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#394965 - 05/13/08 03:30 AM Kata Embu
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
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Loc: London, UK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jUiAafxswQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQeltFd_EKI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_6Mf2RwGYY

Two person kata flow drills.

I like these, I think they are a nice advancement on 1,3 or 5-step kumite. A nice base on which to build deeper application training.

What say the rest of you?

Does anyone else practice this or anything like this?
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#394966 - 05/13/08 06:50 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Shonuff]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Sure. We do. It's considered basic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLG2YpNerYs

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#394967 - 05/13/08 10:58 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Shonuff]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Yeah, i've learned flow drills for a few different kata.

I'd say as a rule they are pretty common in Goju, although at least in my experience i'd have to disagree with Harlan about them only being basic.

We are currently practicing and learning drills like this for Seisan, Saifa, and Sepai.

We have always practiced the standard Gekisai one that Harlan posted.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/13/08 11:00 AM)

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#394968 - 05/13/08 10:59 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
harlan Offline
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I didn't say they were 'only' basic. Just basic. And like any basic...once you get it down...you can go from there.

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#394969 - 05/13/08 11:00 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: harlan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
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Loc: Australia
Hi Shonuff

We seem to have common likes in the martial arts.

I'm writing an article on the anatomy of our embu as we speak. Essentially they are built on a foundation of the taisabaki that comes from essential bunkai.

The embu can be performed solo or by 2 people: in that sense there is only 1 sequence to learn and it contains all the essential taisabaki pertinent to the kata. It differs from the "traditional" 2 person gekisai bunkai harlan posted (I've known that one for 25 years) because it doesn't rigidly adhere to the kata - rather it attempts to value add.

I personally don't believe the "traditional" gekisai 2 person kata is of much use precisely because it is so similar to the kata itself - practising a form with minor variations makes you wonder why you wouldn't just do the kata. IMHO it is also not very realistic. It was our frustration with this form and our experience of 2 person drills in weaponry (tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu and various Chinese systems etc.) that led us to reconsider the concept from the ground up.

What we have tried to do with our embu is to create a forum for real bunkai practice in a dynamic environment. You're actually applying the taisabaki etc., not just repeating a (rather pointless) variation.

I also like a circular form (ie. your opponent starts the same sequence mid-way through).

Lest you think we thought these up overnight, we developed them over a 12 year period. You'll notice the gekisai ichi is fairly simple in its taisabaki, where the seiyunchin is more complex and starts looking like a real fight.

The single person sequence, remarkably, retains the same "feel" as the original kata, even if it departs sequentially.
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#394970 - 05/13/08 05:26 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
I'm gonna play devil's advocate here and bring up the argument that is always brought up with yakusoku kumite/renzoku drills or whatever.

Alot of people argue that this training creates a "reactive" mindset where you wait for the opponent rather than learning to control the situation, I don't agree fully but I do think there is some merit to this idea.

Personally the way I was taught these drills was fairly dynamic, and once the pattern is there there is room for variation and different intensity levels, which in part I think answers the above claim pretty well.

In the time i've been teaching them, I've found I prefer to teach them in small "pieces" of 3 to 4 techniques.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/13/08 05:27 PM)

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#394971 - 05/13/08 06:37 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
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For me, as far as "flow" drills go I personally only use them for body conditioning (arms and legs) and grappling sensetivity drills. Not rule bound push hands but more of position grappling. For learning to fight and training striking I personally believe they engrain bad habits.
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#394972 - 05/13/08 07:11 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
I see little value in long complicated to learn flow drills of karate technique from kata, prefering to work in short sequences against common methods of assault, then to principle led semi fixed and free work.

I really like simple flow drill work to condition the body and mind, a whole kata is not simple.

Im absolutly not convinced the classical kata were ever trained as a continuos motion set, however I do see some value in that (if thats your thing) method just not enough to do it myself.

It certainly looks good when done well anyhow, just not for me. (I accept I work to a slightly lower 'skill' level than many karateka work to, im cool with that as we focus on other areas instead).

Still impressive work shown in the clips.
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#394973 - 05/13/08 07:14 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

For me, as far as "flow" drills go I personally only use them for body conditioning (arms and legs) and grappling sensetivity drills. Not rule bound push hands but more of position grappling. For learning to fight and training striking I personally believe they engrain bad habits.




I've never quite understood this line of reasoning, if the above is true, how is it any less true for solo kata practice? I assume you do at least a little of that?

Do you assume the same would be true of say Judo or Jujitsu kata that goes for a few moves? I don't.

I think it could ingrain bad habits, or it could be used to hone technique, obviously it's never a substitute for more free from practice, one of the best ways to train this stuff (imo) is to take a small bit, and practice "by the book" as you gradually move into new territory, and turn it into less fixed drills/sparring.

I personally don't know anyone who trains this kind of thing as a rigid, unchanging form, but hey maybe i've just not seen it.

In short, I think this stuff has it's place, but it also has it's limits.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/13/08 07:18 PM)

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#394974 - 05/13/08 07:33 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Our embu are composed entirely of standard bunkai. The idea is to ingrain the bunkai. If your bunkai are bad, you ingrain bad habits.

Otherwise you ingrain your bunkai which I would have thought is what you're trying to do with ippon kumite bunkai. The problem with ippon kumite is that it has severe limitations - it is a static, not dynamic environment. Many bunkai were intended to operate in a dynamic environment which is hard to replicate with a standard step + punch etc. methodology. Sometimes you need to be mid-kick etc. when facing your attack.

Does embu have limitations? Yes, it is an adjunct, not the be-all. Having said that, weapons systems like Katori Shinto ryu train very effectively with just 2 person drills...

In terms of bad habits, I can see why the "traditional" gekisai 2 person drill might ingrain them: the person doing the kata is not employing much (if any) taisabaki in movement, but is performing the kata literally. The kata was, imho never meant to be a 2 person drill in itself, and trying to make it so is really stretching things.

In my personal experience, embu has vastly improved my sparring and that of my students and colleagues. It has provided some "framework" or point of reference, some instant responses. For a change we're actually using kata techniques in sparring, not just jumping around, slapping attacks away aimlessly.

Having a point of reference hasn't limited my sparring - it has given me a starting point. Most importantly, I'm applying taisabaki in sparring. This is now ingrained. It is very hard to ingrain taisabaki - ippon kumite as a static environment just doesn't cut the mustard. And doing free sparring only tends to reinforce what you're doing already - you don't grow/change/adopt new techniques.

Shorter drills are fine. We like one, relatively short, embu in our syllabus that "packages" the essential taisabaki for each kata. It's all horses for courses...
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#394975 - 05/13/08 07:56 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

In terms of bad habits, I can see why the "traditional" gekisai 2 person drill might ingrain them: the person doing the kata is not employing much (if any) taisabaki in movement, but is performing the kata literally. The kata was, imho never meant to be a 2 person drill in itself, and trying to make it so is really stretching things.




Well, i'm not gonna defend the drill much, it's the only Toguchi drill we do anymore bascially for the reasons you mention above, however even with this ultra-simplified drill, if there is no taisabaki going on it's being done incorrectly.

The issue I have with it (the others we do are dissimilar to the standard gekisai one) is that it is an "equal exhange" (you do this, now I do this) of technique, that is where I see merit in the criticism that you are simply learning to anticipate and react, rather than control.

I notice with the other bunkai I've learned I didn't really need to learn a pattern of exchanges, if you knew the kata you were capable of doing the bunkai, so uke just tries to punch you etc, and if you know the kata and what it means(with instruction obviously) you already have the tools you need to act against him.

Basically the others I have learned don't rely on someone trying to do a kata or a mirrored pattern against you to work, they just require someone to come at you with a semi-fixed pattern of punches, grabs, etc.



Now for my own criticisms... (hey everyone's a critic, this is the internet right!)

Keep in mind no offense intended here as I really like what I have seen of your work.

However I personally don't see the merit in learning constant taisabaki movement like that beyond what is naturally implied by most kata, circling around someone alot is (just my opinion) not a hugely useful skill, and only tangentially related to the way you evade someone when they are actually trying to hit you.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/13/08 08:14 PM)

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#394976 - 05/13/08 08:41 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:


Alot of people argue that this training creates a "reactive" mindset where you wait for the opponent rather than learning to control the situation




I think this view relies on a flawed assumption; namely that each move in embu is reactive.
Rather, each move is intended to dictate events by placing you in a dominant, controlling position.

Unfortunately every position has a weakness, so your opponent in embu can exploit this to 'turn the tables' - and so on...

It's like a giant game of 'rock, paper, scissors' - something can always trump you - if done early and appropriately enough.

This is where a dynamic environment is crucial. You need to be aware of the weakness you expose in each counter and react reflexively once you realise you are being / about to be trumped. This dynamic cannot be isolated and trained scientifically or methodically / thoroughly except in embu, in my experience.

At least that is how/why our embu are designed...

[cf. the old 2 person gekisai...]
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#394977 - 05/13/08 09:40 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Quote:

The issue I have with it (the others we do are dissimilar to the standard gekisai one) is that it is an "equal exhange" (you do this, now I do this) of technique, that is where I see merit in the criticism that you are simply learning to anticipate and react, rather than control.




Our embu sometimes have 2 or 3 attacks in a row - so it isn't just "you do this, he does this" etc. The idea is to create a dominant position. Yes, you do exchange dominant positions, but this is (a) part of learning how to hold a dominant position by flowing from one to another; and (b) learning how to stop your opponent from getting the upper hand.

The "exchange" element is is part and parcel of any "flow" drill - it defines it. However I am at a loss as to how to train "dynamically", yet methodically in any other way.

The best you can do is avoid a strict "you do, I do" - you go for "positions" each of which might involve a series of moves.

Quote:

Now for my own criticisms... (hey everyone's a critic, this is the internet right!)

Keep in mind no offense intended here as I really like what I have seen of your work.

However I personally don't see the merit in learning constant taisabaki movement like that beyond what is naturally implied by most kata, circling around someone alot is (just my opinion) not a hugely useful skill, and only tangentially related to the way you evade someone when they are actually trying to hit you.




I agree that constant taisabaki in itself is pointless. You should use it to evade attack and set yourself up in a dominant position. Our embu are not just about constant taisabaki. They are about learning to control your opponent and "staying in control". You need taisabaki for this, so taisabaki is the foundation. It is the means, not the end.
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#394978 - 05/14/08 04:47 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
I wouldn't agree that tai sabaki in itself is pointless.

The act of shifting and/or turning is a weapon in itself. It's just a question of timing and practice. The turns of Chinto or Seipai or those of any kata can be offensive maneuvers in their own right.
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#394979 - 05/14/08 05:16 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Victor Smith]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
You're probably right Victor - that was an overstatement.

What I meant was that taisabaki is a means (of evasion, of getting into a more advantageous or less dangerous position). The concept of karate isn't just to move fluidly - like a dance - but to use this as part of a defensive arsenal (and sometimes the taisabaki by itself can achieve an effective defence).

More importantly, I wanted to make it clear that our embu haven't been designed purely for taisabaki practice, but to enable practice of bunkai in a dynamic environment. This necessitates applying taisabaki as much as it enables practice/grooving of taisabaki.


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/14/08 05:39 AM)
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#394980 - 05/14/08 12:50 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

I've never quite understood this line of reasoning, if the above is true, how is it any less true for solo kata practice? I assume you do at least a little of that?




Well, a flow drill, such as the ones posted, are pretty much set in stone. What I mean is once you do one you are developing responses to attacks if you are training with fighting application in mind. Yes, you can flow one way or another, but if they continue to resemble the same type of "flow" as what was shown on the videos then this is the way you are training to react. When practicing solo kata you are practicing with visualization of application and this can represent whatever your fighting strategies are. They can be flow drills or they can be very different from these drills.

Quote:

Do you assume the same would be true of say Judo or Jujitsu kata that goes for a few moves? I don't.




I am not sure what you are referring to. Do you mean the two man kata which shows the application of their art, or resistive flow drills to gain grappling skill, which I said I do believe is an effective practice.

Quote:

I think it could ingrain bad habits, or it could be used to hone technique, obviously it's never a substitute for more free from practice, one of the best ways to train this stuff (imo) is to take a small bit, and practice "by the book" as you gradually move into new territory, and turn it into less fixed drills/sparring.




If this is so then why use a less effective practice?

Quote:

I personally don't know anyone who trains this kind of thing as a rigid, unchanging form, but hey maybe i've just not seen it.




Its not about being rigid or unchanging, its about training to NOT finish your opponent off. Its about training to strike a few times and then block a few times, etc. We are talking about application training right? I personally don't believe that such training is good to train application of techniques.

Quote:

In short, I think this stuff has it's place, but it also has it's limits.




Agreed, but I believe some practices are more limited than others.

When I think of the "flow" of karate I believe that as far as fluid movement goes, I do believe karate is like water. However, rather than a flowing river, it is like rapids or a water fall crashing on the rocks. And it is your opponent who will be swept up in your technique break on the rocks of your waza.
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#394981 - 05/14/08 03:55 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Hmmm...so what is your opinion on the standard Matsubayashi yakusoku kumites then? Did you drop them from your curriculum, or do they just have a limited place in your teaching?

Anyway, I think some of what you are saying here has alot of validity, I simply think these kinds of drills (especially at the beginner to intermediate level) have a definite positive effect when used in a measured way.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/14/08 04:01 PM)

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#394982 - 05/14/08 05:36 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Hmmm...so what is your opinion on the standard Matsubayashi yakusoku kumites then? Did you drop them from your curriculum, or do they just have a limited place in your teaching?

