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#395353 - 05/14/08 09:06 AM May the Force arrest you
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
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#395354 - 05/14/08 09:37 AM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: trevek]
Tashigae Offline
Mister Bendy

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 690
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia


...



...

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#395355 - 05/14/08 10:30 AM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: Tashigae]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
"LONDON (AFP) - A booze-fuelled Briton pretending to be Star Wars villain Darth Vader was punished Tuesday for a bizarre surprise attack on two Jedi fanatics.

Arwel Wynne Hughes, 27 -- who has a chronic alcohol problem -- donned a black bin bag for a cape and used a metal crutch for a lightsabre when he impersonated the Dark Lord of the Sith on March 25.

He then lept over the wall of a "Jedi Church" where Barney Jones and his cousin Michael were duelling with lightsabres while filming a documentary.

The fans of the Star Wars films established the "church" last year in Holyhead, northwest Wales.

Hughes hollered "Darth Vader" as he swung his crutch about, whacking Barney Jones over the head with it and punching Michael Jones in the thigh.

The Jedi are guardians of peace and justice, and the force was with them at Holyhead Magistrates' Court as district judge Andrew Shaw punished "Darth Vader" with a two-month suspended jail sentence and a 100-pound (195-dollar, 126-euro) fine.

Hughes got off lightly compared to the film version of Vader -- who had a hand chopped off by his son Luke Skywalker and was finished off by bolts of Force lightning from the evil Emperor Palpatine.

Hughes, who has previous convictions for assault, had drunk the best part of a 10-litre box of wine and could not remember the attack, his lawyer Frances Jones told the court."

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#395356 - 05/14/08 10:47 AM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: MattJ]
trevek Offline
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I wonder if he Maul-ed them too?
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#395357 - 05/14/08 11:21 AM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: MattJ]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
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Quote:

Hughes, who has previous convictions for assault, had drunk the best part of a 10-litre box of wine and could not remember the attack, his lawyer Frances Jones told the court."




*obi-wan voice* 'The liver is weak in this one'.

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#395358 - 05/14/08 11:27 AM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: Cord]
Tom2199 Offline
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Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 834
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i feel somehow safer to know petty crime comes in all forms
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#395359 - 05/14/08 02:49 PM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: Tom2199]
Dereck Offline
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Registered: 10/04/04
Posts: 10413
Loc: Great White North
FOXNews.com

Here is the article I read. I seen this on another forum I visit and I'll say the same thing ... it doesn't phase me one bit.

A church based on the principals of the Jedi from Star Wars ... no different then the idiots who have a religion called Scientology based on a science fiction book by a duffus named Ron Hubbard. Heck we should ban together and create a religion based upon this website and see if we can get it registered so we don't have to pay any taxes ... anybody game?

What do these people expect? They are Jedi and who is their arch rival ... Darth Vader. So for Darth Vader to go over there and to kick some ass they should have no problems. Why didn't they use the force to save their butts? Big bunch of losers.

As for Darth Vader and the guy saying he doesn't remember because he drank so much box wine ... don't buy it. Just fess up and admit to calling the Jedi's bluff and have a good giggle about it. You have to pay one way or the other so might as well have some fun with it.

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#395360 - 05/14/08 11:36 PM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: Dereck]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
Quote:

and punching Michael Jones in the thigh.




Honestly, that's the weirdest part of the article for me. Punching someone in the thigh? Really? You've got to be drunk to do that.
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We should all take ourselves seriously...and then crumple that image up and toss it out the window.

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#395361 - 05/15/08 12:48 AM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: JoelM]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Anyone who belongs to a "Jedi church" deserves to get whacked over the head w/ a crutch (appropriate weapon).

GROW UP! IT'S JUST A MOVIE!

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#395362 - 05/15/08 01:07 AM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: Dereck]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
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Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

What do these people expect? They are Jedi and who is their arch rival ... Darth Vader. So for Darth Vader to go over there and to kick some ass they should have no problems. Why didn't they use the force to save their butts? Big bunch of losers.




