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#395025 - 05/18/08 08:19 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

You are right. Some Yakusoku kumites are this way. However, when training them properly for combat, this is not the case. Its kind of like in kata. The "end" is not necessarily the end of the conflict. Sometimes it is just the follow through of the end. If you look to the transitional movements, you will see the fight enders. The rest is just icing on the cake. I think the no resistance and no hard contact thing is the reason why for many the "finishing" moves of yakusoku kumite meet with no resistance. Unless you do damage to your opponent you cannot finish them if they are resisting. A little contact in the right places will really take the fight out of most.




This is great in theory - hit your opponent hard enough and the rest of your finishing moves follow. I agree that this is good training. However I cannot see how it addresses in any shape or form my fundamental point: the drill is static. It ends. It might end for a good reason, but it is static at the beginning and at the end. At no point do you learn how to deflect an attack while you are mid kick, for example. Every counter (except the counters in the middle of a 3 point drill) either arise from a standing start or they meet with no resistance in the form of an attempted deflection. By resistance I mean that your opponent tries to block or defend your counter. This doesn't happen. We both know that the "loser" in the drill accepts your counters like a stunned mullet, even though he isn't stunned. As I said earlier, you'd have to counter with full power (and injure your students) to make this "realistic". And he/she would have to have the option of deflecting your attacks (as he or she would no doubt want to do if you were hitting full power).

Most karate ippon works on the principle of committed, "hito zuki, hito geri" attacks - single punch/kick, certain death. The attacks are very committed, and this allows the defender to perform defences suited to committed attacks.

In my experience of real combat, fully committed blows are not that common - especially not the kind you see in ippon.

Again, this doesn't mean ippon/yakusoku doesn't have a purpose. It just doesn't cover all the bases IMHO
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#395026 - 05/18/08 08:28 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

The two man flow drill I have been taught and I drill for gekisai, is more of where, what techniques are available, and when and how to apply the techniques, and to ingrain them. It is like techniques to put the person in that situation and then carry on to the next set of techniques ending with the same result eg partner in a bad situation...

In two man partner drill training from said kata.
After a set of grab / parry opposite arm /redirect /pull and off balance, simulated strike to the side of the face/ jaw and the hand is now cupped around the testicles indicating ripping them after they would have been struck I think the partner would get the feeling of being unbalanced and that it is nearly game over , then the flow continues.

My kind of training . Dominant position where the other cant do to much because of one reason or another.




I've previously discussed this drill Jude. It is longer than our embu for gekisai. It follows the kata too literally so you wonder why you wouldn't just do the kata.

The attacks are highly unrealistic and require learning a completely separate (lengthy) sequence.

The drill follows the kata so literally it doesn't feature any of the tenshin/taisabaki that comes from the standard bunkai.

The drill you speak of is, IMHO, so formal and artificial as to be of marginal value at best. At worst it is a time waster. I know - I did it for the better part of 2 decades.

If you're going to do 2 person drills, they should value add (like Pat McCarthy's HAPV). They shouldn't be the kata "dressed up a little" for the sake of it.
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#395027 - 05/18/08 08:31 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: shoshinkan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

'True intent of harm cannot be replicated in the dojo'

yes I agree certainly with that,

I think my point is that flow drills deliver less intent than say commited ippon kumite type drills, they simply have to otherwise they cease to flow.

(they also have a reliance on both parties being skilled in delivery and receipt of force, hence another step away from an untrained/low trained aggresor).

Granted I see benefit in both practices and im certianly not knocking the method as it's something I work fairly regulary anyhow,

albeit simpler flow drills for specific strategy, tactics and techniques (to alow greater semi fixed options) rather than an entire kata strung together, and certianly against common methods of assault and delivery.

It's one of the reasons Kamate (ready hands) is a major concept in the classical kata in my opinion, another core principle is that of Honto (True) Kata Bunkai which I have spoken about before.

I certainly see merit in how Dan Sensei presents his excellent work and training, I just don't agree fully with the presentation of full kata drills.




This post sums up the pros and cons of flow drills perfectly, IMHO. Whether you want full kata flow drills is a matter of opinion and taste. We do them, but I can see why others wouldn't. Well said.
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#395028 - 05/18/08 08:45 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Dan, just out of curiosity, did you also practice the Toguchi Saifa bunkai drill? What did you think of it in comparison?

I do agree somewhat with your criticism of the Toguchi drills, which is why the only one we do is gekisai, and parts of the Saifa one. However i'd be interested in your opinion on it if it's something you practiced.

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#395029 - 05/18/08 08:59 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

One important thing is that training never really is perfect. For example ippon kumite is the goal, but if an attacker strikes with a six strike combo and you are unable to stop him at one you don't stop, but disrupt the opponent when you are able and continue fighting until one is immobilized, put down, or maybe the fight carries out of the dojo into the street (slight exaggeration) so lets just call it threat neutralization. But you get my meaning. Even in failure to execute the "ippon" kumite drill you are learning about real timing for fighting. We don't not allow the "uke" to continue to fight back. In fact, that is where the drill's effectiveness comes in. It teaches how to stop a resisting and persistent attacker. In fact, the techniques don't really work right if the attacker isn't resisting and trying to attack you.




