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#395075 - 05/24/08 07:47 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Shonuff]
Ronin1966 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 3116
Loc: East Coast, United States
Hello Shonuff:

Am.... torn by what I saw.

The angles & lighting of the seiuchin application make it difficult to see (easily) what they are doing IMHV. Not sure I like/loved several angles used actually adheared to their kata. If not...

The second, and third clips use the upper body a great deal. Don't know those forms but concerned the drills do not connect to the lower body correctly-enough.

Speed & fludity is fine, dare I say "correct" speed

Jeff


Edited by Ronin1966 (05/24/08 08:00 PM)

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#395076 - 05/24/08 08:23 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Ronin1966]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
The first 2 are basic kata and therefore basic embu Jeff - they teach basic tenshin/taisabaki that comes from the bunkai. The seiunchin embu has more subtle tenshin and more realistic attacks.

I've written an article on our embu and their anatomy that I believe is to be published here soon. That will help explain their purpose and methodology.
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#395077 - 05/24/08 08:51 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
your ignoring me because i asked you to put up or shut up? sweet!
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#395078 - 05/24/08 10:07 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: student_of_life]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Maybe he's doing as you've asked Raul - he's shutting up.
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#395079 - 05/24/08 11:00 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Ronin1966]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

Not sure I like/loved several angles used actually adheared to their kata. If not...




I'm afraid I don't follow you. The angles "adhered to" are taken directly from kata bunkai. The process of developing this embu took many years of painstaking work, so the "angles" were most carefully considered. In fact they were critical. If you followed the rest of the thread you'll note that we used tenshin/taisabaki from kata bunkai as a foundation. The science of tenshin is all about using angles of evasion and, of course, deflection and interception. I invite you to consider my article on this subject: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/05/taisabaki-and-tenshin-evasion-in-karate.html.

Quote:

The second, and third clips use the upper body a great deal.




As I said these are basic (as are the gekisai kata). I'm not sure what is wrong with using the upper body a lot - but the upper body use is consistent with the gekisai kata. For comparison note Toguchi's 2 person drills which have, without doubt, influenced our own drill (although we have tried to design ours to avoid some of the deficiencies we feel are presented in those drills, such as insufficient use of evasion and too slavish adherence to a kata that was never meant to be a 2 person form).

Quote:

concerned the drills do not connect to the lower body correctly-enough.




I'm afraid you've lost me. I don't know what you mean by "connect to the lower body correctly-enough". The individual techniques are standard bunkai. If they don't "connect correctly-enough" the difficulty you have is with the bunkai, not our sequence. I find it hard to respond to "off the cuff" comments such as this when the embu have been so deliberately and carefully designed with reference to Chinese, Okinawan and Japanese arts as a backdrop.

Needless to say, my upcoming article should provide more detail in the anatomy of the embu. You might disagree with our methodology, but it will at least allow a greater understanding of what went into their design.

Quote:

Speed & fludity is fine, dare I say "correct" speed



Thank you.
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#395080 - 05/24/08 11:34 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I forgot to add - the angles/bunkai in the seiyunchin embu are sometimes not what is generally taught in goju. Rather we have used the internal arts as a reference point. Consider the forward tenshin applied with sokumen te awase uke as depicted here: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/04/sokumen-te-awase-uke.html.
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#395081 - 05/25/08 02:12 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Jude - is this the drill you do (or something like it)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLG2YpNerYs






Just so you know, Jude has never explained one single drill, application, or anything else he trains in, he likes to spend his time trolling my posts instead usually. I'm hoping he really has put me on ignore as finally I will be rid of him!

Here are my thoughts on the Toguchi drill: it teaches positions, not techniques, you can easily take an actual Goju technique such as the shiko-takedown naka-daka ippon ken(think that's right) from Sepai and it fits in perfectly after the chudan uke-punch sequence, there are alot of parts in the drill like this, it just teaches positions for beginners. That's my view on it, it is a starting point.

Also, as far as taisabaki in the drill, this is where I think my training differs a bit from your approach, we do not spend much time doing any kind of circling movement as evasion, we practice the "getting small" and blending you see in many movements in Goju kata, we practice close in angles, and we practice going through and "splitting" the opponent in receiving techniques.

While I can greatly respect your work Dan, the circling movements and almost aiki-style evasion (sorry if you don't like the term, I can't think of anything better to describe it at the moment) do not fit into my own understanding of Goju Ryu. That said, there are many different interpretations of Goju and I suppose that I wouldn't have it any other way. All in all what you're doing really looks great and it's a shame we are so geographically removed otherwise i'd definitely be wanting to visit!

So on the Toguchi drill... I would argue that the drill for it's level is adequate when used, though if I had something as an alternative i'd entertain the possibility of dropping it.

Again, I do think it's quite decent for it's level, I would say the same for most of the Toguchi drills, they seem to be great material for beginners, but something to be moved away from beyond entry level.

