a film-maker and fan-fiction.
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

#395375 - 05/18/08 12:39 AM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: trevek]
Cord Offline

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.

The thing is that most religions are based on some kind of history which is believed to be true by the followers (Noah's flood, white elephants fertilising women, Angels destroying cities, Chuck Norris being the first western 8th dan etc). Jedi history is known to be created by a film-maker and fan-fiction.

Agreed. Most cultures have in their histories, accounts of a 'great flood'- be it Noah, Atlantis, or Tir Na Nog, its clear that early man experienced an incident of massive proportions, and in the aftermath, legend and religion absorbed and codified the disaster into their own mythologies. its an example of how religion seeks to make sense of things for its followers.

Here is the thing though, through hundreds of years of human translation and interperetation, the texts and happenings/people described within them, have become unrecognisable from their root source. You only have to see how a simple post on a forum can be chopped about and interpereted with agenda within a couple of days for it to go massively off topic, or be used in a way the original poster never intended. Now think about that post being manipulated over thousands of years, as it travells from language to language, and through the minds of millions- not just for info, but to wield power and control and wealth.

What you are left with is no less a work of human fiction than a film by George Lucas.

'Jedi' tenets are pretty simple, and very positive- finding peace with yourself, seeing all living things as part of one great whole, treating others with respect......its really not such a terrible code for people to aspire to live by when you think of it. Sure there are probably those who try and harness 'Jedi powers', but every religion has its share of crazies- better they spend time trying to lift a car with their mind, than jabbering in tongues whilst being bitten by rattlesnakes, or giving all their money to a preacher on TV, or strapping a bomb to themselves and heading into a public crowd......
You see my point.

In (a) god we are all free to trust, if that is what gets us through the day.
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'

#395376 - 05/18/08 02:24 AM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: Cord]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Amen to that!

(But the Darth Vader stunt is still pretty funny)
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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