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#395035 - 05/18/08 09:27 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

As for striking to end conflicts you don't have to hit full power and permanently injure to stop an attack for real. That is why kyoshu jutsu and tuite are utilized as well. Using joint locking techniques and hitting pressure points enable this. Take the legs out and you take the fight out of your opponent. Take the arms out and he cannot hit back. Take the wind out and he cannot fight. I don't have many adult students. I am grateful the ones I have don't mind taking a certain level of punishment, but this is a full contact practice after all. For me its like playing american football and never having any sort of hard contact practices. Yes there is a chance of injury, but that's the risks of our practice.




I don't disagree Marcel. There is less difference between us than you think. My point about "contact" was made in the context of your argument that yakusoku drills fill the void that embu fill. I feel that they do not, because your partner doesn't get the chance to resist your counter by deflecting it. And saying that you've "stopped" your opponent "cold" so that resistance in the form I've talked about is impossible is, IMHO, not realistic in the dojo.

If you tried to apply a tuide application on me after my attack, I'd do my best to resist and punch you at the same time. I wouldn't just let you. This is where embu comes into its own. It teaches you "how" to resist effectively - using kata bunkai.

BTW - in most of our embu one side attempts to perform a tuide, but the other side stops/thwarts it. This teaches you how to escape from a tuide application. On the other hand our tuide lock flows and bunkai let us apply them as you have suggested.

And I agree that a bit of contact is good.
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#395036 - 05/18/08 10:08 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

I think we are talking about two seperate drills.

The drill I am refering to is for effective kata bunkia in other words what is available in that kata and drilling what is available .
Ingraining and keeping the techniques to memory. To me they have a lot of use.

But as I said it is a drill. Not free fighting or reality training.



Either way that is what I use them for.

Jude




I assume you're talking about the Toguchi drill. If you are, my criticisms remain. It is not bunkai - it is a literal superimposition of attacks on the kata template. The kata was never designed to be a 2 person form. I've had very little "value" from this form, despite giving it a good go for almost 2 decades.

Sorry Jude - to me we're talking yesterday's technology. If you want something useful and don't like our embu, look at Pat McCarthy's 2 person drills by way of comparison.
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#395037 - 05/18/08 10:25 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Dan, in case you missed it, I was wondering if you have practiced the Toguchi Saifa bunkai, do you find it as undesirable as the gekisai one?

Personally I like bits of it, so that's what we've ended up practicing. It is as "artificial" as the other in some ways I suppose, but i've found that when broken into chunks some of the individual pieces are quite nice.

Anyway in general I concede I have to agree about most of the Toguchi drills, I was trained with some of these in beginning and we've ended up dropping most of them.

I still like Kiso kumite Nidan alot for beginners though.

I am ok with Gekisai drill as well if done correctly and with the right intent, though like I say your criticisms of it have some merit.



Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/18/08 10:37 PM)

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#395038 - 05/18/08 11:19 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Yes Zach, I did Toguchi's saifa drill years ago - I no longer recall its exact sequence. I also recall liking bits of it, but that it suffered from the same problems as the gekisai one; ie. the superimposition of attacks on a the kata template.

I have written an article on our embu describing their anatomy and purpose (still have to take some photos). Essentially they are built from the "ground up" on tenshin/taisabaki inherent in the kata bunkai.

This seemed to be sorely lacking in most "kiso kumite", sandan/yondan/godan kumite or the 2 person versions of kata I've seen around.

Our gekisai embu are fairly basic because the tenshin/taisabaki is basic in that kata. However these are necessary because you are, at that level, just learning the art of evasion. You'll see elements of Toguchi's drill in our gekisai embu (as there are elements of Toguchi's saifa drill in our saifa embu).

You'll also notice that the gekisai 2 embu is noticeably more advanced than the gekisai 1 embu. If you look at the seiyunchin one you'll see more realistic attacks (like those HAPV addresses) and more realistic defences, so that the embu does look more like fighting with the more sophisticated kata.

What I see embu doing is training you to apply your kata bunkai in sparring/fighting. I think this aspect is sorely missing in karate; most people do their kata and basics, then jump around doing faux boxing moves. There is no "bridge" between ippon/yakusoku kumite and free sparring.

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#395039 - 05/18/08 11:25 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Believe it or not, your seiunchin one looks a fair bit like the one my teacher does (unfortunately I don't know it yet).

I agree 100% on what you state the purpose of this training is.

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#395040 - 05/19/08 12:19 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I wonder whether he wasn't inspired by our video? I designed that from scratch about 6 years ago and at the time nothing like it was "out there"...
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#395041 - 05/19/08 03:05 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I definitely wasn't intending to say I thought that the drill came from yours, and I doubt it does.... Anyway, i've sent you a pm.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/19/08 03:17 AM)

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#395042 - 05/19/08 03:38 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I'd like to add that (imo obviously) having a good methodology for understanding kata bunkai will end up in different people having similar but individualized results, and that was my intention by mentioning the similarity...there is a little similarity but they are far from the same drill.

You're welcome to continue in the belief that no one anywhere does anything like what you do though.



Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/19/08 03:39 AM)

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#395043 - 05/19/08 04:30 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Indeed Zach - others will cover the same ground. It would be highly unusual for my brother and I to be the only ones pursuing the same research. Pat McCarthy is just one who has formed similar views over the same period (different focus and result, but broadly in agreement).

However our drills and their bunkai do have their individual "stamp" - I'd know if someone copied them!

I wouldn't mind - imitation is the sincerest form of flattery as we all know. But I hope my own lack of "self-promotion" for all these years hasn't resulted in someone else claiming my (or my brother's) work as their own! That wold be awful just from a personal perspective.

On the other hand it wouldn't affect me materially - I haven't even tried to sell myself on the "seminar" or "video" circuit nor do I have a particular interest in doing so (I doubt my health would allow it).

My brother once held a few seminars during a trip to Europe, but only for our students (our London branch) and some "friendly" dojos that we are in touch with.

I'm sure your sensei has his own ideas sources and drills. He probably thinks he can and has done a lot better than we have! This is only natural.
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#395044 - 05/19/08 03:13 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539



Quote:



I assume you're talking about the Toguchi drill. If you are, my criticisms remain.




Nope, but I will look at them though.
Quote:


It is not bunkai - it is a literal superimposition of attacks on the kata template. The kata was never designed to be a 2 person form.




I cant realy see that.

Quote:



I've had very little "value" from this form, despite giving it a good go for almost 2 decades.




Well I actualy found the opposite. Plenty of value.





Sorry Jude - to me we're talking yesterday's technology.




The stuff I am doing I wouldnt know if it was yesterdays technology but regardless of that it works.
Quote:


If you want something useful and don't like our embu,




Its not a case of dis-liking more its a case of a different direction.
Quote:


look at Pat McCarthy's 2 person drills by way of comparison.




I quite like some of his drills. I suppose one day when his style is more wide spread I would go and train.

I would still keep doing what I am doing.
Its a different direction. How can I say? More of the Chinese infleunce with the Okinawan input. Which realy is a contrast to what I would normaly do.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/19/08 03:15 PM)

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