Anyway, I think some of what you are saying here has alot of validity, I simply think these kinds of drills (especially at the beginner to intermediate level) have a definite positive effect when used in a measured way.




The Yakusoku Kumite sets are a cornerstone of learning to apply kata techniques in kumite. However, the way they are usually practiced/demonstrated is not for combat training. Done right believe me, the "attacker" will break on the rocks or waza of the "defender" in yakusoku kumite.

If you notice they "end" with the defender attacking. In fact, any "blocking" the defender does is simply to gain a superior position to attack. In addition, when trained to fight steps backward by the defender are infact steps forward. Blocks strike and break your opponent's structure and at the advanced level there is more after the sets end. However, the "more" is not the defender then blocking some more and so forth, it is a continuation of the defender's assualt on his attacker. The drills hard wire a karateka to respond to attacks effectively. In addition, they are actually to be done full contact in a much more real sense than most practice them. If you mess up you get hit hard.
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#394983 - 05/14/08 07:09 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Well then it seems we don't have much to argue about, what you describe above is no different from good execution of the kind of drills we are talking about.

In fact i'm not sure what you were objecting to in the first place if you feel like this lol, apparently you do think yakusoku has it's place when done correctly.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/14/08 07:17 PM)

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#394984 - 05/15/08 02:13 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I don't know what you do Zach. I was only posting my opinion about the videos posted. Those are very different from the yakusoku kumite I practice.
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#394985 - 05/15/08 04:43 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Medulanet, I'm not sure why you feel the reaction being grooved in our embu is "bad"...

Presumably you groove your bunkai. By "groove" I mean inculcate or "ingrain" something into your subconscious. If you don't groove something, it cannot be used (you don’t have time in combat for anything other than grooved reactions). Any practice of bunkai is an attempt to groove that bunkai.

Our embu comprise bunkai - and fairly standard bunkai at that (slow them down and you'll see things done in IOGKF, Jundokan etc.). We use the embu to practice and groove bunkai. If the embu ingrain something “bad” then the kata and bunkai must be “bad” (and I don’t think they are).

You might well ask: “Why not do bunkai in isolation?” We do, but we also practice bunkai in the context of embu.

Why?

Standard bunkai practice is done in ippon kumite. The limitations of ippon kumite are obvious. It is a static and highly artificial environment (as noted by Patrick McCarthy in his pdf concerning the development of his HAPV drills). I'm sure you'll agree that no one ever attacks you in ippon kumite fashion. Ippon kumite attacks start from stationary and from a distance. Each attack is either known or highly predictable. It usually involves a committed step (rarely a lunge). The attacker does not react to your counter but remains motionless. From this perspective it is arguable that ippon kumite is of use only as a starting point (to isolate the technique).

Clearly you can develop 2 or 3 step kumite, but these are still very limited, imho. To really inculcate/groove something, you need it to be capable of “circular” repetition. You need a continuum.

The embu were designed to apply essential bunkai in a continuum. Will they groove reactions? Hell yes. That’s the idea. You seem to think any automatic reaction grooved in our embu is "bad", while the reactions grooved in your yaksoku drills are "good" - yet I can't see any reason other than you don't like our drills.

I can emphatically say these drills have improved my sparring. They have not "limited" me. Where before I never used bunkai in sparring, I now can and do. I see many other karateka not doing so - the gap between free-sparring and ippon kumite is too wide for many to breach. And all the standard yaksoku kumite that I've seen and practised over the years have been very basic and unrealistic, with almost no utilisation of taisabaki. That doesn't mean standard yaksoku kumite isn't useful - it has a purpose. But to say this is a better means of "pre-arranged" sparring is, imho, incorrect.

If you're concerned that we are limited only to certain bunkai, think again. We have tried to design each embu so that it contains all of the principle methods of movement inherent in the relevant kata. In determining which bunkai were to comprise the embu we spent many years carefully choosing movements that would enable extrapolation/adaptation into all the bunkai options. The embu are mine and my brother’s major work/thesis. We didn’t think them up overnight.

Moreover you will be aware that we have embu for each kata - each one covers different fundamental taisabaki and techniques. I don’t think we’re ever in danger of “being stuck in one rut”. I'd like to thing the embu cover every movement option available in goju kata (broadly speaking - there are unlimited variations, but only 8 principle angles of tenshin, etc.).

Btw - we still practice kata, and practice bunkai in isolation. However if you think mere "visualisation" while doing kata is, of itself, going to help you apply those moves in kumite I think you're mistaken. I see this as akin to imagining you have an opponent in tennis: you can practice against a ball machine/wall all you like, but it's no substitute for 2 person practice.

The analogy to tennis is, of course, of limited value, mostly because the total number of kinaesthetic variables in a game of tennis is only a fraction of those in hand-to-hand combat. However the analgoy is still valid to a point: even in tennis, a coach will still have you at the net doing volleys or at the baseline practising serves and forehand/backhand strokes before you actually start playing a game.

Fearing you might somehow be "limited" by embu is, to me, akin to fearing that learning backhand strokes will somehow leave you stuck doing backhands for every move. By analogy – we have tried to include "all the strokes". And like tennis players, we mix and match them subconsciously on the “court” - like any other sincere and hardworking “players”.

It is important to note that we have a good precedent for the effectiveness of embu-type drills. We have modelled our embu structure heavily on weapons systems that teach exclusively by this method. Take tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu - the oldest samurai tradition weapons school in existence (my teacher has a direct lineage to the founder). If you think their art is poorer for practising exclusively via 2 person kata, you'd be wrong. Arguably this is the key to their effectiveness.

You don't become "stuck" in certain ways because of the embu. In my experience you finally feel like you have a frame of reference. Because each embu is so different, your brain adapts, borrows and rearranges the elements subconsciously (just the same as a tennis player doesn’t think: “Time for high back-hand volley” – he/she just does it). However if you have no ingrained techniques to adapt, borrow, rearrange all you can do is make wild stabs at the ball.

Similarly in karate – without grooved techniques you go back to jumping up and down in some kind of "faux boxing" – the kind that is lamentably ubiquitous in karate/taekwondo/kung fu today. Take a look at the thread “No confidence in Traditional Martial Arts” for example.

Are our drills optimum? I can’t say that. Maybe you feel you have something better – and you might. But I can’t see anything in your arguments to support your dislike of our drills other than some kind of personal preference.

I have almost finished writing an article on the anatomy of our embu. This should explain more clearly our design methodology. Perhaps after you’ve read that you might have some specific criticisms and I will be happy to hear them.


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/15/08 04:54 AM)
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#394986 - 05/15/08 12:02 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

Medulanet, I'm not sure why you feel the reaction being grooved in our embu is "bad"...

Presumably you groove your bunkai. By "groove" I mean inculcate or "ingrain" something into your subconscious. If you don't groove something, it cannot be used (you don’t have time in combat for anything other than grooved reactions). Any practice of bunkai is an attempt to groove that bunkai.

Our embu comprise bunkai - and fairly standard bunkai at that (slow them down and you'll see things done in IOGKF, Jundokan etc.). We use the embu to practice and groove bunkai. If the embu ingrain something “bad” then the kata and bunkai must be “bad” (and I don’t think they are).

You might well ask: “Why not do bunkai in isolation?” We do, but we also practice bunkai in the context of embu.

Why?

Standard bunkai practice is done in ippon kumite. The limitations of ippon kumite are obvious. It is a static and highly artificial environment (as noted by Patrick McCarthy in his pdf concerning the development of his HAPV drills). I'm sure you'll agree that no one ever attacks you in ippon kumite fashion. Ippon kumite attacks start from stationary and from a distance. Each attack is either known or highly predictable. It usually involves a committed step (rarely a lunge). The attacker does not react to your counter but remains motionless. From this perspective it is arguable that ippon kumite is of use only as a starting point (to isolate the technique).

Clearly you can develop 2 or 3 step kumite, but these are still very limited, imho. To really inculcate/groove something, you need it to be capable of “circular” repetition. You need a continuum.

The embu were designed to apply essential bunkai in a continuum. Will they groove reactions? Hell yes. That’s the idea. You seem to think any automatic reaction grooved in our embu is "bad", while the reactions grooved in your yaksoku drills are "good" - yet I can't see any reason other than you don't like our drills.

I can emphatically say these drills have improved my sparring. They have not "limited" me. Where before I never used bunkai in sparring, I now can and do. I see many other karateka not doing so - the gap between free-sparring and ippon kumite is too wide for many to breach. And all the standard yaksoku kumite that I've seen and practised over the years have been very basic and unrealistic, with almost no utilisation of taisabaki. That doesn't mean standard yaksoku kumite isn't useful - it has a purpose. But to say this is a better means of "pre-arranged" sparring is, imho, incorrect.

If you're concerned that we are limited only to certain bunkai, think again. We have tried to design each embu so that it contains all of the principle methods of movement inherent in the relevant kata. In determining which bunkai were to comprise the embu we spent many years carefully choosing movements that would enable extrapolation/adaptation into all the bunkai options. The embu are mine and my brother’s major work/thesis. We didn’t think them up overnight.

Moreover you will be aware that we have embu for each kata - each one covers different fundamental taisabaki and techniques. I don’t think we’re ever in danger of “being stuck in one rut”. I'd like to thing the embu cover every movement option available in goju kata (broadly speaking - there are unlimited variations, but only 8 principle angles of tenshin, etc.).

Btw - we still practice kata, and practice bunkai in isolation. However if you think mere "visualisation" while doing kata is, of itself, going to help you apply those moves in kumite I think you're mistaken. I see this as akin to imagining you have an opponent in tennis: you can practice against a ball machine/wall all you like, but it's no substitute for 2 person practice.

The analogy to tennis is, of course, of limited value, mostly because the total number of kinaesthetic variables in a game of tennis is only a fraction of those in hand-to-hand combat. However the analgoy is still valid to a point: even in tennis, a coach will still have you at the net doing volleys or at the baseline practising serves and forehand/backhand strokes before you actually start playing a game.

Fearing you might somehow be "limited" by embu is, to me, akin to fearing that learning backhand strokes will somehow leave you stuck doing backhands for every move. By analogy – we have tried to include "all the strokes". And like tennis players, we mix and match them subconsciously on the “court” - like any other sincere and hardworking “players”.

It is important to note that we have a good precedent for the effectiveness of embu-type drills. We have modelled our embu structure heavily on weapons systems that teach exclusively by this method. Take tenshin shoden katori shinto ryu - the oldest samurai tradition weapons school in existence (my teacher has a direct lineage to the founder). If you think their art is poorer for practising exclusively via 2 person kata, you'd be wrong. Arguably this is the key to their effectiveness.

You don't become "stuck" in certain ways because of the embu. In my experience you finally feel like you have a frame of reference. Because each embu is so different, your brain adapts, borrows and rearranges the elements subconsciously (just the same as a tennis player doesn’t think: “Time for high back-hand volley” – he/she just does it). However if you have no ingrained techniques to adapt, borrow, rearrange all you can do is make wild stabs at the ball.

Similarly in karate – without grooved techniques you go back to jumping up and down in some kind of "faux boxing" – the kind that is lamentably ubiquitous in karate/taekwondo/kung fu today. Take a look at the thread “No confidence in Traditional Martial Arts” for example.

Are our drills optimum? I can’t say that. Maybe you feel you have something better – and you might. But I can’t see anything in your arguments to support your dislike of our drills other than some kind of personal preference.

I have almost finished writing an article on the anatomy of our embu. This should explain more clearly our design methodology. Perhaps after you’ve read that you might have some specific criticisms and I will be happy to hear them.




Dan, its not that what you do is bad for you, just for me. You talk about ippon kumite being bad for bunkai and kumite, but I don't believe this. The question is, does everyone understand what ippon kumite is supposed to develop. Ippon kumite is not about an attacker throwing one attack and then you countering while your opponent stands there. Ippon kumite is about learning to only allow your opponent one attack. It is first practiced with the attacker just throwing one attack so you can learn how your attack will "fit" into your opponent's. Then, your opponent will throw multiple attacks, as many as they want really, however, you will still stop his attack at least by the time he completes his first. Sometimes you will do it as he is launching his initial attack. It teaches disruption. The distance should not necessarily be long range. It only is if that is how you practice it. What you are describing to me is a very basic performance of ippon kumite and not really combat training. If done right the opponent will not be able to attack you back after his inital attack. He will either be on the ground, in great pain, or trying to defend and disengage. That is why I always tell my students and training partners to "really" attack me. In fact, karate doesn't work well when your partner is not trying to attack you will real energy.

As far as visualization in kata helping in kumite actually it does. It does because it develops the proper mind set. If done right it teaches you to attack in the face of an attack. Many times that is hard for people to do. The want to defend and then attack. Although we do do that, we also attack out opponent's attack and disrupt it. Try it, you might like it.
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#394987 - 05/15/08 12:28 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
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Marcel,

I sincerly do agree with you re the ippon kumite you describe, I also would really like to see someone, somewhere practice this method?

Surley it can't be just you and your students that work in this way?