I dont think thats fair- i mean, if there were gangs of drunks dressed as Satan invading christian churches to beat up the worshippers, no one would be saying 'they got what they asked for', except maybe me, but I am warped and would find that highly amusing
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#395363 - 05/15/08 06:13 AM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: Cord]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Who Darths wins
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#395364 - 05/15/08 11:24 AM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: Cord]
Dereck Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

What do these people expect? They are Jedi and who is their arch rival ... Darth Vader. So for Darth Vader to go over there and to kick some ass they should have no problems. Why didn't they use the force to save their butts? Big bunch of losers.




I dont think thats fair- i mean, if there were gangs of drunks dressed as Satan invading christian churches to beat up the worshippers, no one would be saying 'they got what they asked for', except maybe me, but I am warped and would find that highly amusing




Cord, of all people don't you find this humorous? Christianity that has been handed down generation after generation and that is recognized as an actual religion is one thing and people dressing up like Satan would be horrible. However Jedis? That was a movie and basing a religion on that deserves to have your ass kicked for even being affiliated with it. Stupid people deserve to have stupid things done to them ... in a humorous way for sure.
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#395365 - 05/16/08 08:36 AM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: Dereck]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
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Quote:


Cord, of all people don't you find this humorous? Christianity that has been handed down generation after generation and that is recognized as an actual religion is one thing and people dressing up like Satan would be horrible. However Jedis? That was a movie and basing a religion on that deserves to have your ass kicked for even being affiliated with it. Stupid people deserve to have stupid things done to them ... in a humorous way for sure.




The only thing that seperates a cult from a religion is the power and the influence of those who believe. Chloramidians or the holy trinity, its all equally plausable to me.
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Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#395366 - 05/16/08 02:43 PM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: Dereck]
rideonlythelabel Offline
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Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1242
Loc: st-hubert quebec canada
Quote:

What do these people expect? They are Jedi and who is their arch rival ... Darth Vader. So for Darth Vader to go over there and to kick some ass they should have no problems. Why didn't they use the force to save their butts? Big bunch of losers.





Yes, but Dereck, if stupidity was ground for assault, you wouldn't spend a day out of the hospital.

More seriously; I agree that the Star Wars religion is ridiculous, it's not a good reason to beat someone up.

I like that he used the classic "I don't remember it, so it didn't happen" defense. It might work with your mates and your girlfriend, but I doubt the judge was impressed.
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patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.

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#395367 - 05/16/08 02:48 PM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: rideonlythelabel]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Probably not, but it might have got him a lighter sentence than, "I knew what I was doing and I wanted to kick jedi butt!"
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#395368 - 05/17/08 06:08 AM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: Cord]
Tashigae Offline
Mister Bendy

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 690
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Disclaimer: this is not a religious post.

Quote:

The only thing that seperates a cult from a religion is the power and the influence of those who believe. Chloramidians or the holy trinity, its all equally plausable to me.



Cord, that's a pragmatically true statement, but I question the competence of pragmaticism when it comes to defining any system of thought.

What I mean is, a human being is pragmatically a heap of organic matter in which a crapload of complex processes are going on, but the thing that really makes it what it it to us hasn't been found a chemical nor physical existence so far. I don't treat human beings as mere lumps of organic matter (and neither do you), because I sense/believe/been taught that there is more to my fellow humans than their chemical and physical nature.

I think the same goes for religions (I have utmost respect for the sacred, no matter what religion).

You mention plausibility: religions aren't about plausibility. They are a "technology", whose working mechanics involve simple belief at the lower levels and some more complex processes at the higher levels, and whose goal is usually what Christianity terms "salvation" at the lower levels (I won't discuss the true nature of what lies behind this term, that would take pages) and bona fide enlightenment at the higher levels.

Star Wars is a technology whose working mechanics involve a few hours of conditional belief, and whose goal is entertainment.

There's a lot more to both religion AND Star Wars than their mere chemical and physical nature (just ask a fan of either ).

That being said, I naturally cannot condone the uncalled-for violence undergone by those jedi-wannabes, no matter what hilarious form the said violence took.

All I'll say is, if I see a guy dressed as Darth Vader walking into a "jedi church", it will draw nothing from me but a good laugh. If I see a guy dressed as a representation of Satan walking into a church/mosque/synagogue/temple, chances are I'm going to try and stop him. I just hate desacration in any form.

Imagine a guy clad in an SS uniform walking into a jewish cemetary. Pragmatically that's just another human being, covered in clothes with somewhat the same chemical nature as any other clothes, just with a certain configuration of shape and colours out of a virtual infinity of other configurations. Yet I bet you that pretty much any of even the most militant atheists would object to that.

