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#394995 - 05/17/08 04:20 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: shoshinkan]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Hi Jim,

Which description do you disagree with, mine of the practices or Vince referring to them as Okinawan principles?

B.

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#394996 - 05/17/08 08:26 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Barad]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
sorry Barad, I wasn't clear.

My point was more in reference to Marcels (Medulanet) description of the effectivness of his fixed kumite practice.

It's not I don't beleive, I just can't quite visualize where he is coming from as a reality - helps to see and definatly to feel im sure.

I do see real benefit in commited fixed kumite drills, I just think we can often overstate their effectivness, hence my research and development into semi fixed and free practice.

It's actually not pointing a finger at Marcel, it's more based on the first 10 or so years of my own practice where the fixed drills were worked, very, very hard but did not take into account common methods of assault and set up.

I have been told Vince Sensei karate is superb, actually one of his students Don Sensei is just down the road from me, I should make the effort and visit, im sure it would be a good thing to do.

Of course i would be very interested in Vince Sensei Okinawna Karate background, I always remember him from his work on Shotokan Bunkai with Aiden Trimble Sensei, back in the early 90's if my memory is right.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#394997 - 05/17/08 09:11 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: shoshinkan]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Jim,

That would be Don Came I guess and you must be near Haywards Heath/Brighton? He is also very good (seem to remember he has smacked me on the nose a couple of times with pretty good control!), almost certainly the best of the UK Kissaki people. He teaches full time I think and is well worth a visit.

I think Vince has disowned the stuff he did with Aidan Trimble and I have a feeling there was some kind of falling out, I seem to remember Vince saying (and bear in mind I only see him a couple of times a year on courses so gossip is not top priority) that the stuff shown in the books with AT were not what he wanted to show but the publisher was not happy with the brutality of the techniques as Vince truly understood them. What he teaches now is quite different.

I am with you on the hard, repetitive drills that are flawed by being used only against "karate" attacks, not HAV-this is something I find refreshing about what we do now, not training as if a head height round kick or lunge punge to the stomach is the most likely attack. . .

If it is of interest, if you go to Don's club, you may see a practice called Shin Gohon Kumite (new 5 step sparring) which involves more common punches from close up either parried to the side with mawashi uke or deflected on the inside of the attack moving forward strongly, then an unbalancing technique (say knee attack to thigh GB31 if you had moved outside) then a strike and/or lock. It is meant to be a more realistic version of the drills we all did for years just stepping straight back.

B.

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#394998 - 05/17/08 11:07 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Barad]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I will contact Don Sensei and try and get along to a couple of classes or workshops locally.

were derailing now....................LOL I can do that as a member only!
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#394999 - 05/17/08 05:07 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

sorry Barad, I wasn't clear.

My point was more in reference to Marcels (Medulanet) description of the effectivness of his fixed kumite practice.

It's not I don't beleive, I just can't quite visualize where he is coming from as a reality - helps to see and definatly to feel im sure.

I do see real benefit in commited fixed kumite drills, I just think we can often overstate their effectivness, hence my research and development into semi fixed and free practice.

It's actually not pointing a finger at Marcel, it's more based on the first 10 or so years of my own practice where the fixed drills were worked, very, very hard but did not take into account common methods of assault and set up.




Actually, I'm talking about where fixed become free and resistive. In fact, the true benefit of the fixed drills are not the attack, but the defense. Okinawan karate is about making a response to an attack work against ANY attack. Working a fixed kumite set without ever changing the structure of the attack is very limited. That is why there are variations on Yakusoku kumite. IMO if you are working a technique that will only work against one type of attack then you will not be very successful in combat. Okinawan karate defensive or recieving techniques are designed to deal with just about any empty handed (and many weapons) attacks. However, it is not just the technique itself, it is the intent and the way in which it is performed and practiced.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#395000 - 05/17/08 05:31 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


Actually, I'm talking about where fixed become free and resistive. In fact, the true benefit of the fixed drills are not the attack, but the defense. Okinawan karate is about making a response to an attack work against ANY attack. Working a fixed kumite set without ever changing the structure of the attack is very limited. That is why there are variations on Yakusoku kumite. IMO if you are working a technique that will only work against one type of attack then you will not be very successful in combat. Okinawan karate defensive or recieving techniques are designed to deal with just about any empty handed (and many weapons) attacks. However, it is not just the technique itself, it is the intent and the way in which it is performed and practiced.




I'll agree with that, I was always taught that when practicing this kind of drill you are aiming to instill "non-diagnostic" responses to a wide variety of attacks.

However, I do think that ippon kumite-structured drills like this probably need to be augmented by some kind of "flow practice" with limited transitions and such as well, otherwise they will be automatically become static drills, no matter how hard you're attacking.

One step is just one step after all, and I think that like the renzoku drills they have their place, but they aren't all-encompassing.

