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#395005 - 05/18/08 01:34 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Marcel, you say:

Quote:

I am interested in hearing what limitations you see in this method and where a "flow" drill can help add the skills that these methods do not contain. For me, gaining the skill to stop an attacker cold and limiting them to no more than one attack is a good way to fight. And if that method is learned well, I really don't see what fighting environment it would not be effective.




Inherent in your comments is the assumption that flow drills do not contain moves that are designed to “stop an attacker cold”. This is fundamentally incorrect. In fact, flow drills can be seen as a series of “stop an attacker cold” attempts by both sides – each of which is thwarted, forcing each side into a defence of the other’s “stop an attack cold” counters.

In making your comment you no doubt considered the gekisai embu I have posted on the net. However bear in mind that just as the gekisai are basic kata, their embu are designed as basic embu. If you consider our naifunchin, seiyunchin, shisochin and sanseiru embu by comparison, you’ll note that they contain a higher degree of multiple attacks/counters and defences. The only difference between these flow drills and “responsive” yakusoku drills is that the drill continues – it does not actually “stop cold”. But this feeds into your question:

Quote:

What are the limitations of the “responsive” kumite method? How can a flow drill help?




It seems that you feel it is a weakness that one side is at no point “stopped cold”. You say:

Quote:

“Done right believe me, the "attacker" will break on the rocks or waza of the "defender" in yakusoku kumite… If you notice they "end" with the defender attacking.




However I think the continuing “flow” of the embu is actually both the strength of the embu and the weakness of standard yakusoku practice.

The only reason that the embu doesn’t stop is because the defender thwarts the attack. “Ah yes,” you might reply, “but my counter should be so good that it DOES stop the other side.” Wrong.

Every attack has its weakness. Drills where one side “stops” the other require the side being “stopped” to ignore the weakness in the attack (ie. to refrain from countering/responding to that weakness).

A drill only stops because one side lets him/herself be put into a position from which there is no escape. With free or semi-free sparring this is understandable; one side will make a mistake sooner or later. But in pre-arranged sparring (of which embu and yakusoku sparring is a variety) we should not groove a less than optimum response. If anything is grooving “bad habits” as you previously suggested, this is it. Both sides should do their best to “survive”. One side should not let itself be “broken on the rocks” (even if this is what both sides techniques are designed to do).

Our embu have been very carefully designed to move along the lines of least resistance. Each side responds in (what is hopefully) an optimum way to an attack/series of attacks. Sometimes there is only one way of evading a particular, decisive counter. In that case, this is the response taken by the defender.

Quote:

How would the drills I am discussing become static. In addition you talk about one step being only one step. How does this equal the exchanges I mentioned? Please explain.




This is answered above. Yakusoku drills stop. At that point they are static. However I can elaborate my point with an example. Imagine that your renzoku/yakusoku kumite drill consists to 3 moves:

(1) “A” initiates an attack or series of attacks;
(2) “B” defends against those attacks and performs a series of counters;
(3) “A” defends against those counters and performs a series of counter-counters that finish the sequence.

The drill is static at point (3) because “B” does not respond to the “counter-counters”. In fact, “B” stops his/her participation at point (2)!

However what if your yakusoku drill were cleverly designed so that the counter in point (3) were capable of being defended against by the techniques comprising point (2)?

(1) attacks (3)
(2) attacks (1)
(3) attacks (2)
(1) attacks (3)
and so on...

Both sides could then go “hell for leather”. Same techniques, same emphasis, same sequence, but one side doesn’t “stop” or “give in”. One side isn’t being trained to “lose”.

“But is this really possible?”, you ask. “Surely our embu must involve some element of compromise?” Well, we have certainly done our best to make sure they don't. We're not talking about "dancing": my brother and I have agonised over some movements for years. We might be wrong, but not for want of trying.

By the way, the pattern above (3 point drill) is very common in, say, arnis/escrima/kali (eg. box pattern single stick, de cadena trapping drills, etc.). I have found these to be freshingly pragmatic, if not essential in weapons. Why not karate?

