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#395015 - 05/18/08 02:05 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
I have been reading this thread and trying to keep up either way here is my take.



The techniques from gekisai kata could stop a S/D situation. There are some tasty techniques.


To my mind the techniques taught in gekisai carry on to sepai. Both kata's can have the same techniques.

The two man flow drill I have been taught and I drill for gekisai, is more of where, what techniques are available, and when and how to apply the techniques, and to ingrain them. It is like techniques to put the person in that situation and then carry on to the next set of techniques ending with the same result eg partner in a bad situation.


Quote:


Unless you actually hit your partner, you’re not actually stopping him or her “cold’ either.





In two man partner drill training from said kata.
After a set of grab / parry opposite arm /redirect /pull and off balance, simulated strike to the side of the face/ jaw and the hand is now cupped around the testicles indicating ripping them after they would have been struck I think the partner would get the feeling of being unbalanced and that it is nearly game over , then the flow continues.

My kind of training . Dominant position where the other cant do to much because of one reason or another

So in a way I suppose it is a flow method to aquire, be aware what is available, and in grain the techniques but has the element of finishing techniques, with out injuring anybody.

But it is a set drill not realy free sparring as such.

Jude



Edited by jude33 (05/18/08 02:17 PM)

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#395016 - 05/18/08 02:37 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Gekisai Dai Ichi and Sepai as in both kata's

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#395017 - 05/18/08 03:56 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Jim,

The flow in a flow drill is not in the rhythm/tempo of the movements but in the fact that it doesn't stop. In my post above I detail how both intent and variation with specific reference to the timing and tempo of the movements can be incorporated into the techniques of the drill. True intent of harm cannot be replicated in the dojo and is a seperate issue from any drill, but full power strikes aimed at the opponent are exactly that. Also the fact that you are training a pre-arranged sequence usually means people are more comfortable going harder as they know the opponent will defend. the skills and techniques I talked about are ingrained these drills come into their own as means of enabling the student to develop their ability to apply the techniques they have.
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#395018 - 05/18/08 04:25 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Shonuff]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
'True intent of harm cannot be replicated in the dojo'

yes I agree certainly with that,

I think my point is that flow drills deliver less intent than say commited ippon kumite type drills, they simply have to otherwise they cease to flow.

(they also have a reliance on both parties being skilled in delivery and receipt of force, hence another step away from an untrained/low trained aggresor).

Granted I see benefit in both practices and im certianly not knocking the method as it's something I work fairly regulary anyhow,

albeit simpler flow drills for specific strategy, tactics and techniques (to alow greater semi fixed options) rather than an entire kata strung together, and certianly against common methods of assault and delivery.

It's one of the reasons Kamate (ready hands) is a major concept in the classical kata in my opinion, another core principle is that of Honto (True) Kata Bunkai which I have spoken about before.

I certainly see merit in how Dan Sensei presents his excellent work and training, I just don't agree fully with the presentation of full kata drills.
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www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#395019 - 05/18/08 05:33 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:


P.S. All the lecturing




It isnt lecturing it is informing.





on what is the "Okinawan method" of doing things comes off as very insulting,




To specific people it might. To most it is informative.

And legs are for walking with.

Jude




Hey Jude, if I want your opinion on my comments, i'll specifically solicit it by asking "please post useless inflammatory garbage with little or no content" Ok lil' troll buddy!

Other than that, some good discussion going on here, seems we definitely have some controversial opinions here lol!

Again, jump off Medulanet's leg please, he's shown himself more than capable of defending his own positions.

Anyway, IMO part of the reason to utilize drills with "steps" is to emphasize the ability to flow from one attack to another, the same principles apply as would in ippon-kumite style work, but the added flow is acknowledge and used to build the knowledge of always applying pressure to the opponent, even if the initial attack is less than successful.

Admittedly this kind of work can easily become artificial, and you have to take alot of care that this does not happen.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/18/08 06:01 PM)

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#395020 - 05/18/08 05:45 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: shoshinkan]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Dan Sensei,

how do you feel about the element of the effort to learn such complex routines over the actual benefits delivered (when considering the whole kata is drilled)?




