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#395105 - 05/27/08 07:10 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Maybe he's doing as you've asked Raul - he's shutting up




Not realy Dan. But my time is better spent on other things than having an argument with people who seem to want to apply karate competition methods to S/D situations.

Quote:

Jude - is this the drill you do (or something like it)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLG2YpNerYs






Dan.

I respect the time and effort you have put in to your studies.

To me the last drill you posted missed out a lot of the techniques/ principles found in that kata.


If you would like to discuss this issue further then you could pm me with your e mail address

Thanks

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/27/08 07:35 AM)

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#395106 - 05/27/08 08:03 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Huh? Did I miss something? Why discuss techniques via PM?

Quote:

Dan.

I respect the time and effort you have put in to your studies.

To me the last drill you posted missed out a lot of the techniques/ principles found in that kata.


If you would like to discuss this issue further then you could pm me with your e mail address

Thanks

Jude



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#395107 - 05/27/08 08:20 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: harlan]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Huh? Did I miss something? Why discuss techniques via PM?






Because the guy is a teacher and had the confidence to post his findings. Certain other so called goju teachers who claim years in the study wont post their findings, and even have the gall to critiscise the work of a demonstration drill from a high ranking 10 th dan Okinawan goju ryu stylist when to me they clearly dont even know

A the content and use of a basic kata
B the intention of a high ranking trad goju ryu teacher
or how he teaches.

If Dan wishes to discuss the kata then fine.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/27/08 08:26 AM)

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#395108 - 05/27/08 08:24 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

Just to keep on topic. I think most techniques in drills in karate are made more effective by
The practice of hojo undo combined with modern weight training methods. Body conditioning is also done with the drills I practice.




Thanks for the clarification Jude. It seems to me that your approach is more "conditioning", less "technique" focused. By the latter, I mean that you would prefer to focus on conditioning your body than grooving patterns of movement.

In boxing terms I think you would be more a "slugger", less a "boxer".

Quote:

Perhaps it is better to apply the trad teachings to a persons own methods of training.

I think this way

This is how goju ryu is meant to be trained and some other strains of karate.




I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. You seem to be stating the obvious - traditional training should be applied to your own training. Who here doesn't do that?




Quote:

One of the reasons for the use of strengthening and conditioning could be said to be

(1) keep injuries to the body to a minimum

(2) rehabilitation of existing injuries

(3) the strengthening of the tissue to reduce repeat injuries.





Who would disagree? Unless you are, again, emphasising your preference for conditioning training over technique...

Quote:

Hojo undo strengthening the body ?

Part of goju ryu training yet it seems it hasnít been applied or explored and taken further or even used for rehabilitation purposes? or even trained?

Could I ask if you post a training log for strength training on the forum?




Again - not sure what you are getting at. Presumably you are lamenting the lack of conditioning training in many goju schools. Is this what you assumed from my embu? If so, I wonder what made you think we don't focus on conditioning (the traditional variety) as well as technical drills? Is it because you think we don't have the time? You'd be wrong. I've worked with chishi, ishi sashi, ude tanren etc. since I started training.

I don't find your approach objectionable Jude - there is room for arguing that most of fighter's ability comes from conditioning. Many karateka have appalling condition compared to, say, a boxer. Joe Lewis made this observation in the 70s. I've had this discussion with a scathing boxer a few years ago. The fact that he was a semi-pro and was comparing himself to an office worker who does a bit of karate in amongst a big workload and family obligations seemed unfair, to say the least. People have different priorities.

I might say that your posts (intentionally or unintentionally) come across as similarly scathing - even contemptuous. Your original post that motivated my brother, then me, to post here expressed the view, in bold, "I would not train with these guys".

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but one could be forgiven for assuming that the bold type-face indicates a warning:

Quote:

"I would not train with these guys and nor should you".




Why? Presumably because we are "nancy boys" who do something akin to a dance, not a real, tough, martial art.

As I said, I'm going to assume that this is not what you meant - but I'm not sure others would, so I'll have to defend our approach. In the meantime I would advise you to be more careful about how you frame your replies. You complained recently of "personal" responses, yet you don't seem to realise that "I wouldn't train with these guys" would be seen by most as a highly personal attack.

Just to be clear, I've spent many years on hard conditioning. However, I've invested a lot of time in technical training and development. Why? You're only young for a short time. In my case I have an inherited auto-immune disease of the bowel and joints. My body isn't what it used to be. I have to train smarter, not harder.

There is, somewhere on Youtube, a video of me punching telephone books with a particular drill (actually a conditioning drill when used with a partner - that is also on the net as a "tanren" although you might not see the connection). What most people might not be aware of is that this was my third or fourth training back after a lengthy period of hospitalisation where I lost 20 kg (I spent almost a year in and out of hospital and had about 7 colon surgeries). The video was filmed without any prep - I'm not one for "waiting till I reach my peak before showing what I do".

I could then, and can now, punch harder than I did when I was 20. I can apply bunkai better in sparring. I stress that I am not saying I am a good fighter/martial artist. I'm probably just an average Joe, truth be told.

But I'm a better Joe than I was when I was a young and far more conditioned. This is because of emphasis on technique" - on smart training.

Conditioning is important. But if you stress this at the expense of technical "softer" drills that groove subconscious responses (and I'm not sure if this is what you're saying, but your posts strongly indicate this), let me ask you this: what will you rely on when you are old, frail or (God forbid) ill?