Our embu comprise 5 to 10 point drills by comparison – mostly to try to get all of the “essential” bunkai into one package.

You admonished me once to "give visualisation of kata a go" (when in fact I do visualise, but I was making the point that this alone is insufficient for grooving bunkai). I now suggest to you: why don't you try embu practice? You might find it useful...


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/18/08 01:51 AM)
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#395006 - 05/18/08 04:17 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Inherent in your comments is the assumption that flow drills do not contain moves that are designed to “stop an attacker cold”. This is fundamentally incorrect. In fact, flow drills can be seen as a series of “stop an attacker cold” attempts by both sides – each of which is thwarted, forcing each side into a defence of the other’s “stop an attack cold” counters.




Dan, this is precisely my point. In a flow drill you "attempt" to stop an attacker cold, but never do. The flow drills teach you to attempt to do so and then have your attempts thwarted by your opponent. So then how do you know if your techniques can actually do what you are training them to do? If your answer is some other drill where you use your techniques in a more realistic manner, then I ask you why practice the flow drill to develop fighting skill at all?

Quote:

In making your comment you no doubt considered the gekisai embu I have posted on the net. However bear in mind that just as the gekisai are basic kata, their embu are designed as basic embu. If you consider our naifunchin, seiyunchin, shisochin and sanseiru embu by comparison, you’ll note that they contain a higher degree of multiple attacks/counters and defences. The only difference between these flow drills and “responsive” yakusoku drills is that the drill continues – it does not actually “stop cold”. But this feeds into your question:

Quote:

What are the limitations of the “responsive” kumite method? How can a flow drill help?




It seems that you feel it is a weakness that one side is at no point “stopped cold”. You say:

Quote:

“Done right believe me, the "attacker" will break on the rocks or waza of the "defender" in yakusoku kumite… If you notice they "end" with the defender attacking.




However I think the continuing “flow” of the embu is actually both the strength of the embu and the weakness of standard yakusoku practice.

The only reason that the embu doesn’t stop is because the defender thwarts the attack. “Ah yes,” you might reply, “but my counter should be so good that it DOES stop the other side.” Wrong.

Every attack has its weakness. Drills where one side “stops” the other require the side being “stopped” to ignore the weakness in the attack (ie. to refrain from countering/responding to that weakness).




Yes every "attack" has its weakness, however, does every counter attack have its weakness? A counter is designed to take advantage of the weakness in an attack. For an attacker to take advantage of a counter attack, they must first find a way to defend against the weakness in their attack (that is if they know where they are weak)? This is where karate excels. Karate was designed to take advantage of the weakness of attacks, hence the saying "there is no first attack in karate." In addition, by stopped cold I don't mean that the drill stops simply because the sequence has ended. The drill stops when one person is on the ground and unable to launch an effective attack/counter attack. It is not an exercise in theory, it is an exercise in the reality of what is necessary to stop an attacker, put him down, and make sure he is unable to continue his attack. It teaches why your were successful, or unsuccessfull. In ippon kumite there is no predetermined winner. Only an attacker and a "defender". The only thing that seperates the two is the attacker attacks first. The same applies to yakusoku kumite beyond learning the sequence. When trained full contact for combat it is the same as the ippon kumite.

Quote:

A drill only stops because one side lets him/herself be put into a position from which there is no escape. With free or semi-free sparring this is understandable; one side will make a mistake sooner or later. But in pre-arranged sparring (of which embu and yakusoku sparring is a variety) we should not groove a less than optimum response. If anything is grooving “bad habits” as you previously suggested, this is it. Both sides should do their best to “survive”. One side should not let itself be “broken on the rocks” (even if this is what both sides techniques are designed to do).




To do this would mean no one would attack first, then there would be no training, and no one would improve. As you said there is an inherent weakness in an attack. However, to simulate someone attacking we have to be good training partners and someone must be the attacker.

Quote:

Our embu have been very carefully designed to move along the lines of least resistance. Each side responds in (what is hopefully) an optimum way to an attack/series of attacks. Sometimes there is only one way of evading a particular, decisive counter. In that case, this is the response taken by the defender.

