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#395085 - 05/25/08 03:03 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Dan, what causes you to see evasion in your kata movements?

i.e When you analyse your kata and devise your bunkai what keys or signals within the kata sequence do you interpret as tenshin/tai-sabaki?
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#395086 - 05/25/08 06:53 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Your input has been absolutely welcome Zach. You make good points and I'm interested in your approach. Just because we've designed a way of training doesn't mean it is the only way (or even the optimum way) of doing things. It is just our way.

We both know the kinds of unconstructive comments I'm referring to...

Dan
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#395087 - 05/25/08 07:47 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Shonuff]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Hi Shonoff.

With gekisai we take a very basic approach - we use basic tenshin (45 deg. back sanchin, neko, shiko etc.) as used in IOGKF and others. Some of the tenshin comes directly from the kata - eg. open door back into shiko.

With the higher kata the tenshin is in the embusen. A forward step followed by a pivot 180 degrees (saifa, shisochin) is a forward angled evasion followed by a pivot to face your opponent. The 'conventions' for bunkai 'packaging' are remarkably consistent in China and Okinawa. Turns are often larger for training purposes and because the kata needs to turn you to a specific angle. But the core tenshin (eg. step, then turn) is the same.

Consider my comments in relation to shisochin here: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/05/karate-and-chinese-martial-arts-part-1.html and in relation to seiyunchin re. sokumen te awase uke here: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/04/sokumen-te-awase-uke.html (note tenshin there is directly forwards, but emoloys an upward circular deflection aided by the raised front foot).


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/25/08 08:11 PM)
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#395088 - 05/25/08 08:35 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Of course, nothing says it as well as a picture...



Shisochin has a "open door" into zenkutsu in the kata that can also be applied with a step (ie. step, then open door). The "step" is always an option in higher kata as it is just a distancing thing. You'll notice that in the kata the "opening" movement is large - taking you through 180 or 90 degrees. On the other hand the kata application involves a very small move. You probably can't tell that my brother Nenad "opened" slightly in the above application. But he did, and understanding the tenshin as a "larger" move helps you abbreviate it and apply it in a more economical way.

So to answer your question, the tenshin is the embusen, but done in a more exaggerated way for training purposes and also just to turn you around in the kata...


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/25/08 08:41 PM)

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#395089 - 05/26/08 01:25 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
That was completely fake.
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#395090 - 05/26/08 02:00 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: BrianS]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

That was completely fake.




Eh?

Depends on whether you think I've included it a clip of a "real blow" or as an example of tenshin/taisabaki (the evasive move preceding the blow).

I thought it was quite obvious that Jeff "rode" the blow (he was "pushed" but threw himself backwards at the same time). But just in case there is any misunderstanding, I never meant to suggest that Jeff was actually hit so hard that he flew backwards. This was a demo of shisochin bunkai during a festival in 1993, and demos have to be a bit "theatrical" to be entertaining!

Other than that, the clip shows a legitimate and effective bunkai and a provides a good illustration of the subtlety of applied tenshin/taisabaki to which I referred in my previous 2 posts...

(You have to admit Brian that Jeff did a pretty good "crowd-pleasing" job - and we both know that you do still take a bit of a hard knock in these sorts of demos.)
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#395091 - 05/26/08 06:01 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Dan,

thanks for the reply, it was very interesting.

I find when looking into Shotokan kata for the same things that much of the evasion actually requires you to reverse the direction of the technique as it is performed. I beleive this is a deliberate part of the kata's construction and is what was really meant by "hidden meanings" of kata.

Would talk more but the Mrs is ordering a clean up day and Karate or not, she'll wup my ass if I don't get started.
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#395092 - 05/26/08 06:23 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Shonuff]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

I find when looking into Shotokan kata for the same things that much of the evasion actually requires you to reverse the direction of the technique as it is performed. I beleive this is a deliberate part of the kata's construction and is what was really meant by "hidden meanings" of kata.




We have 2 shorin kata in our system - our Fukyugata (similar to Heian/Pinan shodan) and Naifunchin/Tekki shodan. My instructor started with shotokan. Our tekki is the shotokan version.

I used to think the shorin kata required reversal of embusen to effect tenshin for bunkai. This underlies our approach to heian/pinan at an early phase.

However my instructor always said that the advanced application required you to move into the attack. I have recently come to agree with him. I believe that if you look closely enough you'll see "forwards tenshin" or "forwards at an angle" tenshin making sense of the movements. I believe the reverse is actually relatively basic...

I reach this conclusion by comparing the moves in karate generally with the internal arts where you often move into the attack and intercept it early. Some call this "slowing the attack". Moving away is called "speeding the attack". The latter has its uses but it presents the problem of closing the gap again. It also fails to turn the evasion into an attack.

I might be wrong, but that's my 2 cents at the moment...
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#395093 - 05/26/08 08:34 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Dan,

you are correct about applying the moves as shown without reversing direction, one of the main purposes of kokutsudachi in Shotokan is to slip past the opponent. However, another use is to void attacks by creating space which the opponent falls into, negating the need to close the gap and leaving them completely vulnerable to a counter. Knowing when and how to evade is what turns evasion into offence.

To me slipping and entering offer different opportunities to stepping and pivoting. I don't particularly see one as more advanced than the other as they are equally difficult to apply in different circumstances and if your aware of how and when they are each best applied you'll see that neither method is better, just a different tool. The key is knowing the circumstances that make one method more appropriate (which is not necessarily when it is easier to apply). Many Karateka seem to focus alot on what they are doing: how they move, how they generate power etc. Actually what how and why the opponent is doing what they are doing is at least as important and should be a major consideration of any bunkai.

Also as I've said, I don't view Shotokan as one system but more a collection of different systems each defined by a single or group of kata. Some rely more heavily on evasive movement (like Kanku-dai), others more on invasive movement (like Hangetsu) so things change the more specific the discussion becomes.
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#395094 - 05/26/08 09:48 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Shonuff]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Yes - there is room for both "making space" and closing the gap. In goju it is the same. I was speaking in very general terms that what might appear to be best "in reverse" is often not - it is just more subtle.

There are moves in goju kata for both, of course. The same must be true for shotokan - I'm afraid I'm no expert with shorin-based kata!
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