What you describe is really good karate IMO, but how do you train it without injury?
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#394988 - 05/15/08 12:59 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
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We use controlled power. Meaning we strike hard enough in practice of affect a combative reaction, however, not enought to do serious injury. This method is not without pain, but I have not had one "serious" injury due to this training yet (knock on wood). And, at the same time you realize that you can deliver as powerful a blow as you wish to your target to get the desired reaction anywhere from pain to severe injury. We sometimes use protectors, but usually not. When striking to the head we either use open and strikes and make contact or stop just short with closed fist. Some may think that this is not sufficient to cause a realistic reaction, but I have found that most people are disrupted by a fist flying at their face at a high rate of speed. However, if we are wearing hand protectors then we make contact with closed fists as well. In addition, it really shows the value of low strikes with the legs, especially from naihanchi.


Edited by medulanet (05/15/08 01:07 PM)

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#394989 - 05/15/08 02:12 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
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interesting Marcel,

with respect I would have to see what you describe to begin to really digest what you say on this one. Is there any examples online of this kind of work?

If there isn't then I find that a little strange and guess until we meet up (one day I hope) im not going to really get what you describe.
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#394990 - 05/15/08 02:43 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
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The closest thing I have seen is some of the short clips of what Vince Morris does, however, I have only seen a little and I haven't really seen how they train. But I can tell he is using principles of okinawan karate similar to what my teacher has shown me.
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#394991 - 05/15/08 08:55 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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For what it's worth Marcel, we do this kind of ippon kumite (arguably not enough!)- but I still feel it has its limitations, only because every kind of training does.

And I agree - why do kata *unless* you visualise? Of course we do this. All I meant was that you need to apply bunkai.

Our embu is just a part of what we do. It seems to me that it isn't your chosen methodology and this is understandable. We are all different. Our emphasis on flow reflects a particular approach that might not be everyone's 'cup of tea'.

Btw - the embu (when done hard and fast) can be very dangerous. In our naifunchin embu on the net I actually stop the video at a particular point. What happened after that point is that one of the demonstrators wasn't fast enough with a deflection and got punched square in the face.

There's another "blooper" on the net where a student doing gekisai ni embu doesn't block a kick to the groin... (his partner 'pulled' the strike at the last millisecond so all he got was a bit of pain for his troubles...

Vince Morris? Love his stuff. He is an excellent karateka and I greatly respect his methods. In the late 80s we bought some of his books and applied his strategies. I recall he advocated multiple attacks (what we call renzoku kumite or "responsive" kumite). Very valid training methods. As I said earlier, we've been neglecting this type of training lately.

All in all there are many ways of skinning the proverbial cat and your approach is certainly valid.

Hope to train with you one day - where are you based?

Dan


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/15/08 09:33 PM)
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#394992 - 05/16/08 02:46 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
medulanet Offline
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Ultimately is about training so that you can respond effectively to an attack (and I mean any attack from a point fighter, to a full contact fighter, to a mugger). The bottom line is if your training produces favorable results then it is good training.

Right now I'm in Phoenix, AZ USA.
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#394993 - 05/16/08 10:05 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
Barad Offline
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Medulanet,

That is a fair desciption of how we train thanks to Vince's sometimes painful but expert methods , attempting to respond through flinch response (using say the opening movements of Kanku Dai or Nijushiho or Heian Nidan and Yondan)and body positioning to prevent any further attacks, unbalance and then counter and/or control. If I am understanding him correctly, Vince teaches to keep on striking in a flowing manner until it is over and you can get away in contrast to Shotokan-style single hopefully strong strikes in deep stance.

The flinch response and follow up can be practiced using a kind of ippon or jiyu ippon kumite but from close up, sometimes almost nose to nose and against hooks and grabs in the mix, not just oizuki et al...

If this is using Okinawan Shorin principles (which Vince has sometimes alluded to on courses), I am happy with that. Whatever it is, it seems to me to be effective.

B.

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#394994 - 05/16/08 01:21 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Barad]
shoshinkan Offline
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ok I understand now, Vince Sensei is very well respected for his methods.

Not sure I agree with the description however but we can move on.
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#394995 - 05/17/08 04:20 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: shoshinkan]
Barad Offline
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Hi Jim,

Which description do you disagree with, mine of the practices or Vince referring to them as Okinawan principles?

B.

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#394996 - 05/17/08 08:26 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Barad]
shoshinkan Offline
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sorry Barad, I wasn't clear.

My point was more in reference to Marcels (Medulanet) description of the effectivness of his fixed kumite practice.

It's not I don't beleive, I just can't quite visualize where he is coming from as a reality - helps to see and definatly to feel im sure.

I do see real benefit in commited fixed kumite drills, I just think we can often overstate their effectivness, hence my research and development into semi fixed and free practice.

It's actually not pointing a finger at Marcel, it's more based on the first 10 or so years of my own practice where the fixed drills were worked, very, very hard but did not take into account common methods of assault and set up.

I have been told Vince Sensei karate is superb, actually one of his students Don Sensei is just down the road from me, I should make the effort and visit, im sure it would be a good thing to do.

Of course i would be very interested in Vince Sensei Okinawna Karate background, I always remember him from his work on Shotokan Bunkai with Aiden Trimble Sensei, back in the early 90's if my memory is right.
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#394997 - 05/17/08 09:11 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: shoshinkan]
Barad Offline
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Posts: 427
Jim,

That would be Don Came I guess and you must be near Haywards Heath/Brighton? He is also very good (seem to remember he has smacked me on the nose a couple of times with pretty good control!), almost certainly the best of the UK Kissaki people. He teaches full time I think and is well worth a visit.

I think Vince has disowned the stuff he did with Aidan Trimble and I have a feeling there was some kind of falling out, I seem to remember Vince saying (and bear in mind I only see him a couple of times a year on courses so gossip is not top priority) that the stuff shown in the books with AT were not what he wanted to show but the publisher was not happy with the brutality of the techniques as Vince truly understood them. What he teaches now is quite different.

I am with you on the hard, repetitive drills that are flawed by being used only against "karate" attacks, not HAV-this is something I find refreshing about what we do now, not training as if a head height round kick or lunge punge to the stomach is the most likely attack. . .

If it is of interest, if you go to Don's club, you may see a practice called Shin Gohon Kumite (new 5 step sparring) which involves more common punches from close up either parried to the side with mawashi uke or deflected on the inside of the attack moving forward strongly, then an unbalancing technique (say knee attack to thigh GB31 if you had moved outside) then a strike and/or lock. It is meant to be a more realistic version of the drills we all did for years just stepping straight back.

B.

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#394998 - 05/17/08 11:07 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Barad]
shoshinkan Offline
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I will contact Don Sensei and try and get along to a couple of classes or workshops locally.

were derailing now....................LOL I can do that as a member only!
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#394999 - 05/17/08 05:07 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

sorry Barad, I wasn't clear.

My point was more in reference to Marcels (Medulanet) description of the effectivness of his fixed kumite practice.

It's not I don't beleive, I just can't quite visualize where he is coming from as a reality - helps to see and definatly to feel im sure.

I do see real benefit in commited fixed kumite drills, I just think we can often overstate their effectivness, hence my research and development into semi fixed and free practice.

It's actually not pointing a finger at Marcel, it's more based on the first 10 or so years of my own practice where the fixed drills were worked, very, very hard but did not take into account common methods of assault and set up.




Actually, I'm talking about where fixed become free and resistive. In fact, the true benefit of the fixed drills are not the attack, but the defense. Okinawan karate is about making a response to an attack work against ANY attack. Working a fixed kumite set without ever changing the structure of the attack is very limited. That is why there are variations on Yakusoku kumite. IMO if you are working a technique that will only work against one type of attack then you will not be very successful in combat. Okinawan karate defensive or recieving techniques are designed to deal with just about any empty handed (and many weapons) attacks. However, it is not just the technique itself, it is the intent and the way in which it is performed and practiced.
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#395000 - 05/17/08 05:31 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


Actually, I'm talking about where fixed become free and resistive. In fact, the true benefit of the fixed drills are not the attack, but the defense. Okinawan karate is about making a response to an attack work against ANY attack. Working a fixed kumite set without ever changing the structure of the attack is very limited. That is why there are variations on Yakusoku kumite. IMO if you are working a technique that will only work against one type of attack then you will not be very successful in combat. Okinawan karate defensive or recieving techniques are designed to deal with just about any empty handed (and many weapons) attacks. However, it is not just the technique itself, it is the intent and the way in which it is performed and practiced.




I'll agree with that, I was always taught that when practicing this kind of drill you are aiming to instill "non-diagnostic" responses to a wide variety of attacks.

However, I do think that ippon kumite-structured drills like this probably need to be augmented by some kind of "flow practice" with limited transitions and such as well, otherwise they will be automatically become static drills, no matter how hard you're attacking.

One step is just one step after all, and I think that like the renzoku drills they have their place, but they aren't all-encompassing.

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#395001 - 05/17/08 05:55 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
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Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:


Actually, I'm talking about where fixed become free and resistive. In fact, the true benefit of the fixed drills are not the attack, but the defense. Okinawan karate is about making a response to an attack work against ANY attack. Working a fixed kumite set without ever changing the structure of the attack is very limited. That is why there are variations on Yakusoku kumite. IMO if you are working a technique that will only work against one type of attack then you will not be very successful in combat. Okinawan karate defensive or recieving techniques are designed to deal with just about any empty handed (and many weapons) attacks. However, it is not just the technique itself, it is the intent and the way in which it is performed and practiced.




I'll agree with that, I was always taught that when practicing this kind of drill you are aiming to instill "non-diagnostic" responses to a wide variety of attacks.

However, I do think that ippon kumite-structured drills like this probably need to be augmented by some kind of "flow practice" with limited transitions and such as well, otherwise they will be automatically become static drills, no matter how hard you're attacking.

One step is just one step after all, and I think that like the renzoku drills they have their place, but they aren't all-encompassing.




Not quite Zach. If your definition of Ippon Kumite is that the attacker only throws one attack and/or that the defender only throws one counter attack then what you say is true. However, this is the Japanese Budo way of thinking. For Okinawan karate Ippon Kumite means stopping or limiting your opponent's attack to one attack. In fact, the Ippon kumite I work I allow my opponent to attack me with a variety of attacks and with any number of attacks. Then I utilize my techniques to deflect or destroy his first attack and get my attack off before he can connect with his other attacks or I intercept him before he can complete his initial attack. This is more the Okinawan working of Ippon Kumite. I also usually find that my attackers rarely even want to attack me with more than one attack because they will usually get nailed with my counter when they attack because to attack means to open yourself up to attack.
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#395002 - 05/17/08 06:18 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:


Not quite Zach. If your definition of Ippon Kumite is that the attacker only throws one attack and/or that the defender only throws one counter attack then what you say is true. However, this is the Japanese Budo way of thinking. For Okinawan karate Ippon Kumite means stopping or limiting your opponent's attack to one attack. In fact, the Ippon kumite I work I allow my opponent to attack me with a variety of attacks and with any number of attacks. Then I utilize my techniques to deflect or destroy his first attack and get my attack off before he can connect with his other attacks or I intercept him before he can complete his initial attack. This is more the Okinawan working of Ippon Kumite. I also usually find that my attackers rarely even want to attack me with more than one attack because they will usually get nailed with my counter when they attack because to attack means to open yourself up to attack.




Not quite Medulanet, I don't practice Japanese Karate either, and I've had a couple of really good Goju teachers so I know exactly what you are talking about, I simply feel it's only one part of a training regimen, and is just as limited as renzoku drills in it's own way.

Again, what you are describing is exactly the way I was taught to do ippon kumite, and I believe it still builds just as many bad habits as renzoku drills do if focused on in isolation.

You can argue with it all you want, but I have been exposed to and trained with exactly the kind of methods you are talking about, and I simply have come to a slightly different conclusion than you.

In fact i'll go as far as to say that way of practicing ippon-kumite type methods is maybe a little more widespread than you're implying. It's not like every dojo one comes across does the "you stand there while I hit you" variant of one steps, but I suppose it makes us all feel better to pretend we have unique and proprietary training methods.


P.S. All the lecturing on what is the "Okinawan method" of doing things comes off as very insulting, virtually no one on this thread so far has advocated the stereotypical ippon-kumite method, and if you read the responses I don't think anyone here doesn't get what you are talking about, and i'd wager most on the thread have participated in just this sort of training.

Perhaps it's possible that some simply have come to a different conclusion than you using the same methods?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/17/08 06:27 PM)

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#395003 - 05/17/08 07:28 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
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I am not saying that not many practice this method. In fact, I really don't know who does and who does not utilize this method outside of those with whom I have trained. However, from what you wrote it appeared you were describing the Japanese Budo method.

However, I am interested in hearing what limitations you see in this method and where a "flow" drill can help add the skills that these methods do not contain. For me, gaining the skill to stop an attacker cold and limiting them to no more than one attack is a good way to fight. And if that method is learned well, I really don't see what fighting environment it would not be effective.

For example you said,

Quote:

However, I do think that ippon kumite-structured drills like this probably need to be augmented by some kind of "flow practice" with limited transitions and such as well, otherwise they will be automatically become static drills, no matter how hard you're attacking.

One step is just one step after all, and I think that like the renzoku drills they have their place, but they aren't all-encompassing.




I am not sure who this statement mirrors what I am describing. How would the drills I am discussing become static. In addition you talk about one step being only one step. How does this equal the exchanges I mentioned? Please explain.
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#395004 - 05/17/08 11:42 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:


P.S. All the lecturing




It isnt lecturing it is informing.





on what is the "Okinawan method" of doing things comes off as very insulting,




To specific people it might. To most it is informative.