Quote:

How would the drills I am discussing become static. In addition you talk about one step being only one step. How does this equal the exchanges I mentioned? Please explain.




This is answered above. Yakusoku drills stop. At that point they are static. However I can elaborate my point with an example. Imagine that your renzoku/yakusoku kumite drill consists to 3 moves:

(1) “A” initiates an attack or series of attacks;
(2) “B” defends against those attacks and performs a series of counters;
(3) “A” defends against those counters and performs a series of counter-counters that finish the sequence.

The drill is static at point (3) because “B” does not respond to the “counter-counters”. In fact, “B” stops his/her participation at point (2)!

However what if your yakusoku drill were cleverly designed so that the counter in point (3) were capable of being defended against by the techniques comprising point (2)?

(1) attacks (3)
(2) attacks (1)
(3) attacks (2)
(1) attacks (3)
and so on...

Both sides could then go “hell for leather”. Same techniques, same emphasis, same sequence, but one side doesn’t “stop” or “give in”. One side isn’t being trained to “lose”.

“But is this really possible?”, you ask. “Surely our embu must involve some element of compromise?” Well, we have certainly done our best to make sure they don't. We're not talking about "dancing": my brother and I have agonised over some movements for years. We might be wrong, but not for want of trying.




I see your points, however, in Yakusoku Kumite or ippon kumite when trained full contact (not full enough to permanently injure, but enough to cause pain and somewhat damage) They only stop when one man is put on the ground and not in a position to continue his attack. This is not static but very real. Remeber, I stated that I do flow drills, however, the ones I do are for conditioning the limbs and developing footwork and movement. For me they help me develop attributes, but not the timing and skill to fight. As far as the attacker being conditioned to lose that is not really the case. In fact, all attacks have inherent weakness to them. That is precisely why karate trained properly works so well and the statement "there is no first attack in karate" rings so true. Karate was designed to take advantage of such openings. As far as the attacker being conditioned to lose, this is not true. In fact, when I train my students in ippon kumite or full contact yakusoku kumite, I as the attacker often "win." This is due to the fact that they are still learning and often have difficulty dealing with my attacks. Theoretically and ippon kumite could continue on indefinitely with neither participant gaining the edge and putting his opponent down, but this is far from reality. However, in a flow drill you are trained to practice techniques which allow your opponent to thwart your attack and initiate their own. Isn't this conditioning people to lose just as an ippon kumite or yakusoku kumite with a predetermined winner is?

Quote:

By the way, the pattern above (3 point drill) is very common in, say, arnis/escrima/kali (eg. box pattern single stick, de cadena trapping drills, etc.). I have found these to be freshingly pragmatic, if not essential in weapons. Why not karate?

Our embu comprise 5 to 10 point drills by comparison – mostly to try to get all of the “essential” bunkai into one package.

You admonished me once to "give visualisation of kata a go" (when in fact I do visualise, but I was making the point that this alone is insufficient for grooving bunkai). I now suggest to you: why don't you try embu practice? You might find it useful...




I do practice flow drills, but not to develop fighting skill. I find it trains me to give too much to my opponent, where is when it counts I don't want to give him anything.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#395007 - 05/18/08 05:50 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Hi Marcel

Your central point is validly made, and that is that ippon and yakusoku kumite are necessary for learning to execute final moves. I’ve never disagreed with this. Embu are deficient in not permitting this: this is their limitation. Again, I’ve never disagreed. That is why we do ippon and (to a lesser extent) yakusoku. However you asked what the limitations of these were and I obliged.

You said:

Quote:


Dan, this is precisely my point. In a flow drill you "attempt" to stop an attacker cold, but never do. The flow drills teach you to attempt to do so and then have your attempts thwarted by your opponent. So then how do you know if your techniques can actually do what you are training them to do? If your answer is some other drill where you use your techniques in a more realistic manner, then I ask you why practice the flow drill to develop fighting skill at all?