I'm happy to move into the internal arts more and more. Even xingyi and bagua are hard on my body. So its more taiji for me, less of my beloved goju. But if you, or anyone else, thinks I'm just gonna be "dancing" from here on, you're dead wrong.

"Soft" doesn't equal "woosy".
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#395109 - 05/27/08 08:31 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Slow down Dan.

I said I wouldnt train with those guys because of the direction you are taking. The direction I am taking is more of the Chinese infleunce on karate with the Okinawan input.



Your assuming far to much in a negative sense. You seem to be using other peoples comments as they were mine.

If you want to discuss the techniques in the kata then fine
If you would rather not then thats fine to.

Regards that your thinking Im some kind of slugger, interesting.

Conditioning is important. But if you stress this at the expense of technical "softer" drills that groove subconscious responses (and I'm not sure if this is what you're saying, but your posts strongly indicate this), let me ask you this: what will you rely on when you are old, frail or (God forbid) ill?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/27/08 08:45 AM)

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#395110 - 05/27/08 08:36 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I must have missed this. Could you please point to the post containing the demo referenced?

thank you

Quote:

Certain other so called goju teachers who claim years in the study wont post their findings, and even have the gall to critiscise the work of a demonstration drill from a high ranking 10 th dan Okinawan goju ryu stylist when to me they clearly dont even know




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#395111 - 05/27/08 08:45 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Dan,

I think what Brian is referring to is kata application clearly being applied in free fighting. It is the holy grail of Kata application scholars. There are hundreds of videos of controlled 1-step bunkai application drills, but all the sparring/fighting clips show the punch slapping kick boxing you mentioned before. It is usually explained by folks that kihon isn't meant to be applied as shown in kata etc and that kick boxing is kata application in action, or something similar.

Regarding reversal of techniques I think you should definately start a new thread as you suggested. I will say that I am a believer in the notion that techniques were purposefully obscured to make it harder for outsiders to pick up the art from observation.

There's plenty of anecdotal evidence to support this, I even have a book where Dr Yang Jwing Ming reverses tai chi movements to find their applications. I look forward to discussing this in more detail though.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#395112 - 05/27/08 08:56 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Can I suggest you slow down Dan.

I said I wouldnt train with those guys because of the direction you are taking. The direction I am taking is more of the Chinese infleunce on karate with the Okinawan input.



Your assuming far to much in a negative sense. You seem to be using other peoples comments as they were mine.

If you want to discuss the techniques in the kata then fine
If you would rather not then thats fine to.

Regards that your thinking Im some kind of slugger, interesting.




Conditioning is important. But if you stress this at the expense of technical "softer" drills that groove subconscious responses




Not the case. I think both should have equal importance.
But to miss out one which seems to be happening to some strains of training then that isnt to good
Quote:



(and I'm not sure if this is what you're saying, but your posts strongly indicate this), let me ask you this: what will you rely on when you are old, frail





How old is old? App between 72 and 78 years of age and still performing like an atheletic 24 year old? With conditioning that most couldnt endure?

54 years old and immensly fast and totaly capable?

Teachings of trad karate.
Health and S/D in to an old age.

Quote:



or (God forbid) ill?






ill?

Try to avoid being ill but what could anybody do if they are to ill?

Jude

Top
#395113 - 05/27/08 09:08 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Shonuff]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

Dan,

I think what Brian is referring to is kata application clearly being applied in free fighting. It is the holy grail of Kata application scholars. There are hundreds of videos of controlled 1-step bunkai application drills, but all the sparring/fighting clips show the punch slapping kick boxing you mentioned before. It is usually explained by folks that kihon isn't meant to be applied as shown in kata etc and that kick boxing is kata application in action, or something similar.




Ahh - I misunderstood. Sorry Brian.

I have very little video of free-sparring. What little I put on has a few examples (Nenad actually does the shisochin palm strike in one - obviously it doesn't contact hard, which it would have to do to have the desired effect of the bunkai and stop the "flow" of your opponent).

Stand-up fighting is hard to apply properly without hitting full power (unlike Judo or grappling). I don't know anyone who would disagree.

Nor do I claim to apply bunkai "cleanly" - I get a bit in here, a bit in there. Sorry - I'm not good enough yet to show the "holy grail"... I'm just trying to get there like the rest of you. I don't say I have the ideal - I'm just defending my approach to pre-arranged sparring on this thread. And I happen to feel that what little I have posted of free-sparring reflects this rather than the "boxing" type karate/tkd you often see (complete with bouncing up and down - one of my pet hates).

Take a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tL9rGeKZGU.


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/27/08 09:39 AM)
_________________________
http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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#395114 - 05/27/08 09:15 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Oh I'm not assuming negative things Jude.

I'm telling you that your posts can be construed that way - although I said I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Look back at your original post and note the lack of qualification to your comment. I accept that you didn't mean anything negative. My point is, would other people understand this from your comments? Many wouldn't, so I have to defend my approach nonetheless...

If you don't think you're going to slow down a bit with age, you're dead wrong. And I'm still going despite Crohns disease when most people I know in the same boat have given up. So what can you do about illness? Modify your training...

I'm interested in discussing further your drills.

As I said, I am pointing out how your comments are capable of being read - I'm not assuming some kind of malice on your part. Written words can fail to convey the emotional intent - and people here seem offended by your words (whether they have interpreted you rightly or wrongly is another story).
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http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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