And legs are for walking with.

Jude

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#395005 - 05/18/08 01:34 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Loc: Australia
Marcel, you say:

Quote:

I am interested in hearing what limitations you see in this method and where a "flow" drill can help add the skills that these methods do not contain. For me, gaining the skill to stop an attacker cold and limiting them to no more than one attack is a good way to fight. And if that method is learned well, I really don't see what fighting environment it would not be effective.




Inherent in your comments is the assumption that flow drills do not contain moves that are designed to “stop an attacker cold”. This is fundamentally incorrect. In fact, flow drills can be seen as a series of “stop an attacker cold” attempts by both sides – each of which is thwarted, forcing each side into a defence of the other’s “stop an attack cold” counters.

In making your comment you no doubt considered the gekisai embu I have posted on the net. However bear in mind that just as the gekisai are basic kata, their embu are designed as basic embu. If you consider our naifunchin, seiyunchin, shisochin and sanseiru embu by comparison, you’ll note that they contain a higher degree of multiple attacks/counters and defences. The only difference between these flow drills and “responsive” yakusoku drills is that the drill continues – it does not actually “stop cold”. But this feeds into your question:

Quote:

What are the limitations of the “responsive” kumite method? How can a flow drill help?




It seems that you feel it is a weakness that one side is at no point “stopped cold”. You say:

Quote:

“Done right believe me, the "attacker" will break on the rocks or waza of the "defender" in yakusoku kumite… If you notice they "end" with the defender attacking.




However I think the continuing “flow” of the embu is actually both the strength of the embu and the weakness of standard yakusoku practice.

The only reason that the embu doesn’t stop is because the defender thwarts the attack. “Ah yes,” you might reply, “but my counter should be so good that it DOES stop the other side.” Wrong.

Every attack has its weakness. Drills where one side “stops” the other require the side being “stopped” to ignore the weakness in the attack (ie. to refrain from countering/responding to that weakness).

A drill only stops because one side lets him/herself be put into a position from which there is no escape. With free or semi-free sparring this is understandable; one side will make a mistake sooner or later. But in pre-arranged sparring (of which embu and yakusoku sparring is a variety) we should not groove a less than optimum response. If anything is grooving “bad habits” as you previously suggested, this is it. Both sides should do their best to “survive”. One side should not let itself be “broken on the rocks” (even if this is what both sides techniques are designed to do).

Our embu have been very carefully designed to move along the lines of least resistance. Each side responds in (what is hopefully) an optimum way to an attack/series of attacks. Sometimes there is only one way of evading a particular, decisive counter. In that case, this is the response taken by the defender.

Quote:

How would the drills I am discussing become static. In addition you talk about one step being only one step. How does this equal the exchanges I mentioned? Please explain.




This is answered above. Yakusoku drills stop. At that point they are static. However I can elaborate my point with an example. Imagine that your renzoku/yakusoku kumite drill consists to 3 moves:

(1) “A” initiates an attack or series of attacks;
(2) “B” defends against those attacks and performs a series of counters;
(3) “A” defends against those counters and performs a series of counter-counters that finish the sequence.

The drill is static at point (3) because “B” does not respond to the “counter-counters”. In fact, “B” stops his/her participation at point (2)!

However what if your yakusoku drill were cleverly designed so that the counter in point (3) were capable of being defended against by the techniques comprising point (2)?

(1) attacks (3)
(2) attacks (1)
(3) attacks (2)
(1) attacks (3)
and so on...

Both sides could then go “hell for leather”. Same techniques, same emphasis, same sequence, but one side doesn’t “stop” or “give in”. One side isn’t being trained to “lose”.

“But is this really possible?”, you ask. “Surely our embu must involve some element of compromise?” Well, we have certainly done our best to make sure they don't. We're not talking about "dancing": my brother and I have agonised over some movements for years. We might be wrong, but not for want of trying.

By the way, the pattern above (3 point drill) is very common in, say, arnis/escrima/kali (eg. box pattern single stick, de cadena trapping drills, etc.). I have found these to be freshingly pragmatic, if not essential in weapons. Why not karate?

Our embu comprise 5 to 10 point drills by comparison – mostly to try to get all of the “essential” bunkai into one package.

You admonished me once to "give visualisation of kata a go" (when in fact I do visualise, but I was making the point that this alone is insufficient for grooving bunkai). I now suggest to you: why don't you try embu practice? You might find it useful...


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/18/08 01:51 AM)
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#395006 - 05/18/08 04:17 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
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Quote:

Inherent in your comments is the assumption that flow drills do not contain moves that are designed to “stop an attacker cold”. This is fundamentally incorrect. In fact, flow drills can be seen as a series of “stop an attacker cold” attempts by both sides – each of which is thwarted, forcing each side into a defence of the other’s “stop an attack cold” counters.




Dan, this is precisely my point. In a flow drill you "attempt" to stop an attacker cold, but never do. The flow drills teach you to attempt to do so and then have your attempts thwarted by your opponent. So then how do you know if your techniques can actually do what you are training them to do? If your answer is some other drill where you use your techniques in a more realistic manner, then I ask you why practice the flow drill to develop fighting skill at all?

Quote:

In making your comment you no doubt considered the gekisai embu I have posted on the net. However bear in mind that just as the gekisai are basic kata, their embu are designed as basic embu. If you consider our naifunchin, seiyunchin, shisochin and sanseiru embu by comparison, you’ll note that they contain a higher degree of multiple attacks/counters and defences. The only difference between these flow drills and “responsive” yakusoku drills is that the drill continues – it does not actually “stop cold”. But this feeds into your question:

Quote:

What are the limitations of the “responsive” kumite method? How can a flow drill help?




It seems that you feel it is a weakness that one side is at no point “stopped cold”. You say:

Quote:

“Done right believe me, the "attacker" will break on the rocks or waza of the "defender" in yakusoku kumite… If you notice they "end" with the defender attacking.




However I think the continuing “flow” of the embu is actually both the strength of the embu and the weakness of standard yakusoku practice.

The only reason that the embu doesn’t stop is because the defender thwarts the attack. “Ah yes,” you might reply, “but my counter should be so good that it DOES stop the other side.” Wrong.

Every attack has its weakness. Drills where one side “stops” the other require the side being “stopped” to ignore the weakness in the attack (ie. to refrain from countering/responding to that weakness).




Yes every "attack" has its weakness, however, does every counter attack have its weakness? A counter is designed to take advantage of the weakness in an attack. For an attacker to take advantage of a counter attack, they must first find a way to defend against the weakness in their attack (that is if they know where they are weak)? This is where karate excels. Karate was designed to take advantage of the weakness of attacks, hence the saying "there is no first attack in karate." In addition, by stopped cold I don't mean that the drill stops simply because the sequence has ended. The drill stops when one person is on the ground and unable to launch an effective attack/counter attack. It is not an exercise in theory, it is an exercise in the reality of what is necessary to stop an attacker, put him down, and make sure he is unable to continue his attack. It teaches why your were successful, or unsuccessfull. In ippon kumite there is no predetermined winner. Only an attacker and a "defender". The only thing that seperates the two is the attacker attacks first. The same applies to yakusoku kumite beyond learning the sequence. When trained full contact for combat it is the same as the ippon kumite.

Quote:

A drill only stops because one side lets him/herself be put into a position from which there is no escape. With free or semi-free sparring this is understandable; one side will make a mistake sooner or later. But in pre-arranged sparring (of which embu and yakusoku sparring is a variety) we should not groove a less than optimum response. If anything is grooving “bad habits” as you previously suggested, this is it. Both sides should do their best to “survive”. One side should not let itself be “broken on the rocks” (even if this is what both sides techniques are designed to do).




To do this would mean no one would attack first, then there would be no training, and no one would improve. As you said there is an inherent weakness in an attack. However, to simulate someone attacking we have to be good training partners and someone must be the attacker.

Quote:

Our embu have been very carefully designed to move along the lines of least resistance. Each side responds in (what is hopefully) an optimum way to an attack/series of attacks. Sometimes there is only one way of evading a particular, decisive counter. In that case, this is the response taken by the defender.

Quote:

How would the drills I am discussing become static. In addition you talk about one step being only one step. How does this equal the exchanges I mentioned? Please explain.




This is answered above. Yakusoku drills stop. At that point they are static. However I can elaborate my point with an example. Imagine that your renzoku/yakusoku kumite drill consists to 3 moves:

(1) “A” initiates an attack or series of attacks;
(2) “B” defends against those attacks and performs a series of counters;
(3) “A” defends against those counters and performs a series of counter-counters that finish the sequence.

The drill is static at point (3) because “B” does not respond to the “counter-counters”. In fact, “B” stops his/her participation at point (2)!

However what if your yakusoku drill were cleverly designed so that the counter in point (3) were capable of being defended against by the techniques comprising point (2)?

(1) attacks (3)
(2) attacks (1)
(3) attacks (2)
(1) attacks (3)
and so on...

Both sides could then go “hell for leather”. Same techniques, same emphasis, same sequence, but one side doesn’t “stop” or “give in”. One side isn’t being trained to “lose”.

“But is this really possible?”, you ask. “Surely our embu must involve some element of compromise?” Well, we have certainly done our best to make sure they don't. We're not talking about "dancing": my brother and I have agonised over some movements for years. We might be wrong, but not for want of trying.




I see your points, however, in Yakusoku Kumite or ippon kumite when trained full contact (not full enough to permanently injure, but enough to cause pain and somewhat damage) They only stop when one man is put on the ground and not in a position to continue his attack. This is not static but very real. Remeber, I stated that I do flow drills, however, the ones I do are for conditioning the limbs and developing footwork and movement. For me they help me develop attributes, but not the timing and skill to fight. As far as the attacker being conditioned to lose that is not really the case. In fact, all attacks have inherent weakness to them. That is precisely why karate trained properly works so well and the statement "there is no first attack in karate" rings so true. Karate was designed to take advantage of such openings. As far as the attacker being conditioned to lose, this is not true. In fact, when I train my students in ippon kumite or full contact yakusoku kumite, I as the attacker often "win." This is due to the fact that they are still learning and often have difficulty dealing with my attacks. Theoretically and ippon kumite could continue on indefinitely with neither participant gaining the edge and putting his opponent down, but this is far from reality. However, in a flow drill you are trained to practice techniques which allow your opponent to thwart your attack and initiate their own. Isn't this conditioning people to lose just as an ippon kumite or yakusoku kumite with a predetermined winner is?

Quote:

By the way, the pattern above (3 point drill) is very common in, say, arnis/escrima/kali (eg. box pattern single stick, de cadena trapping drills, etc.). I have found these to be freshingly pragmatic, if not essential in weapons. Why not karate?

Our embu comprise 5 to 10 point drills by comparison – mostly to try to get all of the “essential” bunkai into one package.

You admonished me once to "give visualisation of kata a go" (when in fact I do visualise, but I was making the point that this alone is insufficient for grooving bunkai). I now suggest to you: why don't you try embu practice? You might find it useful...




I do practice flow drills, but not to develop fighting skill. I find it trains me to give too much to my opponent, where is when it counts I don't want to give him anything.
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#395007 - 05/18/08 05:50 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Hi Marcel

Your central point is validly made, and that is that ippon and yakusoku kumite are necessary for learning to execute final moves. I’ve never disagreed with this. Embu are deficient in not permitting this: this is their limitation. Again, I’ve never disagreed. That is why we do ippon and (to a lesser extent) yakusoku. However you asked what the limitations of these were and I obliged.

You said:

Quote:


Dan, this is precisely my point. In a flow drill you "attempt" to stop an attacker cold, but never do. The flow drills teach you to attempt to do so and then have your attempts thwarted by your opponent. So then how do you know if your techniques can actually do what you are training them to do? If your answer is some other drill where you use your techniques in a more realistic manner, then I ask you why practice the flow drill to develop fighting skill at all?




Unless you actually hit your partner, you’re not actually stopping him or her “cold’ either. All you get with at “stop” is the acquiescence of one side and the illusion of “stopping”. This is highly artificial. I’m not saying it doesn’t have its uses – just that it has its inherent weaknesses. You need to practice finishing moves, but this is not more or less realistic than embu. It’s just a different form of training.

Quote:

Yes every "attack" has its weakness, however, does every counter attack have its weakness?




In a nutshell, yes – unless you’ve totally misjudged your position, overcommitted etc. In my experience there is a defence to every counter if your strategy is good. If you “go down a bad road” you’re stuffed. Embu teach you not to go down that bad road. Yakusoku kumite can teach you to be a sitting duck. This is an inherent weakness (even if the advantages outweigh this).

Quote:

A counter is designed to take advantage of the weakness in an attack. For an attacker to take advantage of a counter attack, they must first find a way to defend against the weakness in their attack (that is if they know where they are weak)? This is where karate excels. Karate was designed to take advantage of the weakness of attacks, hence the saying "there is no first attack in karate."




I agree. None of this argues against the use of embu.

Quote:

In addition, by stopped cold I don't mean that the drill stops simply because the sequence has ended. The drill stops when one person is on the ground and unable to launch an effective attack/counter attack. It is not an exercise in theory, it is an exercise in the reality of what is necessary to stop an attacker, put him down, and make sure he is unable to continue his attack. It teaches why your were successful, or unsuccessful.




As discussed, you’ve just given a reason why ippon and yakusoku kumite is useful. Indeed, I agree. This was never the issue. The issue is, do these forms of pre-arranged kumite have an inherent weakness? Can these be cured with embu? The answer to both is, in my opinion, yes.