Unless you actually hit your partner, you’re not actually stopping him or her “cold’ either. All you get with at “stop” is the acquiescence of one side and the illusion of “stopping”. This is highly artificial. I’m not saying it doesn’t have its uses – just that it has its inherent weaknesses. You need to practice finishing moves, but this is not more or less realistic than embu. It’s just a different form of training.

Quote:

Yes every "attack" has its weakness, however, does every counter attack have its weakness?




In a nutshell, yes – unless you’ve totally misjudged your position, overcommitted etc. In my experience there is a defence to every counter if your strategy is good. If you “go down a bad road” you’re stuffed. Embu teach you not to go down that bad road. Yakusoku kumite can teach you to be a sitting duck. This is an inherent weakness (even if the advantages outweigh this).

Quote:

A counter is designed to take advantage of the weakness in an attack. For an attacker to take advantage of a counter attack, they must first find a way to defend against the weakness in their attack (that is if they know where they are weak)? This is where karate excels. Karate was designed to take advantage of the weakness of attacks, hence the saying "there is no first attack in karate."




I agree. None of this argues against the use of embu.

Quote:

In addition, by stopped cold I don't mean that the drill stops simply because the sequence has ended. The drill stops when one person is on the ground and unable to launch an effective attack/counter attack. It is not an exercise in theory, it is an exercise in the reality of what is necessary to stop an attacker, put him down, and make sure he is unable to continue his attack. It teaches why your were successful, or unsuccessful.




As discussed, you’ve just given a reason why ippon and yakusoku kumite is useful. Indeed, I agree. This was never the issue. The issue is, do these forms of pre-arranged kumite have an inherent weakness? Can these be cured with embu? The answer to both is, in my opinion, yes.

Quote:

In ippon kumite there is no predetermined winner. Only an attacker and a "defender". The only thing that seperates the two is the attacker attacks first. The same applies to yakusoku kumite beyond learning the sequence. When trained full contact for combat it is the same as the ippon kumite.




I’m afraid this sounds like a semantic argument. It is predetermined if you know who is the attacker and who is the defender. Other than that, I don’t see anything new arising from this argument.

Quote:

To do this [embu] would mean no one would attack first, then there would be no training, and no one would improve. As you said there is an inherent weakness in an attack. However, to simulate someone attacking we have to be good training partners and someone must be the attacker.




I’m afraid I disagree. There is no reason why embu shouldn’t involve hard attacks. In fact if you miss your defence you’ll soon feel the results! It is yakusoku kumite, but in a continuum. Furthermore, nothing stops you from agreeing with your partner to terminate the embu at the 3rd point and perform a finishing move. We often do this. We often take any 3 or so moves from the embu and construct a yakusoku drill.

Quote:

I see your points, however, in Yakusoku Kumite or ippon kumite when trained full contact (not full enough to permanently injure, but enough to cause pain and somewhat damage) They only stop when one man is put on the ground and not in a position to continue his attack. This is not static but very real.




I disagree. It is not “real” and it is static at a particular point. Why? The person being taken down doesn’t resist with a decent counter. Just because you think there is no counter doesn’t mean there isn’t one. Look closely at even those situations where you think you have your partner in an effective “checkmate” and tell me he/she doesn’t have options – most of which would thwart an elaborate take-down plan. If you’re still not sure, ask your partner to resist your final moves… (what someone else here likes to call “pressure testing”). Furthermore if your yakusoku drill leads one partner to do such a daft manoeuvre that he or she literally has no chance of defence against your counter you should ask whether you haven’t constructed a “paper tiger’ – just to knock it down.

Quote:

Remember, I stated that I do flow drills, however, the ones I do are for conditioning the limbs and developing footwork and movement. For me they help me develop attributes, but not the timing and skill to fight.




Yet I have done “embu” type training for fighting skills for many years – particularly in weapons training. I cannot overstate their effectiveness. You should try this method of training before you make your conclusions final. String together one of your yakusoku drills so that they “circular” as I suggested in my last post…

Quote:

However, in a flow drill you are trained to practice techniques which allow your opponent to thwart your attack and initiate their own. Isn't this conditioning people to lose just as an ippon kumite or yakusoku kumite with a predetermined winner is?