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#395001 - 05/17/08 05:55 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:


Actually, I'm talking about where fixed become free and resistive. In fact, the true benefit of the fixed drills are not the attack, but the defense. Okinawan karate is about making a response to an attack work against ANY attack. Working a fixed kumite set without ever changing the structure of the attack is very limited. That is why there are variations on Yakusoku kumite. IMO if you are working a technique that will only work against one type of attack then you will not be very successful in combat. Okinawan karate defensive or recieving techniques are designed to deal with just about any empty handed (and many weapons) attacks. However, it is not just the technique itself, it is the intent and the way in which it is performed and practiced.




I'll agree with that, I was always taught that when practicing this kind of drill you are aiming to instill "non-diagnostic" responses to a wide variety of attacks.

However, I do think that ippon kumite-structured drills like this probably need to be augmented by some kind of "flow practice" with limited transitions and such as well, otherwise they will be automatically become static drills, no matter how hard you're attacking.

One step is just one step after all, and I think that like the renzoku drills they have their place, but they aren't all-encompassing.




Not quite Zach. If your definition of Ippon Kumite is that the attacker only throws one attack and/or that the defender only throws one counter attack then what you say is true. However, this is the Japanese Budo way of thinking. For Okinawan karate Ippon Kumite means stopping or limiting your opponent's attack to one attack. In fact, the Ippon kumite I work I allow my opponent to attack me with a variety of attacks and with any number of attacks. Then I utilize my techniques to deflect or destroy his first attack and get my attack off before he can connect with his other attacks or I intercept him before he can complete his initial attack. This is more the Okinawan working of Ippon Kumite. I also usually find that my attackers rarely even want to attack me with more than one attack because they will usually get nailed with my counter when they attack because to attack means to open yourself up to attack.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#395002 - 05/17/08 06:18 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


Not quite Zach. If your definition of Ippon Kumite is that the attacker only throws one attack and/or that the defender only throws one counter attack then what you say is true. However, this is the Japanese Budo way of thinking. For Okinawan karate Ippon Kumite means stopping or limiting your opponent's attack to one attack. In fact, the Ippon kumite I work I allow my opponent to attack me with a variety of attacks and with any number of attacks. Then I utilize my techniques to deflect or destroy his first attack and get my attack off before he can connect with his other attacks or I intercept him before he can complete his initial attack. This is more the Okinawan working of Ippon Kumite. I also usually find that my attackers rarely even want to attack me with more than one attack because they will usually get nailed with my counter when they attack because to attack means to open yourself up to attack.




Not quite Medulanet, I don't practice Japanese Karate either, and I've had a couple of really good Goju teachers so I know exactly what you are talking about, I simply feel it's only one part of a training regimen, and is just as limited as renzoku drills in it's own way.

Again, what you are describing is exactly the way I was taught to do ippon kumite, and I believe it still builds just as many bad habits as renzoku drills do if focused on in isolation.

You can argue with it all you want, but I have been exposed to and trained with exactly the kind of methods you are talking about, and I simply have come to a slightly different conclusion than you.

In fact i'll go as far as to say that way of practicing ippon-kumite type methods is maybe a little more widespread than you're implying. It's not like every dojo one comes across does the "you stand there while I hit you" variant of one steps, but I suppose it makes us all feel better to pretend we have unique and proprietary training methods.


P.S. All the lecturing on what is the "Okinawan method" of doing things comes off as very insulting, virtually no one on this thread so far has advocated the stereotypical ippon-kumite method, and if you read the responses I don't think anyone here doesn't get what you are talking about, and i'd wager most on the thread have participated in just this sort of training.

Perhaps it's possible that some simply have come to a different conclusion than you using the same methods?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/17/08 06:27 PM)

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#395003 - 05/17/08 07:28 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I am not saying that not many practice this method. In fact, I really don't know who does and who does not utilize this method outside of those with whom I have trained. However, from what you wrote it appeared you were describing the Japanese Budo method.

However, I am interested in hearing what limitations you see in this method and where a "flow" drill can help add the skills that these methods do not contain. For me, gaining the skill to stop an attacker cold and limiting them to no more than one attack is a good way to fight. And if that method is learned well, I really don't see what fighting environment it would not be effective.

For example you said,

Quote:

However, I do think that ippon kumite-structured drills like this probably need to be augmented by some kind of "flow practice" with limited transitions and such as well, otherwise they will be automatically become static drills, no matter how hard you're attacking.

One step is just one step after all, and I think that like the renzoku drills they have their place, but they aren't all-encompassing.




I am not sure who this statement mirrors what I am describing. How would the drills I am discussing become static. In addition you talk about one step being only one step. How does this equal the exchanges I mentioned? Please explain.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#395004 - 05/17/08 11:42 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


P.S. All the lecturing




It isnt lecturing it is informing.





on what is the "Okinawan method" of doing things comes off as very insulting,




To specific people it might. To most it is informative.

And legs are for walking with.

Jude

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