I take it you're thinking of a multiple (eg. 6 strike) attack, where you attempt to stop the attacker at his first attack. Can he/she vary his/her response and try to deflect your counter or does he/she persist in pursuing the original 6 strike plan? If it is the latter, you're talking about a good drill, but one that also has severe limitations. If you're talking about the latter it is "semi-free" sparring. There is room for semi-free and free sparring, but it is hardly a forum for "grooving" bunkai.




He can do whatever he wants. However, if he disengages and gives me room to escape I "win" remember, this is SD training.
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#395030 - 05/18/08 08:59 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
I think we are talking about two seperate drills.

The drill I am refering to is for effective kata bunkia in other words what is available in that kata and drilling what is available .
Ingraining and keeping the techniques to memory. To me they have a lot of use.

But as I said it is a drill. Not free fighting or reality training.



Either way that is what I use them for.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/18/08 09:05 PM)

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#395031 - 05/18/08 09:08 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

You are right. Some Yakusoku kumites are this way. However, when training them properly for combat, this is not the case. Its kind of like in kata. The "end" is not necessarily the end of the conflict. Sometimes it is just the follow through of the end. If you look to the transitional movements, you will see the fight enders. The rest is just icing on the cake. I think the no resistance and no hard contact thing is the reason why for many the "finishing" moves of yakusoku kumite meet with no resistance. Unless you do damage to your opponent you cannot finish them if they are resisting. A little contact in the right places will really take the fight out of most.




This is great in theory - hit your opponent hard enough and the rest of your finishing moves follow. I agree that this is good training. However I cannot see how it addresses in any shape or form my fundamental point: the drill is static. It ends. It might end for a good reason, but it is static at the beginning and at the end. At no point do you learn how to deflect an attack while you are mid kick, for example. Every counter (except the counters in the middle of a 3 point drill) either arise from a standing start or they meet with no resistance in the form of an attempted deflection. By resistance I mean that your opponent tries to block or defend your counter. This doesn't happen. We both know that the "loser" in the drill accepts your counters like a stunned mullet, even though he isn't stunned. As I said earlier, you'd have to counter with full power (and injure your students) to make this "realistic". And he/she would have to have the option of deflecting your attacks (as he or she would no doubt want to do if you were hitting full power).

Most karate ippon works on the principle of committed, "hito zuki, hito geri" attacks - single punch/kick, certain death. The attacks are very committed, and this allows the defender to perform defences suited to committed attacks.

In my experience of real combat, fully committed blows are not that common - especially not the kind you see in ippon.

Again, this doesn't mean ippon/yakusoku doesn't have a purpose. It just doesn't cover all the bases IMHO




Dan, if your definition of static is the drill ends, then I guess you are still doing your flow drills as you write. EVERY drill ends, right? And if we are talking about it theoretically ends, then if you opponent is never put down, immobilized, or disengages, then theoretically the ippon kumite could never end.

As for striking to end conflicts you don't have to hit full power and permanently injure to stop an attack for real. That is why kyoshu jutsu and tuite are utilized as well. Using joint locking techniques and hitting pressure points enable this. Take the legs out and you take the fight out of your opponent. Take the arms out and he cannot hit back. Take the wind out and he cannot fight. I don't have many adult students. I am grateful the ones I have don't mind taking a certain level of punishment, but this is a full contact practice after all. For me its like playing american football and never having any sort of hard contact practices. Yes there is a chance of injury, but that's the risks of our practice.
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Dulaney Dojo

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#395032 - 05/18/08 09:15 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I recall doing Toguchi's saifa drill years ago, but I no longer recall the pattern/sequence.

I recall it followed the same methodology which I believe to be "flawed". I say "flawed" but I don't mean this in disrespect. Everything is flawed. I have tried to improve the technology through a systematic and scientific approach based on my experience. I feel my drills are an advancement on Toguchi's, although I know this is a controversial view. I admire Toguchi's contributions greatly, but to assume that development should cease with the masters of old is, to me, absurd.

My brother and I have designed our embu because of a perceived need, not just for the sake of creating something. We are actually quite traditional in most respects and have the same skepticism about "new" things that many others share.

I felt it was important to explain and defend our approach in this discussion because we have invested so much time and effort in development and because I feel the embu "add value". If others are inspired to follow suit with their own drills (or learn ours) that's okay, but that isn't my busineass. If others choose not to use flow drills, that's okay too. So long as people understand our methodology and intention - it is too easy to misunderstand when all you see are some videos on Youtube (posted for the benefit of our students without any detailed explanation).
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#395033 - 05/18/08 09:18 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Oh yes Marcel - every drill ends.

The question is, has every technique been done in a continuum? We can cycle through the entire flow drill once or twice or more. But all the techniques have been performed in a dynamic environment at least once - including the "opening" move.

In yakusoku drills the first and last moves are just that - they are never "in the middle".

My point is that the embu can go on (as long as you need them to), not that they do go on.


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/18/08 09:40 PM)
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#395034 - 05/18/08 09:22 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:




As for striking to end conflicts you don't have to hit full power and permanently injure to stop an attack for real. That is why kyoshu jutsu and tuite are utilized as well. Using joint locking techniques and hitting pressure points enable this. Take the legs out and you take the fight out of your opponent. Take the arms out and he cannot hit back. Take the wind out and he cannot fight.




And those techniques along with others are in the drills I practice .The drills keep them in the brain.

Jude

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