Jim, in my experience the best drills in this vein are the ones that don't take much to learn, if you know the kata you know the drill, alot of what I have seen of Taira sensei's drills fall into this category, as do my own teacher's drills that i've picked up.

Uke is there to try to punch, grab you etc. and if you know the kata there is not really any extra memorization needed for the drill.

You dan do the whole drill or you can focus on a few steps.

Why do people find this practice so strange in Karate? It's no exactly unheard of in CMA, or FMA etc.

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#395021 - 05/18/08 07:38 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Hi Zach hows life?


Quote:


Anyway, IMO part of the reason to utilize drills with "steps" is to emphasize the ability to flow from one attack to another,


the same principles apply as would in ippon-kumite style work, but the added flow is acknowledge and used to build the knowledge of always applying pressure to the opponent, even if the initial attack is less than successful.

Admittedly this kind of work can easily become artificial, and you have to take alot of care that this does not happen.




What about we discuss your alternative drill to the kata and the applications that are in it? Seen as that was one of the links posted?


In detail? I would certainly describe the drill I practice after reading yours.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQeltFd_EKI

That was the link posted and the question was does anybody practice anything like it?

Jude

After you Zach?





Edited by jude33 (05/18/08 07:50 PM)

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#395022 - 05/18/08 07:57 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

I think this is where the ippon and flow drills are different. It is a must that you actually hit. For example, if you actually hit during the flow drill then it might be over after the first few techniques or it might continue on for a few exchanges until one person is immobilized or put down. That is where I have a problem with training timing for fighting without contact. If contact was made in these flow drills I suspect they would look more like full contact ippon kumite and yakusoku kumite.




Sorry, I can't see you contacting enough in class to really "stop" things. In my experience, even some quite strong blows haven't stopped the "flow" of combat, just wobbled it a bit. For your theory to work, you'd have to be hitting full power. In class? Hmmm.

In any event, if this is necessary for training it is, again, a reason for retaining ippon/yakusoku training. It doesn't mean that flow drills aren't necessary.
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http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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#395023 - 05/18/08 08:03 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

One important thing is that training never really is perfect. For example ippon kumite is the goal, but if an attacker strikes with a six strike combo and you are unable to stop him at one you don't stop, but disrupt the opponent when you are able and continue fighting until one is immobilized, put down, or maybe the fight carries out of the dojo into the street (slight exaggeration) so lets just call it threat neutralization. But you get my meaning. Even in failure to execute the "ippon" kumite drill you are learning about real timing for fighting. We don't not allow the "uke" to continue to fight back. In fact, that is where the drill's effectiveness comes in. It teaches how to stop a resisting and persistent attacker. In fact, the techniques don't really work right if the attacker isn't resisting and trying to attack you.




I take it you're thinking of a multiple (eg. 6 strike) attack, where you attempt to stop the attacker at his first attack. Can he/she vary his/her response and try to deflect your counter or does he/she persist in pursuing the original 6 strike plan? If it is the latter, you're talking about a good drill, but one that also has severe limitations. If you're talking about the latter it is "semi-free" sparring. There is room for semi-free and free sparring, but it is hardly a forum for "grooving" bunkai.
_________________________
http://www.dandjurdjevic.com/

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#395024 - 05/18/08 08:14 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:



What about we discuss your alternative drill to the kata and the applications that are in it? Seen as that was one of the links posted?






Sigh...ok. We practice the standard Goju Ryu Gekisai Dai Ichi drill you can find in Seikichi Toguchi's Okinawan Goju Ryu vol 1. After that the rest of our bunkai drills are from my own teacher and differ considerably, no i'm not gonna desrcibe them for you, you can go to one of my teacher's seminars or buy his books if you're so interested in some of the stuff i've been exposed to.

I do feel this gekisai drill is a little formulaic and I would replace it if I had a good replacement, though i'm not yet convinced Dan's is that much preferable, although it looks fine of and within itself. No offense Dan....as I said I do admire the stuff i've seen from you, i'm just not sure it's all that different from some of the more "traditional" renzoku drills i've seen.

Someone posted a video of this drill on the first page. We also practice plenty of more free-form application from Gekisai.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/18/08 08:18 PM)

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