As always, JMHO.


PS. Since you mentioned Satan, here's an amusing fact: before this one, my post count was 666. This is the post that killed the beast!
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#395369 - 05/17/08 08:27 AM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: Tashigae]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Interesting post.

Quote:

Imagine a guy clad in an SS uniform walking into a jewish cemetary.




Like Sid Vicious in the Paris Jewish quarter in a swastika t-shirt, or Keith Moon in an SS uniform in Golders Green.

I get the point but technically that isn't a religion thing, it is based on racism and ethnic hatred. Ironically a devout Orthodox Jew might object to someone wearing/carrying a cross into a Jewish cemetery.

Getting back to the lighter side a little... these guys could be made now. They are, perhaps, officially the first martyrs of Jedi-ism.
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See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#395370 - 05/17/08 10:01 AM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: Tashigae]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

Quote:

The only thing that seperates a cult from a religion is the power and the influence of those who believe. Chloramidians or the holy trinity, its all equally plausable to me.



Cord, that's a pragmatically true statement, but I question the competence of pragmaticism when it comes to defining any system of thought.

What I mean is, a human being is pragmatically a heap of organic matter in which a crapload of complex processes are going on, but the thing that really makes it what it it to us hasn't been found a chemical nor physical existence so far. I don't treat human beings as mere lumps of organic matter (and neither do you), because I sense/believe/been taught that there is more to my fellow humans than their chemical and physical nature.




Sorry, but I truly do not see humans as above or different to any other organism on the planet- I dont think we have greater rights than a rabbit, nor are we superior. A rabbit cant build a truck, and a human cannot instinctively build a warren of tunnels with their bare hands with the skill of a rabbit, nor can we outrun a lurcher.

Quote:

I think the same goes for religions (I have utmost respect for the sacred, no matter what religion).




Why? Organised religion is used by believers as a tool to make sense of the world and what they experience. It is used by government as a tool of control. Church and state are inextricably linked.
Jehovah, Mohammed, Buddah, the earth mother, The big bang, the force. Name your poison and pick a flavour, as long as it gives you the desired security in the random crapshoot of life, then it is as valid as anyone elses 'night time blanky'

Quote:

Star Wars is a technology whose working mechanics involve a few hours of conditional belief, and whose goal is entertainment.




And scientology was created by a (bad) sci-fi writer as a bet with a friend that he couldnt develop a religion by targetting pychological components of belief. Now messing with people on that scale is entertainment

Quote:

There's a lot more to both religion AND Star Wars than their mere chemical and physical nature (just ask a fan of either ).




Fan: abbreviation of fanatic. Which, in todays climate, causes more misery- fanaticism of Star wars, or of religious dogma?

Quote:

All I'll say is, if I see a guy dressed as Darth Vader walking into a "jedi church", it will draw nothing from me but a good laugh. If I see a guy dressed as a representation of Satan walking into a church/mosque/synagogue/temple, chances are I'm going to try and stop him. I just hate desacration in any form.




The concepts that lie behind Jedi philosophy are actually taken directly from eastern martial philosphy, and zen. A kid sitting in seiza trying to empty their heads to be at one with 'the force', is practicing zen meditation under a different name. The process, and even the goal is practically identicle. Name your poison, pick a flavour.

Quote:

Imagine a guy clad in an SS uniform walking into a jewish cemetary. Pragmatically that's just another human being, covered in clothes with somewhat the same chemical nature as any other clothes, just with a certain configuration of shape and colours out of a virtual infinity of other configurations. Yet I bet you that pretty much any of even the most militant atheists would object to that.




It is the law of the internet that any topic that evokes strong reactions will inevitably end up using Nazism in an analogy, even when it has little/nothing to do with what is being discussed.

OK, I will play. Whilst the above scenario would be an act intended to upset and shock, it would not cause any direct distress to the occupants of the graveyard- they are either just plain dead, or in the rapture of a good afterlife, or the misery of a bad one. Any way you cut it, they are otherwise pre-occupied.
That leaves us, the living to act on their behalf.
You know that wierd family church who picket war funerals with signs saying the dead soldiers are gay and in hell and all that nonsense? Thats what it is- nonsense. They adore it when they upset people- they get off on it. They are RL trolls; and a guy goose-stepping around a war memorial would be the same- just an idiot. Remove the outrage and you remove his power.