Also when Ronin mentioned the thing about not being connected, i'm gonna hazard a guess that he actually meant the mechanics used, and not the content of drills themselves.

It's difficult for me to verbalize exactly, but I will say the way you guys move is definitely different from the way I was taught to move in Goju, obviously it works great for you guys though, is this maybe also the CIMA influence?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/25/08 02:28 AM)

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#395082 - 05/25/08 02:41 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I agree that the Toguchi drills aren't a bad start - they have a role for beginners. That said, I think our "beginner" embu are far more useful (but that's just my opinion, I might be wrong, of course). Toguchi's drills tend to be taught to more senior students in many dojos - long after anything other than conditioning is obtained from them.

What most people misunderstand with our gekisai embu is that they are strictly for beginners - the tenshin (evasion) is larger, just like basic bunkai where you move 45 degrees back, etc. This is actually quite basic.

If you look at the seiyunchin embu the tenshin is very subtle - moving in and splitting angles very finely indeed. In our shisochin embu the evasion is even more abberviated.

In other words the "aiki" style evasion is a basic: an enlarged or magnified movement. It functions just like most people's ippon kumite bunkai. However, just like basic blocks, the movements become smaller, more subtle in the higher kata. Understanding the basic tenshin lets you apply and understand far more subtle evasive skills.

In the internal martial arts this level of ability is taken for granted. Evasion is barely noticeable.

I don't understand what you mean by "mechanics" re Jeff's post. Suffice it to say I understand that our approach is sometimes quite different to others. That's not the same as "wrong". I personally believe that a lot of information has been lost over time (unavoidably). Our research has attempted to resurrect that knowledge. We might be wrong, but at least we are sincere and honest. And, I dare say, scientific and thorough.

Many posters (like the fellow who keeps trolling your posts) like to denounce our efforts, sometimes with flippant comments that reflect a political bias (ie. "we don't do it like that in our kaiha, so it must be wrong"). Nevertheless I always try to give them the benefit of the doubt. It doesn't mean that I am not inwardly [censored] that someone has casually dismissed my hard work and sincere efforts.

However I have often found that when I have let a person explain themselves a bit more, I've learned something I didn't know before.
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#395083 - 05/25/08 03:11 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
You'll note from my tenshin article the 8 principle angles of evasion. However this description is, at best, a crude description that permits beginners to begin understanding evasion.

For example, we tend to use terms like 45 degrees back/forward. This is just a label for a complex angle that depends on the nature of the attack and the experience of the defender. In reality it could be just a sliver of an angle. And also, it might not involve just forward at an angle, nor sideways nor any one of these: it might involve a compound movement that varies during the movement itself. So I have found anyway.

In our school we have attempted to take all these factors into account as well as the student's level of ability in structuring our drills and syllabus. None of this is apparent to casual observers - many of whom are just plain derogatory without offering any basis for their criticisms.

Your friend has, so far, been a case in point and it was his comments that brought first my brother, then me, to this forum.

Having said that, I've found this forum to be populated principally by intelligent, pleasant people who are willing and able to discuss things thoughtfully, so I am thoroughly enjoying the company and the input.

I am only too aware that there are many ways of skinning a cat, so I am interested in what others are doing. Even if I don't adopt what they do, it doesn't mean I wouldn't recognise a particular drill as useful.

I've been scathing of Toguchi's drills without intending to be. This is what happens when you focus on what you perceive to be flaws and ignore good points. Toguchi's gekisai 2 person drill is, as you point out, still useful. I didn't abandon it lightly, nor should anyone.

Both gekisai embu adopt bits of Toguchi's drill (ironically the parts that use more "upper body" - ie. the maegeri/empi/uraken/footwseep sequence and its defence).

I also like to teach beginners the basic Toguch 3 step kumite (zenkutsu, shiko, sanchin) which is very much like the opening moves of the Toguchi gekisai embu. It all has its place...


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/25/08 03:19 AM)
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#395084 - 05/25/08 12:40 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Our bunkai/renzoku/whatever drills after beginner level aren't the Toguchi ones anymore, mostly for the reasons you mention, the intermediate ones more resemble what I have seen in Taira's videos than the Toguchi ones.

Again, I actually agree with some of your criticisms of the Toguchi drills, but they also have some good points for beginners, such as forcing people (albeit in an artificial way) to actually move in sanchin stance while someone punches at them. They also have numerous failing, the biggest one for me being overcomplicated patterns and way too much redundancy if you actually use all the drills.

Anyway, my own questions and statements about your drills are just a reflection of the different way I have been taught and my own conclusions, I definitely don't think there's "wrong" in what you are doing, it's simply different from the Goju i've been taught. That's not a bad thing.

I hope that I haven't been one of the ones posting unqualified crap about your drills, for my part i've been posting because your work is interesting and has both big similarities and differences to what I do, and what i'm taught.

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