Quote:

In ippon kumite there is no predetermined winner. Only an attacker and a "defender". The only thing that seperates the two is the attacker attacks first. The same applies to yakusoku kumite beyond learning the sequence. When trained full contact for combat it is the same as the ippon kumite.




I’m afraid this sounds like a semantic argument. It is predetermined if you know who is the attacker and who is the defender. Other than that, I don’t see anything new arising from this argument.

Quote:

To do this [embu] would mean no one would attack first, then there would be no training, and no one would improve. As you said there is an inherent weakness in an attack. However, to simulate someone attacking we have to be good training partners and someone must be the attacker.




I’m afraid I disagree. There is no reason why embu shouldn’t involve hard attacks. In fact if you miss your defence you’ll soon feel the results! It is yakusoku kumite, but in a continuum. Furthermore, nothing stops you from agreeing with your partner to terminate the embu at the 3rd point and perform a finishing move. We often do this. We often take any 3 or so moves from the embu and construct a yakusoku drill.

Quote:

I see your points, however, in Yakusoku Kumite or ippon kumite when trained full contact (not full enough to permanently injure, but enough to cause pain and somewhat damage) They only stop when one man is put on the ground and not in a position to continue his attack. This is not static but very real.




I disagree. It is not “real” and it is static at a particular point. Why? The person being taken down doesn’t resist with a decent counter. Just because you think there is no counter doesn’t mean there isn’t one. Look closely at even those situations where you think you have your partner in an effective “checkmate” and tell me he/she doesn’t have options – most of which would thwart an elaborate take-down plan. If you’re still not sure, ask your partner to resist your final moves… (what someone else here likes to call “pressure testing”). Furthermore if your yakusoku drill leads one partner to do such a daft manoeuvre that he or she literally has no chance of defence against your counter you should ask whether you haven’t constructed a “paper tiger’ – just to knock it down.

Quote:

Remember, I stated that I do flow drills, however, the ones I do are for conditioning the limbs and developing footwork and movement. For me they help me develop attributes, but not the timing and skill to fight.




Yet I have done “embu” type training for fighting skills for many years – particularly in weapons training. I cannot overstate their effectiveness. You should try this method of training before you make your conclusions final. String together one of your yakusoku drills so that they “circular” as I suggested in my last post…

Quote:

However, in a flow drill you are trained to practice techniques which allow your opponent to thwart your attack and initiate their own. Isn't this conditioning people to lose just as an ippon kumite or yakusoku kumite with a predetermined winner is?




I couldn’t disagree more. Both partners are doing their best to win. You don’t “let” your partner thwart you! If he doesn’t thwart you, that’s his/her tough luck! The techniques don’t “allow” you to be thwarted either. Again, you assume that some counters have no defence. This is not true, unless you’re tactics are absolutely useless. What you are training is against “resistance”. You’re not letting your partner have an easy go. I learned this first in xingyiquan, where one you perform a counter with one of the 5 elements and think “he’s stuffed”. Only the next thing you know he’s pulled a rabbit out of the hat and you’re facing an “invincible” counter yourself.

In the end, the only “weakness” I see in embu is the obvious: it doesn’t have finishing moves. However these occupy so little of a series of technical moves. Most of the “magic” is in the set up. Having said that, we aren’t talking about scrapping ippon kumite or yakusoku kumite. We’re talking about augmenting them with embu…
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#395008 - 05/18/08 06:50 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
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Med,

above you commented that flow drills such as the embu don't teach timing or how to fight. I don't know how Dan teaches these drills, but as I understand them it is the complete opposite case.

My greatest experience of flow drills is from Taekwondo. a simple two kick combination drill such has roundhouse to back kick can teach a student almost everything they need to know about fighting.

One of the main points with any kind of flow drill is that each attack or counter thrown is an attempt at hitting and taking out the opponent. To that end the first thing a student has to learn is balance so that while he is evading his partner he can still counter effectively. Coupled with that will be distancing, beginners always dodge miles too far and have to learn to harmonise with their partner. Then follows speed, the student gets into the drill and tries to catch his partner out by moving faster, simultaneously testing his balance and distancing skills as he would in a real encounter. Then when the student realises that both he and his partner are moving top speed and no longer making mistakes (each of which got them hit by the other) leaving them at a stalemate, he will have to start working on his timing and subtle re-shaping of the technique in order to make it land. Adding pauses, half steps, shifting angle slightly. By forcing the students to limit themselves to the framework of the drill they are forced to explore every inch of the techniques which comprise it and how to make them land.

This is exactly how it went in TKD class. Stretch too much with the back kick and he lands both kicks on me. Be too conservative and I miss altogether.

Other drills will teach them how to finish the opponent once they have landed, either through combination striking or a control and take down, but the "fight", the exchange and struggle for dominance is best trained in an at least semi fluid environment where the student can play with the scenario. Is this not how it is done in grappling arts such as wrestling?

Where I feel the strength of 1-step lies is for developing the skill of controlling the opponent from their opening attack such that there is no option for them to retaliate. However training exclusively like this is nice in theory, but I've yet to encounter anyone who can employ it in every instance against every kind of attack.

When I trained 1-step in my old Karate school, by 6th kyu we had dispensed with formal stance and oizuki attack. By 5th kyu it was standard practice for the attacker to resist and continue fighting in whatever way he could. This only happened if the defender made a mistake because of the nature of the techniques being drilled.

Med, your description of the yakusoku kumite seems to waver between a drill and free sparring with a preset attacker? It's not a method I've trained but if it is like what Nagamine shows in his book I can't see how it is not static and artificial.
What precisely are the limits of the drill? Do both parties have pre-set techniques which they are meant to use?


Edited by Shonuff (05/18/08 06:54 AM)
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#395009 - 05/18/08 06:55 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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I forgot to say - what you're really learning in embu is that practically every counter can be countered. You learn how to "rescue" a situation. If you look at kata bunkai closely you'll see that is what some moves were intended for. It is my contention that some kata techniques can only be applied in such a dynamic environment - eg. when you're facing a strong counter while mid-kick, etc.

In the end the question is, what is the benefit of embu that can't be achieved with yakusoku? Simply put, it is the above. This is what I mean by a "static" environment. The first and last moves are not in a dynamic environment (i.e you are not applying a technique mid-fight except in the middle move. The first move starts things from nothing. The last move encounters no resistance.


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/18/08 07:08 AM)
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#395010 - 05/18/08 11:12 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
shoshinkan Offline
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Posts: 2662
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Dan Sensei,

how do you feel about the element of the effort to learn such complex routines over the actual benefits delivered (when considering the whole kata is drilled)?

Also whilst I appriciate and accept the benefits of flow drills (alongside other kumite practices),

however much we try they will not become resistive to a point they actually represent real life violence - they miss 2 major elements which is of course intent and variation, and the need to remain in flow is of course not how actual violence is tempo'ed.

I understand they perhaps are not the final awnser, but just a very good tool for skill development (and interestingly very rarely demonstrated by the Okinawan's until recently?), but wanted to inject these questions into the conversation.

Persoanlly I do work simplified flow drills to develop skills and find them of great use. But not to the detriment of other work.
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#395011 - 05/18/08 11:39 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: shoshinkan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Good question!

Actually I've been surprised at how easy they are to learn for the students. I was more concerned than my brother, but after being in hospital for 3 months I came back and everyone was right into it!

If you know the kata you can pick up the drill in a lesson. It's always a concern - adding sequences - but we usually grade on the embu well after grading on the kata for the first time. 10th to 8th kyu don't grade on embu at all.

We also do less walking up and down the floor type training nowadays.

Don't know if this is what many folks would agree with, but we obviously see the benefits enough to keep on with this program.

Also our philosophy is to keep to a kata-based syllabus; kata, embu and tuide all connected and no 'stray' drills etc. So rather than have many unrelated ippon/yakusoku/Hapv type drills, we've consolidated our kumite drills into 2: our embu and tuide lockflows.

Great reading your stuff btw Jim! I'll email you.
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#395012 - 05/18/08 01:09 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

Unless you actually hit your partner, you’re not actually stopping him or her “cold’ either. All you get with at “stop” is the acquiescence of one side and the illusion of “stopping”. This is highly artificial. I’m not saying it doesn’t have its uses – just that it has its inherent weaknesses. You need to practice finishing moves, but this is not more or less realistic than embu. It’s just a different form of training.




I think this is where the ippon and flow drills are different. It is a must that you actually hit. For example, if you actually hit during the flow drill then it might be over after the first few techniques or it might continue on for a few exchanges until one person is immobilized or put down. That is where I have a problem with training timing for fighting without contact. If contact was made in these flow drills I suspect they would look more like full contact ippon kumite and yakusoku kumite.
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#395013 - 05/18/08 01:33 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
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Sho, its important to understand that the photos the yakusoku kumite sets in Nagamine's book is a very basic guide the the sequence of the drill. But is not how the drill is used to train for combat. When training Yakusoku kumites at the higher level you are training in the spirit of the techniques, but with greater variability. Its about training principles, not techniques.

One important thing is that training never really is perfect. For example ippon kumite is the goal, but if an attacker strikes with a six strike combo and you are unable to stop him at one you don't stop, but disrupt the opponent when you are able and continue fighting until one is immobilized, put down, or maybe the fight carries out of the dojo into the street (slight exaggeration) so lets just call it threat neutralization. But you get my meaning. Even in failure to execute the "ippon" kumite drill you are learning about real timing for fighting. We don't not allow the "uke" to continue to fight back. In fact, that is where the drill's effectiveness comes in. It teaches how to stop a resisting and persistent attacker. In fact, the techniques don't really work right if the attacker isn't resisting and trying to attack you.
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#395014 - 05/18/08 01:39 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

This is what I mean by a "static" environment. The first and last moves are not in a dynamic environment (i.e you are not applying a technique mid-fight except in the middle move. The first move starts things from nothing. The last move encounters no resistance.




You are right. Some Yakusoku kumites are this way. However, when training them properly for combat, this is not the case. Its kind of like in kata. The "end" is not necessarily the end of the conflict. Sometimes it is just the follow through of the end. If you look to the transitional movements, you will see the fight enders. The rest is just icing on the cake. I think the no resistance and no hard contact thing is the reason why for many the "finishing" moves of yakusoku kumite meet with no resistance. Unless you do damage to your opponent you cannot finish them if they are resisting. A little contact in the right places will really take the fight out of most.
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#395015 - 05/18/08 02:05 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
jude33 Offline
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I have been reading this thread and trying to keep up either way here is my take.



The techniques from gekisai kata could stop a S/D situation. There are some tasty techniques.


To my mind the techniques taught in gekisai carry on to sepai. Both kata's can have the same techniques.

The two man flow drill I have been taught and I drill for gekisai, is more of where, what techniques are available, and when and how to apply the techniques, and to ingrain them. It is like techniques to put the person in that situation and then carry on to the next set of techniques ending with the same result eg partner in a bad situation.


Quote:


Unless you actually hit your partner, you’re not actually stopping him or her “cold’ either.





In two man partner drill training from said kata.
After a set of grab / parry opposite arm /redirect /pull and off balance, simulated strike to the side of the face/ jaw and the hand is now cupped around the testicles indicating ripping them after they would have been struck I think the partner would get the feeling of being unbalanced and that it is nearly game over , then the flow continues.

My kind of training . Dominant position where the other cant do to much because of one reason or another

So in a way I suppose it is a flow method to aquire, be aware what is available, and in grain the techniques but has the element of finishing techniques, with out injuring anybody.

But it is a set drill not realy free sparring as such.

Jude



Edited by jude33 (05/18/08 02:17 PM)

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#395016 - 05/18/08 02:37 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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Gekisai Dai Ichi and Sepai as in both kata's

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#395017 - 05/18/08 03:56 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
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Jim,

The flow in a flow drill is not in the rhythm/tempo of the movements but in the fact that it doesn't stop. In my post above I detail how both intent and variation with specific reference to the timing and tempo of the movements can be incorporated into the techniques of the drill. True intent of harm cannot be replicated in the dojo and is a seperate issue from any drill, but full power strikes aimed at the opponent are exactly that. Also the fact that you are training a pre-arranged sequence usually means people are more comfortable going harder as they know the opponent will defend. the skills and techniques I talked about are ingrained these drills come into their own as means of enabling the student to develop their ability to apply the techniques they have.
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#395018 - 05/18/08 04:25 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Shonuff]
shoshinkan Offline
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'True intent of harm cannot be replicated in the dojo'

yes I agree certainly with that,

I think my point is that flow drills deliver less intent than say commited ippon kumite type drills, they simply have to otherwise they cease to flow.

(they also have a reliance on both parties being skilled in delivery and receipt of force, hence another step away from an untrained/low trained aggresor).

Granted I see benefit in both practices and im certianly not knocking the method as it's something I work fairly regulary anyhow,

albeit simpler flow drills for specific strategy, tactics and techniques (to alow greater semi fixed options) rather than an entire kata strung together, and certianly against common methods of assault and delivery.

It's one of the reasons Kamate (ready hands) is a major concept in the classical kata in my opinion, another core principle is that of Honto (True) Kata Bunkai which I have spoken about before.

I certainly see merit in how Dan Sensei presents his excellent work and training, I just don't agree fully with the presentation of full kata drills.
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#395019 - 05/18/08 05:33 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:

Quote:


P.S. All the lecturing




It isnt lecturing it is informing.





on what is the "Okinawan method" of doing things comes off as very insulting,




To specific people it might. To most it is informative.