My opinions are not humble, they are my religion- I seek to make sense of the world for myself. If I get 30,000 people who see it my way, then I will have a codified religion. Cords 10 commandments- stranger things have happened.


Edited by Cord (05/17/08 10:06 AM)
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#395371 - 05/17/08 11:19 AM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: Cord]
trevek Offline
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Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Can we start a Church of Cord? We can be Cordites.

It wouldn't be like the name was taken from a character in a philosophical MA film.
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See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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#395372 - 05/17/08 11:37 AM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: trevek]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

It wouldn't be like the name was taken from a character in a philosophical MA film.




Best. MA film. Everrr.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

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#395373 - 05/17/08 04:30 PM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: Cord]
Tashigae Offline
Mister Bendy

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 690
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Quote:

Sorry, but I truly do not see humans as above or different to any other organism on the planet- I dont think we have greater rights than a rabbit, nor are we superior. A rabbit cant build a truck, and a human cannot instinctively build a warren of tunnels with their bare hands with the skill of a rabbit, nor can we outrun a lurcher.



I agree with you on that point. Sorry I was unclear: my intention was not to oppose human beings to animals. Actually you can replace "humans" with "animals" in my sentence without betraying my intent: I was more thinking about a live organism VS inert matter. Any living organism, pragmatically speaking, is but a certain quantity of certain chemical elements in a certain configuration. I wanted to point out what makes it differ from JUST that, because it has no material existence. Not unlike what makes a religion differ from a fan-club IMHO.

Quote:

Why? Organised religion is used by believers as a tool to make sense of the world and what they experience. It is used by government as a tool of control. Church and state are inextricably linked.



Agreed - if we're talking about a traditional society. Pretty much any traditional society IS a theocracy. but it's no longer the case in the vast majority of today's government systems. Modern governments have replaced the old visceral need for humans to give their government some form of transcendance with other ways to establish their legitimacy and get the people going. Usually, this transcendant link is replaced by a set of principles that can vary greatly from one country to another. But that would be another discussion.

Quote:

Jehovah, Mohammed, Buddah, the earth mother, The big bang, the force. Name your poison and pick a flavour, as long as it gives you the desired security in the random crapshoot of life, then it is as valid as anyone elses 'night time blanky'



Here I disagree. The point of a religion is NOT to provide "the desired security" (some religious movements are mighty pessimistic and won't make you feel safe at all), although it can have this effect too, more or less systematically depending on which religion and which follower. There again, I won't drift any more off-topic by discussing the true purpose of religions since that would be another discussion (and probably one against forum rules at that), so let's just agree to disagree here, if you don't mind.

Quote:

And scientology was created by a (bad) sci-fi writer as a bet with a friend that he couldnt develop a religion by targetting pychological components of belief. Now messing with people on that scale is entertainment



Agreed again. That's one among a few reasons why I don't consider scientology an authentic religion. Even though, I wouldn't do anything to the stpid ba5t4rds that would be considered "sacrilege" according to their beliefs, no matter how silly the said beliefs can be (unless of course the restrictions imposed by their religion try and walk on MY turf). Same goes for the jedi wannabes.

Quote:

Fan: abbreviation of fanatic. Which, in todays climate, causes more misery- fanaticism of Star wars, or of religious dogma?



Of course that would depend of how one defines "misery" , but as far as tangible damage is concerned, religious dogma obviously does. The question is double-edged though: which of the two has made humanity accomplish the greater things?

Quote:

The concepts that lie behind Jedi philosophy are actually taken directly from eastern martial philosphy, and zen.



More power to jedi philosophy, but that still doesn't make it a genuine religion in my book. Most of the religions existing today come from more ancient roots (Islam from Christianism, Christianism from Judaism, Tibetan Buddhism from mahayana Buddhism + Tibetan shamanism, Shi'ism from Islam + Zoroastrism, Chinese buddhism from mahayana + confuceanism + daoism, etc.). BUT the said modifications all took place with spiritual purposes in mind. The modifications from zen Buddhism to "jedi'ism" took place with entertainment in mind. That's a capital difference as far as I'm concerned, but of course you're free to disagree. Intent, again, has no pragmatical existence, so if your system of thought disregards physically inexistent elements, that's another point on which we'll have to agree to disagree...

