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#395229 - 05/13/08 09:32 AM Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata?
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
The performance in this video is considered a winning one.

Anyone up for a little analysis? From a 'traditional' weapons standpoint...what's 'wrong' with this kata?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBZMMP4N7ik

(post is meant for fun and discussion...NOT bashing BTW)

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#395230 - 05/13/08 12:19 PM Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? [Re: harlan]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
He should use a bo and not a really, really, long pencil?
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#395231 - 05/13/08 01:02 PM Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? [Re: harlan]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5819
Loc: USA
harlan

I go with oldman on this one---his "weapon" seems to be extremely light (or the guy is unusually strong )

I always find it distasteful when people use light weapons, "toothpick" bo's etc in meets---and if I were judgeing you would loose points---I once offered a guy a choice between getting zero points from me or doing his kata again with an actual weapon (wasn't going to do it BTW--just wanted to see what he would do)

The one handed stuff is nearly useless---weapon was too light for the strikes to be all that effective--plus it would too easy to lose the weapon utterly--can't block or cover or use the weapon effectively with one hand.

From a technique perspective IMO its very poor use of the weapon.....too much "poseing" too many "blind" techniques, too many "static" postions.

Also "choked up" too much on the bo---reduced its advanatge by making it too short---there are of course times and sitations to do exactly that--but there was little that indicted that is what he was doing.

I also got no sense of any actual "enemy" present---he was simply going thu the motions, not actually "fighting" anyone....as such it IMO looked more like a floor routine than a "kata."

Guy was good, I just would have gone a different route.

All kidding aside, the guy would likely have beaten me in that meet---what I would do would likely look "old fashoned" and "staid" and really "boreing" to him and the folks at that that meet.

I can live with that.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#395232 - 05/13/08 01:22 PM Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? [Re: cxt]
ButterflyPalm Offline
Enigma

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 2637
Loc: Malaysia
He was doing Wu Shu in an army karate competition?
_________________________
I'll rather be happy than right, anytime.

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#395233 - 05/13/08 09:44 PM Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? [Re: cxt]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
Quote:

harlan

I go with oldman on this one---his "weapon" seems to be extremely light (or the guy is unusually strong )

I always find it distasteful when people use light weapons, "toothpick" bo's etc in meets---and if I were judgeing you would loose points---I once offered a guy a choice between getting zero points from me or doing his kata again with an actual weapon (wasn't going to do it BTW--just wanted to see what he would do)

The one handed stuff is nearly useless---weapon was too light for the strikes to be all that effective--plus it would too easy to lose the weapon utterly--can't block or cover or use the weapon effectively with one hand.

From a technique perspective IMO its very poor use of the weapon.....too much "poseing" too many "blind" techniques, too many "static" postions.

Also "choked up" too much on the bo---reduced its advanatge by making it too short---there are of course times and sitations to do exactly that--but there was little that indicted that is what he was doing.

I also got no sense of any actual "enemy" present---he was simply going thu the motions, not actually "fighting" anyone....as such it IMO looked more like a floor routine than a "kata."

Guy was good, I just would have gone a different route.

All kidding aside, the guy would likely have beaten me in that meet---what I would do would likely look "old fashoned" and "staid" and really "boreing" to him and the folks at that that meet.

I can live with that.




Wow. I couldnt agree more CXT. I couldnt even finish watching the video. Being a traditional kobudoka myself there was just too many problems. Im not going to turn this into a XMA bashing thread, but I just have a problem with this being passed off as a martial art.
_________________________
There is always someone who knows more, and noone who knows it all....

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#395234 - 05/13/08 09:47 PM Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? [Re: harlan]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

The performance in this video is considered a winning one.

Anyone up for a little analysis? From a 'traditional' weapons standpoint...what's 'wrong' with this kata?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBZMMP4N7ik

(post is meant for fun and discussion...NOT bashing BTW)




From a "traditional" sense what was wrong was that he was doing XMA-style long stick. He did it without it being flash and trash though.
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#395235 - 05/13/08 09:51 PM Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? [Re: jeff_andle]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
or should I say without it being as flash & trash as some xma...

It was a great example of what sells in movies though.

but for me, my dinged up rattan and waxwood staffs and the 1" thick red oak that adorns my doorway...
_________________________
sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#395236 - 05/14/08 10:08 AM Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? [Re: jeff_andle]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Okay. I'm trying to look at this kata.

1.It's so darn fast I'm having a hard time analyzing it. How the heck does a judge even evaluate this performance at such a ridiculous speed?

2. 'Tourney flash' aside (extended open sequence and odd closing), the techniques I can identify are jabs, 5 strike/godendon, ankle-like strikes, and blowing through a couple of blocks (side and I think an upper one). I'm completely unfamiliar with this 'technique' of wrapping the bo around one's neck, or what I 'think' are multiple parries or overhead swings used as an attack.

3. If there was a 'theme', I'd say it's 'attack'. I don't see tai-sabaki, or a lot of 'defense'. The kata goes so fast, it's hard for me to tell...but it looks like it only addresses attacks straight on.

4. I see athleticism, but not 'power'.

5. When I look at the kata, and the performance of, I try to 'read' the system. I don't see a lot in this one (feel free to educate me...that's why I'm asking).

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#395237 - 05/14/08 12:38 PM Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? [Re: harlan]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
Thats just it, there really doesnt appear to be a "strategy" or any kind of tactics behind his techniques. I only see flash. If we look at traditional bo kata, the techniques are basic, simple and effective. They are meant to teach principles of Tai sabaki, sen, and other aspects. I can certainly appreciate this mans athleticism, however as CXT mentions above; "give him a real bo and lets see him do the same kata." I believe that traditional weapon kata were based and created upon realistic uses of the weapon and not "performance" or "theatrics".

As far as what the judges are looking for I guess it would depend on the tournament. Personally I have only taken part in 2 tournaments during the course of my training. I competed in weapons forms in both and took grand champ in both. I performed Shushi no Kon sho and Sakugawa no kun sho at both tournaments, with a real rokushaku bo, whereas all the other competitors were useing weapon "props" (one guy had kama that weighed four ounces...) and they were doing flashy creative kata similar to the video above.
My simple traditional kata beat out their flash. Why? who knows. A few judges approached me afterword and thanked me for doing something traditional for a change. Maybe they were just old fashioned and had more of an appreciation for traditional kata.
I just feel that if you are going to take the time to seriously learn weapons, you should learn to use them effectively and not simply to impress. By effective I mean learning everythign there isabout the weapon including what it feels like to make contact with another weapon or person. I can probably guess that the kata performed above, if he were to actually strike a target with any of those strikes, he would lose his bo. People get real good at flipping and spinning their props, until they meet another weapon and realize that they cant open their hands to spin the bo when another bo is thrusting at them. Okay Im done ranting. Didnt mean to go this long.
_________________________
There is always someone who knows more, and noone who knows it all....

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#395238 - 05/14/08 06:33 PM Re: Weapons clinic: what's wrong with this kata? [Re: Chatan1979]
ttruscott Offline
Annoying ex-Member who tries to advertise on every post

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 31
Loc: BC Canada
Super light weight weapons and video flash - this is why I quit attending tournaments or supporting them.`

Ted

Surviving A Street Knife Fight: Realistic Defensive Techniques A video review. This is not about how to beat someone trying to kill you with a knife. It is about staying alive through such a horrible experience.

I've done a review of
The Fighter's Body: An Owner's Manual: Your Guide to Diet, Nutrition, Exercise and Excellence in the Martial Arts: a very complete / comprehensive study of the topic, well worth reading by any athlete in your family.
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"Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

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