And legs are for walking with.

Jude




Hey Jude, if I want your opinion on my comments, i'll specifically solicit it by asking "please post useless inflammatory garbage with little or no content" Ok lil' troll buddy!

Other than that, some good discussion going on here, seems we definitely have some controversial opinions here lol!

Again, jump off Medulanet's leg please, he's shown himself more than capable of defending his own positions.

Anyway, IMO part of the reason to utilize drills with "steps" is to emphasize the ability to flow from one attack to another, the same principles apply as would in ippon-kumite style work, but the added flow is acknowledge and used to build the knowledge of always applying pressure to the opponent, even if the initial attack is less than successful.

Admittedly this kind of work can easily become artificial, and you have to take alot of care that this does not happen.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/18/08 06:01 PM)

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#395020 - 05/18/08 05:45 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: shoshinkan]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:

Dan Sensei,

how do you feel about the element of the effort to learn such complex routines over the actual benefits delivered (when considering the whole kata is drilled)?




Jim, in my experience the best drills in this vein are the ones that don't take much to learn, if you know the kata you know the drill, alot of what I have seen of Taira sensei's drills fall into this category, as do my own teacher's drills that i've picked up.

Uke is there to try to punch, grab you etc. and if you know the kata there is not really any extra memorization needed for the drill.

You dan do the whole drill or you can focus on a few steps.

Why do people find this practice so strange in Karate? It's no exactly unheard of in CMA, or FMA etc.

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#395021 - 05/18/08 07:38 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Hi Zach hows life?


Quote:


Anyway, IMO part of the reason to utilize drills with "steps" is to emphasize the ability to flow from one attack to another,


the same principles apply as would in ippon-kumite style work, but the added flow is acknowledge and used to build the knowledge of always applying pressure to the opponent, even if the initial attack is less than successful.

Admittedly this kind of work can easily become artificial, and you have to take alot of care that this does not happen.




What about we discuss your alternative drill to the kata and the applications that are in it? Seen as that was one of the links posted?


In detail? I would certainly describe the drill I practice after reading yours.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQeltFd_EKI

That was the link posted and the question was does anybody practice anything like it?

Jude

After you Zach?





Edited by jude33 (05/18/08 07:50 PM)

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#395022 - 05/18/08 07:57 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

I think this is where the ippon and flow drills are different. It is a must that you actually hit. For example, if you actually hit during the flow drill then it might be over after the first few techniques or it might continue on for a few exchanges until one person is immobilized or put down. That is where I have a problem with training timing for fighting without contact. If contact was made in these flow drills I suspect they would look more like full contact ippon kumite and yakusoku kumite.




Sorry, I can't see you contacting enough in class to really "stop" things. In my experience, even some quite strong blows haven't stopped the "flow" of combat, just wobbled it a bit. For your theory to work, you'd have to be hitting full power. In class? Hmmm.

In any event, if this is necessary for training it is, again, a reason for retaining ippon/yakusoku training. It doesn't mean that flow drills aren't necessary.
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#395023 - 05/18/08 08:03 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

One important thing is that training never really is perfect. For example ippon kumite is the goal, but if an attacker strikes with a six strike combo and you are unable to stop him at one you don't stop, but disrupt the opponent when you are able and continue fighting until one is immobilized, put down, or maybe the fight carries out of the dojo into the street (slight exaggeration) so lets just call it threat neutralization. But you get my meaning. Even in failure to execute the "ippon" kumite drill you are learning about real timing for fighting. We don't not allow the "uke" to continue to fight back. In fact, that is where the drill's effectiveness comes in. It teaches how to stop a resisting and persistent attacker. In fact, the techniques don't really work right if the attacker isn't resisting and trying to attack you.




I take it you're thinking of a multiple (eg. 6 strike) attack, where you attempt to stop the attacker at his first attack. Can he/she vary his/her response and try to deflect your counter or does he/she persist in pursuing the original 6 strike plan? If it is the latter, you're talking about a good drill, but one that also has severe limitations. If you're talking about the latter it is "semi-free" sparring. There is room for semi-free and free sparring, but it is hardly a forum for "grooving" bunkai.
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#395024 - 05/18/08 08:14 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:



What about we discuss your alternative drill to the kata and the applications that are in it? Seen as that was one of the links posted?






Sigh...ok. We practice the standard Goju Ryu Gekisai Dai Ichi drill you can find in Seikichi Toguchi's Okinawan Goju Ryu vol 1. After that the rest of our bunkai drills are from my own teacher and differ considerably, no i'm not gonna desrcibe them for you, you can go to one of my teacher's seminars or buy his books if you're so interested in some of the stuff i've been exposed to.

I do feel this gekisai drill is a little formulaic and I would replace it if I had a good replacement, though i'm not yet convinced Dan's is that much preferable, although it looks fine of and within itself. No offense Dan....as I said I do admire the stuff i've seen from you, i'm just not sure it's all that different from some of the more "traditional" renzoku drills i've seen.

Someone posted a video of this drill on the first page. We also practice plenty of more free-form application from Gekisai.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/18/08 08:18 PM)

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#395025 - 05/18/08 08:19 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

You are right. Some Yakusoku kumites are this way. However, when training them properly for combat, this is not the case. Its kind of like in kata. The "end" is not necessarily the end of the conflict. Sometimes it is just the follow through of the end. If you look to the transitional movements, you will see the fight enders. The rest is just icing on the cake. I think the no resistance and no hard contact thing is the reason why for many the "finishing" moves of yakusoku kumite meet with no resistance. Unless you do damage to your opponent you cannot finish them if they are resisting. A little contact in the right places will really take the fight out of most.




This is great in theory - hit your opponent hard enough and the rest of your finishing moves follow. I agree that this is good training. However I cannot see how it addresses in any shape or form my fundamental point: the drill is static. It ends. It might end for a good reason, but it is static at the beginning and at the end. At no point do you learn how to deflect an attack while you are mid kick, for example. Every counter (except the counters in the middle of a 3 point drill) either arise from a standing start or they meet with no resistance in the form of an attempted deflection. By resistance I mean that your opponent tries to block or defend your counter. This doesn't happen. We both know that the "loser" in the drill accepts your counters like a stunned mullet, even though he isn't stunned. As I said earlier, you'd have to counter with full power (and injure your students) to make this "realistic". And he/she would have to have the option of deflecting your attacks (as he or she would no doubt want to do if you were hitting full power).

Most karate ippon works on the principle of committed, "hito zuki, hito geri" attacks - single punch/kick, certain death. The attacks are very committed, and this allows the defender to perform defences suited to committed attacks.

In my experience of real combat, fully committed blows are not that common - especially not the kind you see in ippon.

Again, this doesn't mean ippon/yakusoku doesn't have a purpose. It just doesn't cover all the bases IMHO
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#395026 - 05/18/08 08:28 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

The two man flow drill I have been taught and I drill for gekisai, is more of where, what techniques are available, and when and how to apply the techniques, and to ingrain them. It is like techniques to put the person in that situation and then carry on to the next set of techniques ending with the same result eg partner in a bad situation...

In two man partner drill training from said kata.
After a set of grab / parry opposite arm /redirect /pull and off balance, simulated strike to the side of the face/ jaw and the hand is now cupped around the testicles indicating ripping them after they would have been struck I think the partner would get the feeling of being unbalanced and that it is nearly game over , then the flow continues.

My kind of training . Dominant position where the other cant do to much because of one reason or another.




I've previously discussed this drill Jude. It is longer than our embu for gekisai. It follows the kata too literally so you wonder why you wouldn't just do the kata.

The attacks are highly unrealistic and require learning a completely separate (lengthy) sequence.

The drill follows the kata so literally it doesn't feature any of the tenshin/taisabaki that comes from the standard bunkai.

The drill you speak of is, IMHO, so formal and artificial as to be of marginal value at best. At worst it is a time waster. I know - I did it for the better part of 2 decades.

If you're going to do 2 person drills, they should value add (like Pat McCarthy's HAPV). They shouldn't be the kata "dressed up a little" for the sake of it.
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#395027 - 05/18/08 08:31 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: shoshinkan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

'True intent of harm cannot be replicated in the dojo'

yes I agree certainly with that,

I think my point is that flow drills deliver less intent than say commited ippon kumite type drills, they simply have to otherwise they cease to flow.

(they also have a reliance on both parties being skilled in delivery and receipt of force, hence another step away from an untrained/low trained aggresor).

Granted I see benefit in both practices and im certianly not knocking the method as it's something I work fairly regulary anyhow,

albeit simpler flow drills for specific strategy, tactics and techniques (to alow greater semi fixed options) rather than an entire kata strung together, and certianly against common methods of assault and delivery.

It's one of the reasons Kamate (ready hands) is a major concept in the classical kata in my opinion, another core principle is that of Honto (True) Kata Bunkai which I have spoken about before.

I certainly see merit in how Dan Sensei presents his excellent work and training, I just don't agree fully with the presentation of full kata drills.




This post sums up the pros and cons of flow drills perfectly, IMHO. Whether you want full kata flow drills is a matter of opinion and taste. We do them, but I can see why others wouldn't. Well said.
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#395028 - 05/18/08 08:45 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Dan, just out of curiosity, did you also practice the Toguchi Saifa bunkai drill? What did you think of it in comparison?

I do agree somewhat with your criticism of the Toguchi drills, which is why the only one we do is gekisai, and parts of the Saifa one. However i'd be interested in your opinion on it if it's something you practiced.

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#395029 - 05/18/08 08:59 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

One important thing is that training never really is perfect. For example ippon kumite is the goal, but if an attacker strikes with a six strike combo and you are unable to stop him at one you don't stop, but disrupt the opponent when you are able and continue fighting until one is immobilized, put down, or maybe the fight carries out of the dojo into the street (slight exaggeration) so lets just call it threat neutralization. But you get my meaning. Even in failure to execute the "ippon" kumite drill you are learning about real timing for fighting. We don't not allow the "uke" to continue to fight back. In fact, that is where the drill's effectiveness comes in. It teaches how to stop a resisting and persistent attacker. In fact, the techniques don't really work right if the attacker isn't resisting and trying to attack you.




I take it you're thinking of a multiple (eg. 6 strike) attack, where you attempt to stop the attacker at his first attack. Can he/she vary his/her response and try to deflect your counter or does he/she persist in pursuing the original 6 strike plan? If it is the latter, you're talking about a good drill, but one that also has severe limitations. If you're talking about the latter it is "semi-free" sparring. There is room for semi-free and free sparring, but it is hardly a forum for "grooving" bunkai.




He can do whatever he wants. However, if he disengages and gives me room to escape I "win" remember, this is SD training.
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#395030 - 05/18/08 08:59 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
jude33 Offline
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I think we are talking about two seperate drills.

The drill I am refering to is for effective kata bunkia in other words what is available in that kata and drilling what is available .
Ingraining and keeping the techniques to memory. To me they have a lot of use.

But as I said it is a drill. Not free fighting or reality training.



Either way that is what I use them for.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/18/08 09:05 PM)

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#395031 - 05/18/08 09:08 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
medulanet Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

You are right. Some Yakusoku kumites are this way. However, when training them properly for combat, this is not the case. Its kind of like in kata. The "end" is not necessarily the end of the conflict. Sometimes it is just the follow through of the end. If you look to the transitional movements, you will see the fight enders. The rest is just icing on the cake. I think the no resistance and no hard contact thing is the reason why for many the "finishing" moves of yakusoku kumite meet with no resistance. Unless you do damage to your opponent you cannot finish them if they are resisting. A little contact in the right places will really take the fight out of most.




This is great in theory - hit your opponent hard enough and the rest of your finishing moves follow. I agree that this is good training. However I cannot see how it addresses in any shape or form my fundamental point: the drill is static. It ends. It might end for a good reason, but it is static at the beginning and at the end. At no point do you learn how to deflect an attack while you are mid kick, for example. Every counter (except the counters in the middle of a 3 point drill) either arise from a standing start or they meet with no resistance in the form of an attempted deflection. By resistance I mean that your opponent tries to block or defend your counter. This doesn't happen. We both know that the "loser" in the drill accepts your counters like a stunned mullet, even though he isn't stunned. As I said earlier, you'd have to counter with full power (and injure your students) to make this "realistic". And he/she would have to have the option of deflecting your attacks (as he or she would no doubt want to do if you were hitting full power).

Most karate ippon works on the principle of committed, "hito zuki, hito geri" attacks - single punch/kick, certain death. The attacks are very committed, and this allows the defender to perform defences suited to committed attacks.

In my experience of real combat, fully committed blows are not that common - especially not the kind you see in ippon.

Again, this doesn't mean ippon/yakusoku doesn't have a purpose. It just doesn't cover all the bases IMHO




Dan, if your definition of static is the drill ends, then I guess you are still doing your flow drills as you write. EVERY drill ends, right? And if we are talking about it theoretically ends, then if you opponent is never put down, immobilized, or disengages, then theoretically the ippon kumite could never end.

As for striking to end conflicts you don't have to hit full power and permanently injure to stop an attack for real. That is why kyoshu jutsu and tuite are utilized as well. Using joint locking techniques and hitting pressure points enable this. Take the legs out and you take the fight out of your opponent. Take the arms out and he cannot hit back. Take the wind out and he cannot fight. I don't have many adult students. I am grateful the ones I have don't mind taking a certain level of punishment, but this is a full contact practice after all. For me its like playing american football and never having any sort of hard contact practices. Yes there is a chance of injury, but that's the risks of our practice.
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#395032 - 05/18/08 09:15 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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I recall doing Toguchi's saifa drill years ago, but I no longer recall the pattern/sequence.