Quote:

A kid sitting in seiza trying to empty their heads to be at one with 'the force', is practicing zen meditation under a different name. The process, and even the goal is practically identicle.



A kid trying to practice "jedi meditation" can incidentally be doing zazen under another name, or not. I'm not familiar enough with jedi breathing mechanics and philosophy to discuss that, and besides it would be absolutely pointless since I agree that your hypothetic kid DOES indeed have high chances to end up doing zazen. As for the goals, I care to differ: the point of zazen was NEVER to lift spaceships with the sole power of your mind.

Quote:

It is the law of the internet that any topic that evokes strong reactions will inevitably end up using Nazism in an analogy, even when it has little/nothing to do with what is being discussed.



Guilty.
Sorry for that.
I was just trying to show how something with zero pragmatical incidence can be seen as a particularly atrocious act even by people who usually make it their philosophy to disregard such elements. (By the way, Trevek, you're perfectly right when you say "that isn't a religion thing": I didn't mean to imply it was; sorry for being unclear).

Quote:

Whilst the above scenario would be an act intended to upset and shock, it would not cause any direct distress to the occupants of the graveyard- they are either just plain dead, or in the rapture of a good afterlife, or the misery of a bad one. Any way you cut it, they are otherwise pre-occupied.



Exactly. That was the point I was (clumsily) trying to make (not that I advocate doing that kind of thing, don't misunderstand me). Again, zero pragmatical incidence (unless someone else induces some, by reaction).

Quote:

My opinions are not humble, they are my religion- I seek to make sense of the world for myself.



That's exactly how I see it, and your opinion will get as much respect from me as any other faith would (that's a lot, in case you didn't guess ).


Quote:

If I get 30,000 people who see it my way, then I will have a codified religion.



As far as I am concerned, provided the spiritual intent of your philosophy is honest (and I'm sure it is. BRUTALLY so. ), you won't even need that many. Even just your cordish self will do.

Quote:

Cords 10 commandments- stranger things have happened.



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#395374 - 05/17/08 04:42 PM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: Tashigae]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
The thing is that most religions are based on some kind of history which is believed to be true by the followers (Noah's flood, white elephants fertilising women, Angels destroying cities, Chuck Norris being the first western 8th dan etc). Jedi history is known to be created by a film-maker and fan-fiction.
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#395375 - 05/18/08 12:39 AM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: trevek]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

The thing is that most religions are based on some kind of history which is believed to be true by the followers (Noah's flood, white elephants fertilising women, Angels destroying cities, Chuck Norris being the first western 8th dan etc). Jedi history is known to be created by a film-maker and fan-fiction.




Agreed. Most cultures have in their histories, accounts of a 'great flood'- be it Noah, Atlantis, or Tir Na Nog, its clear that early man experienced an incident of massive proportions, and in the aftermath, legend and religion absorbed and codified the disaster into their own mythologies. its an example of how religion seeks to make sense of things for its followers.

Here is the thing though, through hundreds of years of human translation and interperetation, the texts and happenings/people described within them, have become unrecognisable from their root source. You only have to see how a simple post on a forum can be chopped about and interpereted with agenda within a couple of days for it to go massively off topic, or be used in a way the original poster never intended. Now think about that post being manipulated over thousands of years, as it travells from language to language, and through the minds of millions- not just for info, but to wield power and control and wealth.

What you are left with is no less a work of human fiction than a film by George Lucas.

'Jedi' tenets are pretty simple, and very positive- finding peace with yourself, seeing all living things as part of one great whole, treating others with respect......its really not such a terrible code for people to aspire to live by when you think of it. Sure there are probably those who try and harness 'Jedi powers', but every religion has its share of crazies- better they spend time trying to lift a car with their mind, than jabbering in tongues whilst being bitten by rattlesnakes, or giving all their money to a preacher on TV, or strapping a bomb to themselves and heading into a public crowd......
You see my point.

In (a) god we are all free to trust, if that is what gets us through the day.
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Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
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#395376 - 05/18/08 02:24 AM Re: May the Force arrest you [Re: Cord]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Amen to that!

(But the Darth Vader stunt is still pretty funny)
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Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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