I couldn’t disagree more. Both partners are doing their best to win. You don’t “let” your partner thwart you! If he doesn’t thwart you, that’s his/her tough luck! The techniques don’t “allow” you to be thwarted either. Again, you assume that some counters have no defence. This is not true, unless you’re tactics are absolutely useless. What you are training is against “resistance”. You’re not letting your partner have an easy go. I learned this first in xingyiquan, where one you perform a counter with one of the 5 elements and think “he’s stuffed”. Only the next thing you know he’s pulled a rabbit out of the hat and you’re facing an “invincible” counter yourself.

In the end, the only “weakness” I see in embu is the obvious: it doesn’t have finishing moves. However these occupy so little of a series of technical moves. Most of the “magic” is in the set up. Having said that, we aren’t talking about scrapping ippon kumite or yakusoku kumite. We’re talking about augmenting them with embu…
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#395008 - 05/18/08 06:50 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Med,

above you commented that flow drills such as the embu don't teach timing or how to fight. I don't know how Dan teaches these drills, but as I understand them it is the complete opposite case.

My greatest experience of flow drills is from Taekwondo. a simple two kick combination drill such has roundhouse to back kick can teach a student almost everything they need to know about fighting.

One of the main points with any kind of flow drill is that each attack or counter thrown is an attempt at hitting and taking out the opponent. To that end the first thing a student has to learn is balance so that while he is evading his partner he can still counter effectively. Coupled with that will be distancing, beginners always dodge miles too far and have to learn to harmonise with their partner. Then follows speed, the student gets into the drill and tries to catch his partner out by moving faster, simultaneously testing his balance and distancing skills as he would in a real encounter. Then when the student realises that both he and his partner are moving top speed and no longer making mistakes (each of which got them hit by the other) leaving them at a stalemate, he will have to start working on his timing and subtle re-shaping of the technique in order to make it land. Adding pauses, half steps, shifting angle slightly. By forcing the students to limit themselves to the framework of the drill they are forced to explore every inch of the techniques which comprise it and how to make them land.

This is exactly how it went in TKD class. Stretch too much with the back kick and he lands both kicks on me. Be too conservative and I miss altogether.

Other drills will teach them how to finish the opponent once they have landed, either through combination striking or a control and take down, but the "fight", the exchange and struggle for dominance is best trained in an at least semi fluid environment where the student can play with the scenario. Is this not how it is done in grappling arts such as wrestling?

Where I feel the strength of 1-step lies is for developing the skill of controlling the opponent from their opening attack such that there is no option for them to retaliate. However training exclusively like this is nice in theory, but I've yet to encounter anyone who can employ it in every instance against every kind of attack.

When I trained 1-step in my old Karate school, by 6th kyu we had dispensed with formal stance and oizuki attack. By 5th kyu it was standard practice for the attacker to resist and continue fighting in whatever way he could. This only happened if the defender made a mistake because of the nature of the techniques being drilled.

Med, your description of the yakusoku kumite seems to waver between a drill and free sparring with a preset attacker? It's not a method I've trained but if it is like what Nagamine shows in his book I can't see how it is not static and artificial.
What precisely are the limits of the drill? Do both parties have pre-set techniques which they are meant to use?


Edited by Shonuff (05/18/08 06:54 AM)
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#395009 - 05/18/08 06:55 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I forgot to say - what you're really learning in embu is that practically every counter can be countered. You learn how to "rescue" a situation. If you look at kata bunkai closely you'll see that is what some moves were intended for. It is my contention that some kata techniques can only be applied in such a dynamic environment - eg. when you're facing a strong counter while mid-kick, etc.

In the end the question is, what is the benefit of embu that can't be achieved with yakusoku? Simply put, it is the above. This is what I mean by a "static" environment. The first and last moves are not in a dynamic environment (i.e you are not applying a technique mid-fight except in the middle move. The first move starts things from nothing. The last move encounters no resistance.