I recall it followed the same methodology which I believe to be "flawed". I say "flawed" but I don't mean this in disrespect. Everything is flawed. I have tried to improve the technology through a systematic and scientific approach based on my experience. I feel my drills are an advancement on Toguchi's, although I know this is a controversial view. I admire Toguchi's contributions greatly, but to assume that development should cease with the masters of old is, to me, absurd.

My brother and I have designed our embu because of a perceived need, not just for the sake of creating something. We are actually quite traditional in most respects and have the same skepticism about "new" things that many others share.

I felt it was important to explain and defend our approach in this discussion because we have invested so much time and effort in development and because I feel the embu "add value". If others are inspired to follow suit with their own drills (or learn ours) that's okay, but that isn't my busineass. If others choose not to use flow drills, that's okay too. So long as people understand our methodology and intention - it is too easy to misunderstand when all you see are some videos on Youtube (posted for the benefit of our students without any detailed explanation).
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#395033 - 05/18/08 09:18 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Oh yes Marcel - every drill ends.

The question is, has every technique been done in a continuum? We can cycle through the entire flow drill once or twice or more. But all the techniques have been performed in a dynamic environment at least once - including the "opening" move.

In yakusoku drills the first and last moves are just that - they are never "in the middle".

My point is that the embu can go on (as long as you need them to), not that they do go on.


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/18/08 09:40 PM)
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#395034 - 05/18/08 09:22 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:




As for striking to end conflicts you don't have to hit full power and permanently injure to stop an attack for real. That is why kyoshu jutsu and tuite are utilized as well. Using joint locking techniques and hitting pressure points enable this. Take the legs out and you take the fight out of your opponent. Take the arms out and he cannot hit back. Take the wind out and he cannot fight.




And those techniques along with others are in the drills I practice .The drills keep them in the brain.

Jude

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#395035 - 05/18/08 09:27 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

As for striking to end conflicts you don't have to hit full power and permanently injure to stop an attack for real. That is why kyoshu jutsu and tuite are utilized as well. Using joint locking techniques and hitting pressure points enable this. Take the legs out and you take the fight out of your opponent. Take the arms out and he cannot hit back. Take the wind out and he cannot fight. I don't have many adult students. I am grateful the ones I have don't mind taking a certain level of punishment, but this is a full contact practice after all. For me its like playing american football and never having any sort of hard contact practices. Yes there is a chance of injury, but that's the risks of our practice.




I don't disagree Marcel. There is less difference between us than you think. My point about "contact" was made in the context of your argument that yakusoku drills fill the void that embu fill. I feel that they do not, because your partner doesn't get the chance to resist your counter by deflecting it. And saying that you've "stopped" your opponent "cold" so that resistance in the form I've talked about is impossible is, IMHO, not realistic in the dojo.

If you tried to apply a tuide application on me after my attack, I'd do my best to resist and punch you at the same time. I wouldn't just let you. This is where embu comes into its own. It teaches you "how" to resist effectively - using kata bunkai.

BTW - in most of our embu one side attempts to perform a tuide, but the other side stops/thwarts it. This teaches you how to escape from a tuide application. On the other hand our tuide lock flows and bunkai let us apply them as you have suggested.

And I agree that a bit of contact is good.
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#395036 - 05/18/08 10:08 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

I think we are talking about two seperate drills.

The drill I am refering to is for effective kata bunkia in other words what is available in that kata and drilling what is available .
Ingraining and keeping the techniques to memory. To me they have a lot of use.

But as I said it is a drill. Not free fighting or reality training.



Either way that is what I use them for.

Jude




I assume you're talking about the Toguchi drill. If you are, my criticisms remain. It is not bunkai - it is a literal superimposition of attacks on the kata template. The kata was never designed to be a 2 person form. I've had very little "value" from this form, despite giving it a good go for almost 2 decades.

Sorry Jude - to me we're talking yesterday's technology. If you want something useful and don't like our embu, look at Pat McCarthy's 2 person drills by way of comparison.
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#395037 - 05/18/08 10:25 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Dan, in case you missed it, I was wondering if you have practiced the Toguchi Saifa bunkai, do you find it as undesirable as the gekisai one?

Personally I like bits of it, so that's what we've ended up practicing. It is as "artificial" as the other in some ways I suppose, but i've found that when broken into chunks some of the individual pieces are quite nice.

Anyway in general I concede I have to agree about most of the Toguchi drills, I was trained with some of these in beginning and we've ended up dropping most of them.

I still like Kiso kumite Nidan alot for beginners though.

I am ok with Gekisai drill as well if done correctly and with the right intent, though like I say your criticisms of it have some merit.



Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/18/08 10:37 PM)

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#395038 - 05/18/08 11:19 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Yes Zach, I did Toguchi's saifa drill years ago - I no longer recall its exact sequence. I also recall liking bits of it, but that it suffered from the same problems as the gekisai one; ie. the superimposition of attacks on a the kata template.

I have written an article on our embu describing their anatomy and purpose (still have to take some photos). Essentially they are built from the "ground up" on tenshin/taisabaki inherent in the kata bunkai.

This seemed to be sorely lacking in most "kiso kumite", sandan/yondan/godan kumite or the 2 person versions of kata I've seen around.

Our gekisai embu are fairly basic because the tenshin/taisabaki is basic in that kata. However these are necessary because you are, at that level, just learning the art of evasion. You'll see elements of Toguchi's drill in our gekisai embu (as there are elements of Toguchi's saifa drill in our saifa embu).

You'll also notice that the gekisai 2 embu is noticeably more advanced than the gekisai 1 embu. If you look at the seiyunchin one you'll see more realistic attacks (like those HAPV addresses) and more realistic defences, so that the embu does look more like fighting with the more sophisticated kata.

What I see embu doing is training you to apply your kata bunkai in sparring/fighting. I think this aspect is sorely missing in karate; most people do their kata and basics, then jump around doing faux boxing moves. There is no "bridge" between ippon/yakusoku kumite and free sparring.

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#395039 - 05/18/08 11:25 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Believe it or not, your seiunchin one looks a fair bit like the one my teacher does (unfortunately I don't know it yet).

I agree 100% on what you state the purpose of this training is.

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#395040 - 05/19/08 12:19 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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I wonder whether he wasn't inspired by our video? I designed that from scratch about 6 years ago and at the time nothing like it was "out there"...
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#395041 - 05/19/08 03:05 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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I definitely wasn't intending to say I thought that the drill came from yours, and I doubt it does.... Anyway, i've sent you a pm.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/19/08 03:17 AM)

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#395042 - 05/19/08 03:38 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Loc: Olympia, WA
I'd like to add that (imo obviously) having a good methodology for understanding kata bunkai will end up in different people having similar but individualized results, and that was my intention by mentioning the similarity...there is a little similarity but they are far from the same drill.

You're welcome to continue in the belief that no one anywhere does anything like what you do though.



Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/19/08 03:39 AM)

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#395043 - 05/19/08 04:30 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Indeed Zach - others will cover the same ground. It would be highly unusual for my brother and I to be the only ones pursuing the same research. Pat McCarthy is just one who has formed similar views over the same period (different focus and result, but broadly in agreement).

However our drills and their bunkai do have their individual "stamp" - I'd know if someone copied them!

I wouldn't mind - imitation is the sincerest form of flattery as we all know. But I hope my own lack of "self-promotion" for all these years hasn't resulted in someone else claiming my (or my brother's) work as their own! That wold be awful just from a personal perspective.

On the other hand it wouldn't affect me materially - I haven't even tried to sell myself on the "seminar" or "video" circuit nor do I have a particular interest in doing so (I doubt my health would allow it).

My brother once held a few seminars during a trip to Europe, but only for our students (our London branch) and some "friendly" dojos that we are in touch with.

I'm sure your sensei has his own ideas sources and drills. He probably thinks he can and has done a lot better than we have! This is only natural.
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#395044 - 05/19/08 03:13 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539



Quote:



I assume you're talking about the Toguchi drill. If you are, my criticisms remain.




Nope, but I will look at them though.
Quote:


It is not bunkai - it is a literal superimposition of attacks on the kata template. The kata was never designed to be a 2 person form.




I cant realy see that.

Quote:



I've had very little "value" from this form, despite giving it a good go for almost 2 decades.




Well I actualy found the opposite. Plenty of value.





Sorry Jude - to me we're talking yesterday's technology.




The stuff I am doing I wouldnt know if it was yesterdays technology but regardless of that it works.
Quote:


If you want something useful and don't like our embu,




Its not a case of dis-liking more its a case of a different direction.
Quote:


look at Pat McCarthy's 2 person drills by way of comparison.




I quite like some of his drills. I suppose one day when his style is more wide spread I would go and train.

I would still keep doing what I am doing.
Its a different direction. How can I say? More of the Chinese infleunce with the Okinawan input. Which realy is a contrast to what I would normaly do.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/19/08 03:15 PM)

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#395045 - 05/19/08 05:06 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
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Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
jude,

I'm not trying to bust your gonads,but your quoted posts are

I can't make out the quotes from your replies.

You still haven't made clear exactly what it is you do. Maybe you could post a video?
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#395046 - 05/19/08 10:54 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: BrianS]
student_of_life Offline
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Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
please post a video jude....
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#395047 - 05/20/08 01:16 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

jude,

I'm not trying to bust your gonads,but your quoted posts are

I can't make out the quotes from your replies.





The replies are outside the lines.
The quotes are inside the lines.
Quote:



You still haven't made clear exactly what it is you do.




I train?

Quote:


Maybe you could post a video?




Maybe I will get around to it one day but why would you want to see a video?

You mean for the drills for kata?

Well they are traditional drills formulated on traditional Okinawan goju ryu. They work. They arent something some one invented to formulate what they think trad karate should be.

By the way I didint invent them, I leave such things to people with the knowledge of trad goju ryu, but variations and improvisation on the basic themes are used.

Hope that helps.

Jude being politicaly correct.


Edited by jude33 (05/20/08 01:21 AM)

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#395048 - 05/20/08 01:31 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

please post a video jude....




Might do one day S.O.L. The problem with that is that what I do is traditional. In other words I dont use gloves or shin pads and I use the makiwari, weight training ( the modern version a deviation from trad training) and other things for limb conditioning.

With out those elements of training I doubt if the techniques in certain traits of trad karate could be used effectively. So me posting a video more than likely wouldnt be of much use unless the practice is trad karate.

Jude

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#395049 - 05/20/08 02:08 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Sorry Jude - but I just don't get what you're trying to say and why you can't post a video. I, for one, am interested in seeing your "trad" 2 person gekisai drill.
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#395050 - 05/20/08 03:26 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

By the way I didint invent them, I leave such things to people with the knowledge of trad goju ryu, but variations and improvisation on the basic themes are used.






What flavor of Goju do you practice? Who's/what drills are you using, what people are you being inspired by?

Are you actively training Goju with someone?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/20/08 03:31 AM)

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#395051 - 05/20/08 09:05 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
jude,

perhaps you could preview your posts, then you will see what I'm ta;king about.


Edited by BrianS (05/20/08 09:07 AM)
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#395052 - 05/20/08 12:15 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
no pressure, lol.

"The problem with that is that what I do is traditional."

i fail to see the problem with that? i practice a traditional style of karate too and you can see a few video's of my skinny pale but on the net.

"With out those elements of training I doubt if the techniques in certain traits of trad karate could be used effectively"

never asked you about that. but thanks.

"So me posting a video more than likely wouldnt be of much use unless the practice is trad karate."

but you do pratice a trad style? thats what you said? but in your bio it says your into mma now?

anyway, please post a vido of some of your training methods if you get the time, so we can have a good idea about where your coming from. thanks.
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#395053 - 05/21/08 02:51 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Sorry Jude - but I just don't get what you're trying to say and why you can't post a video. I, for one, am interested in seeing your "trad" 2 person gekisai drill.




To avoid any further confusion.
And to answer to most of the posts.

Video wouldnt be much point. Perhaps one day but certainly not at this moment in time.

The drills arent mine. They are trad Okinawan Goju Ryu with a lineage straight back to the founder. Not something some else made up.

The drills and the kata go together.



Conditioning plays an important part in the techniques.

Some trad karate styles dont use conditioning. With out that conditioning some of the techniques wouldnt be effective.
One example being the maki wari.
The other being quite intensive weight training.

MMA and judo I practice as well once or sometimes twice a week are sport in that the techniques used are fairly safe. The judo throws however can be easily reversed back to their original intention.

Trad karate I practice isnt a sport.


Regards the strain of goju? The strain doesnt interest me.
Who does what with whom is politics. I have no interest.
What I practice and see works. I practice with a goju practioner.

That I hope answers all your questions.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/21/08 03:06 PM)

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#395054 - 05/21/08 03:34 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


The drills arent mine. They are trad Okinawan Goju Ryu with a lineage straight back to the founder. Not something some else made up.




Really? if you're claiming lineage and training that goes directly back to Miyagi Chojun i'm sure we'd all love to hear about that.
Even some of the bigger names in Goju don't make quite such grandiose claims, so if you're going to I'd suggest giving a little detail if you want to be taken seriously.