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/18/08 07:08 AM)
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#395010 - 05/18/08 11:12 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Dan Sensei,

how do you feel about the element of the effort to learn such complex routines over the actual benefits delivered (when considering the whole kata is drilled)?

Also whilst I appriciate and accept the benefits of flow drills (alongside other kumite practices),

however much we try they will not become resistive to a point they actually represent real life violence - they miss 2 major elements which is of course intent and variation, and the need to remain in flow is of course not how actual violence is tempo'ed.

I understand they perhaps are not the final awnser, but just a very good tool for skill development (and interestingly very rarely demonstrated by the Okinawan's until recently?), but wanted to inject these questions into the conversation.

Persoanlly I do work simplified flow drills to develop skills and find them of great use. But not to the detriment of other work.
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#395011 - 05/18/08 11:39 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: shoshinkan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Good question!

Actually I've been surprised at how easy they are to learn for the students. I was more concerned than my brother, but after being in hospital for 3 months I came back and everyone was right into it!

If you know the kata you can pick up the drill in a lesson. It's always a concern - adding sequences - but we usually grade on the embu well after grading on the kata for the first time. 10th to 8th kyu don't grade on embu at all.

We also do less walking up and down the floor type training nowadays.

Don't know if this is what many folks would agree with, but we obviously see the benefits enough to keep on with this program.

Also our philosophy is to keep to a kata-based syllabus; kata, embu and tuide all connected and no 'stray' drills etc. So rather than have many unrelated ippon/yakusoku/Hapv type drills, we've consolidated our kumite drills into 2: our embu and tuide lockflows.

Great reading your stuff btw Jim! I'll email you.
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#395012 - 05/18/08 01:09 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Unless you actually hit your partner, you’re not actually stopping him or her “cold’ either. All you get with at “stop” is the acquiescence of one side and the illusion of “stopping”. This is highly artificial. I’m not saying it doesn’t have its uses – just that it has its inherent weaknesses. You need to practice finishing moves, but this is not more or less realistic than embu. It’s just a different form of training.




I think this is where the ippon and flow drills are different. It is a must that you actually hit. For example, if you actually hit during the flow drill then it might be over after the first few techniques or it might continue on for a few exchanges until one person is immobilized or put down. That is where I have a problem with training timing for fighting without contact. If contact was made in these flow drills I suspect they would look more like full contact ippon kumite and yakusoku kumite.
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#395013 - 05/18/08 01:33 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Sho, its important to understand that the photos the yakusoku kumite sets in Nagamine's book is a very basic guide the the sequence of the drill. But is not how the drill is used to train for combat. When training Yakusoku kumites at the higher level you are training in the spirit of the techniques, but with greater variability. Its about training principles, not techniques.

One important thing is that training never really is perfect. For example ippon kumite is the goal, but if an attacker strikes with a six strike combo and you are unable to stop him at one you don't stop, but disrupt the opponent when you are able and continue fighting until one is immobilized, put down, or maybe the fight carries out of the dojo into the street (slight exaggeration) so lets just call it threat neutralization. But you get my meaning. Even in failure to execute the "ippon" kumite drill you are learning about real timing for fighting. We don't not allow the "uke" to continue to fight back. In fact, that is where the drill's effectiveness comes in. It teaches how to stop a resisting and persistent attacker. In fact, the techniques don't really work right if the attacker isn't resisting and trying to attack you.
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#395014 - 05/18/08 01:39 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

This is what I mean by a "static" environment. The first and last moves are not in a dynamic environment (i.e you are not applying a technique mid-fight except in the middle move. The first move starts things from nothing. The last move encounters no resistance.




You are right. Some Yakusoku kumites are this way. However, when training them properly for combat, this is not the case. Its kind of like in kata. The "end" is not necessarily the end of the conflict. Sometimes it is just the follow through of the end. If you look to the transitional movements, you will see the fight enders. The rest is just icing on the cake. I think the no resistance and no hard contact thing is the reason why for many the "finishing" moves of yakusoku kumite meet with no resistance. Unless you do damage to your opponent you cannot finish them if they are resisting. A little contact in the right places will really take the fight out of most.
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