Quote:


Regards the strain of goju? The strain doesnt interest me.
Who does what with whom is politics. I have no interest.
What I practice and see works. I practice with a goju practioner.

That I hope answers all your questions.

Jude




No, it doesn't answer any of the questions, despite being argumentative and rude about it, you've failed to even explain or mention one single drill you practice, on a thread where that is the very subject.

Evidentally you can't even describe what vein of Goju you are practicing or who with, pretty suspect to say the least, why should we listen to you when you refuse to provide even this basic information?

At one time you claimed to not even practice Goju (you mention this in the "by jove they've got it" thread) and were simply making an independent study of Goju kata, so which is it?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/21/08 03:46 PM)

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#395055 - 05/21/08 03:48 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Ok

If I study goju kata then it would seem logical I would be exposed to some goju teachings.

Quote:



No, it doesn't answer any of the questions, despite being argumentative and rude about it, you've failed to even explain or mention one single drill you practice, on a thread where that is the very subject.




I am not going to get in to a personal issue here.

I asked earlier in the thread for a comparison for the techniques found in the basic kata.

For some reason you didnt supply one.

I have been studying goju kata for just over a year.
You ask about certain drills.?
Drills with techniques taken from the kata.
So what I would like see happening is we do a comparison of the techniques in that kata. Then we could determine who has done the amount of study or not. Because if a person doesnt know the extent of the kata then how can they create the drills to cover that kata?
Quote:



Evidentally you can't even describe what vein of Goju you are practicing or who with, pretty suspect to say the least, why should we listen to you when you refuse to provide even this basic information?






So we could prove it by seeing yours and my basic knowledge of that basic kata?

I think if you begin? as I requested?

Jude

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/21/08 04:16 PM)

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#395056 - 05/21/08 04:00 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Ok

If I study goju kata then it would seem logical I would be exposed to goju teachings.




Really? So watching some stuff on youtube can constitute training? No, you need someone to teach you or train with you in Goju, just like any MA you can't spontaneously absorb something just because you like it.

Quote:


I asked earlier in the thread for a comparison for the techniques found in the basic kata.
For some reason you didnt supply one.
We can still do it if you would like to?
I will let you lead.




I have no idea what you are talking about (big surprise), maybe you can explain it and i'll get back to you. I'm fine with talking about Goju kata, because I actually practice them, and I actually have trained in Goju, and have and do train some of the very drills (the toguchi ones) being deabted in this thread. I don't claim any expertise here, just that i've done the time and I do the drills.

I'm also open about who I train with and what I do. Maybe you should consider doing the same?

Quote:


All the big names dont have a lineage back to the founder?
Which big names?
I find that extremely amusing.
Here is something for you to work on.
Find out the names of the people who studied with the founder.
Trace the lineage through to associations found in The United States.
Then find the ones in the UK.





Or maybe you should just quit beating around the bush and pony up who you train with since you seem to think it's ok to claim a direct link to the founder of Goju Ryu on an internet forum?


Quote:


How can I study goju kata with out absorbing goju teachings?

Jude




"Studying" a martial art on your own is not the same as receiving in or participating in instruction with other people, i'm not sure if this is the case with you though, since you are totally evasive about what you actually do.

Everytime a new subject gets posted it appears you "study" it.

hmmm.


Anyway, for people who aren't Jude33.....new subject, do you think that these sorts of drills are best when there is equal play between attacker and defender, or do you think that they are best when there is a clearer relationship between Tori and Uke?

Alot of people questioned Taira senseis bunkai drill shown here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmExIWEglSo
For lack of interaction from uke, to me this can in some ways be a plus, I do think there is something to be said for the "back and forth" creating bad habits sometimes.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/21/08 04:05 PM)

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#395057 - 05/21/08 04:25 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Posts: 1539
Ok

I am not making this personal.

If a person doesnt know the full extent of the kata,( as far as can be worked out) or havent realy studied that kata then how can they proffes to know and create drills?

I would like it if you took me up on the offer ?.

I find avoiding discussing the technical aspects or reality aspects of karate, or self defence is something un- usual

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/21/08 04:47 PM)

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#395058 - 05/21/08 04:31 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
"I am not making this personal."

no one is making it personal? asking who you train with is not a personal question? or who tought you the kata your studying? or the drills your working that based on the kata?

but you still havent answered any of the questions and somehow you keep posting? i don't get it at all, lol.
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#395059 - 05/21/08 04:35 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


Really? So watching some stuff on youtube can constitute training?




I find that some what personal.
Quote:


No, you need someone to teach you or train with you in Goju, just like any MA you can't spontaneously absorb something just because you like it.




I dont know what your referring to.

Quote:


I asked earlier in the thread for a comparison for the techniques found in the basic kata.
For some reason you didnt supply one.
We can still do it if you would like to?
I will let you lead.




I have no idea what you are talking about (big surprise), maybe you can explain it and i'll get back to you. I'm fine with talking about Goju kata, because I actually practice them, and I actually have trained in Goju, and have and do train some of the very drills (the toguchi ones) being deabted in this thread. I don't claim any expertise here, just that i've done the time and I do the drills.





Fine then we can compare the techniques that are in the kata. And please do me the honour of not getting personal?
Or didnt you recieve a PM about this subject from the moderator?



Quote:


All the big names dont have a lineage back to the founder?
Which big names?
I find that extremely amusing.
Here is something for you to work on.
Find out the names of the people who studied with the founder.
Trace the lineage through to associations found in The United States.
Then find the ones in the UK.
Quote:



Or maybe you should just quit beating around the bush and pony up who you train with since you seem to think it's ok to claim a direct link to the founder of Goju Ryu on an internet forum?




I find your manner offensive.
I train with a goju stylist who knows what he is doing.
Why I should have to state his name on here is beyond me.
Quote:



How can I study goju kata with out absorbing goju teachings?

Jude




"Studying" a martial art on your own is not the same as receiving in or participating in instruction with other people, i'm not sure if this is the case with you though, since you are totally evasive about what you actually do.




I study with a goju stylist.

Quote:


Everytime a new subject gets posted it appears you "study" it.





I find that remark personal. I study.
Quote:


Anyway, for people who aren't Jude33..





I find that remark personal.

Quote:


...new subject, do you think that these sorts of drills are best when there is equal play between attacker and defender, or do you think that they are best when there is a clearer relationship between Tori and Uke?

Alot of people questioned Taira senseis bunkai drill shown here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmExIWEglSo
For lack of interaction from uke, to me this can in some ways be a plus, I do think there is something to be said for the "back and forth" creating bad habits sometimes.



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#395060 - 05/21/08 04:43 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Jude, yes we both were told to cool it by a moderator. I don't really think i'm doing anything wrong here, i'm simply asking you to qualify some of the stuff you post, if you don't want me to do it then stop posting the stuff in question.

If a moderator doesn't like it I suppose they can tell me, however it's you that are jumping into threads with certain claims, then getting upset when people ask you to qualify your claims, or ask for further detail, if this bothers you you shouldn't be involved in the discussion.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect myself or anyone else invloved in this thread to sit back and ignore it while you go haywire with weird claims and statements about the subject of the thread.

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#395061 - 05/21/08 04:43 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

"I am not making this personal."

no one is making it personal? asking who you train with is not a personal question? or who tought you the kata your studying? or the drills your working that based on the kata?

but you still havent answered any of the questions and somehow you keep posting? i don't get it at all, lol.




I train with a goju stylist.

If Zack would care to state what he finds in the said kata.
Then all this could be easily cleared up. Every time I ask something technical nothing happens.
Drills are created for kata.
So let us compare the techniques in the kata.
Then we can see if Zach knows this kata?
After all knowledge of the kata should be there before
a person can comment on drills?

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#395062 - 05/21/08 04:45 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Jude, yes we both were told to cool it by a moderator. I don't really think i'm doing anything wrong here, i'm simply asking you to qualify some of the stuff you post, if you don't want me to do it then stop posting the stuff in question.

If a moderator doesn't like it I suppose they can tell me, however it's you that are jumping into threads with certain claims, then getting upset when people ask you to qualify your claims, or ask for further detail, if this bothers you you shouldn't be involved in the discussion.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect myself or anyone else invloved in this thread to sit back and ignore it while you go haywire with weird claims and statements about the subject of the thread.



.I would like to see your knowledge on this basic kata.

Are you willing to do it or would you prefer not to?


Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/21/08 04:46 PM)

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#395063 - 05/21/08 04:51 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:

"I am not making this personal."

no one is making it personal? asking who you train with is not a personal question? or who tought you the kata your studying? or the drills your working that based on the kata?

but you still havent answered any of the questions and somehow you keep posting? i don't get it at all, lol.




I train with a goju stylist.

If Zack would care to state what he finds in the said kata.
Then all this could be easily cleared up. Every time I ask something technical nothing happens.
Drills are created for kata.
So let us compare the techniques in the kata.
Then we can see if Zach knows this kata?
After all knowledge of the kata should be there before
a person can comment on drills?




Lol, I don't need to justify anything to you dude, the subject of the thread is renzoku drills/embu what have you. We ere discussing the comparative merit's of Dan's way of doing bunkai as opposed to the Toguchi-style gekisai drills.

If there's a specific kata application or drill you want to talk about i'm all for it, but you're making yourself look ridiculous trying to put me on the spot like you are.

As far as application from Gekisai, you can take the first technique (in most versions a jodan-uke upon turning to the left) and find many different things there, you can close them off and disrupt balance while attacking the ribs, you can open them up with a forearm strike, or simply check grab and control while getting inside their gaurd for the coming punch, there are a ton of simple and effective things in Gekisai that can be practiced in a sort of free-from ippon-kumite fashion.

The topic of the thread though, has been centered around pre-arranged "flow" drills, at my dojo we still practice the Toguchi Gekisai drill, though I will say that we practice it a little differently in some ways.

Are you questioning whether I know Gekisai? I hope so it's the first kata I teach and the first I was taught! In fact I practice all the kata of Goju minus Suparinpei, as to be honest I don't remember it.

Not sure why you continually misdirect these questions at me, as I said i'm open about what I do and about my own training, i'm not the one hiding from reality here.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/21/08 04:56 PM)

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#395064 - 05/21/08 05:06 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Lol, I don't need to justify anything to you dude, the subject of the thread is renzoku drills/embu what have you. We ere discussing the comparative merit's of Dan's way of doing bunkai as opposed to the Toguchi-style gekisai drills.



And to discuss such a matter a good understanding of the kata should be known. kata study is on going. The kata is revisited time and time again.
Quote:


If there's a specific kata application or drill you want to talk about i'm all for it, but you're making yourself look ridiculous trying to put me on the spot like you are.




I wont get personal. I requested and if you care not to thats fine.





As far as application from Gekisai, you can take the first technique (in most versions a jodan-uke upon turning to the left) and find many different things there, you can close them off and disrupt balance, you can open them up with a forearm strike, or simply grab and control while getting inside their gaurd for the coming punch, there are a ton of simple and effective things in Gekisai.




Well that is one thing we agree on,





The topic of the thread though, has been centered around pre-arranged "flow" drills, at my dojo we still practice the Toguchi Gekisai drill, though I will say that we practice it a little differently in some ways.




That is my point. If the kata is only partly understood and flow drills are created then perhaps the flow drills can be at fault.
Either way I am sticking to doing what I do.

If you would like to compare techniques fine if not thats fine.

As regards my comments to the flow drills posted.
It isnt the direction I am going.

Jude

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#395065 - 05/21/08 05:18 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


That is my point. If the kata is only partly understood and flow drills are created then perhaps the flow drills can be at fault.
Either way I am sticking to doing what I do.





Since you still haven't mentioned what exactly it is you do as an alternative, i'll wait for that before going further.

In the previous post I mentioned a small bit of what we do with Gekisai drills, including the Toguchi drill, now it's your turn, how do you train bunkai from Gekisai?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/21/08 05:47 PM)

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#395066 - 05/23/08 10:36 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:


That is my point. If the kata is only partly understood and flow drills are created then perhaps the flow drills can be at fault.
Either way I am sticking to doing what I do.





Since you still haven't mentioned what exactly it is you do as an alternative, i'll wait for that before going further.

In the previous post I mentioned a small bit of what we do with Gekisai drills, including the Toguchi drill, now it's your turn, how do you train bunkai from Gekisai?




Zach I dont believe you have fully explored Gekisai.
That is the reason I asked for a comparison.
I would like to know the techniques you have aquired.
If and when you decide to post them then I shall to.
I think they will be worlds apart.

After you!

Jude

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#395067 - 05/23/08 10:48 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Alot of people questioned Taira senseis bunkai drill shown here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmExIWEglSo
For lack of interaction from uke, to me this can in some ways be a plus, I do think there is something to be said for the "back and forth" creating bad habits sometimes.




Questioned it in what way?
If there is something you dont like about what he does why dont you contact Taira sensei and ask him ?

Jude

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#395068 - 05/23/08 11:29 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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i hate to be a stick in the mud, but you were asked to post a video first, lol. it's like if someone calls "shotgun" and you steal the front seat on them, we've all known the rules since we were 10. put up or shut up, please.
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#395069 - 05/24/08 12:34 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

i hate to be a stick in the mud, but you were asked to post a video first, lol. it's like if someone calls "shotgun" and you steal the front seat on them, we've all known the rules since we were 10. put up or shut up, please.




I dont teach or have major opinions of drills or want to show the world something. So why would I want to post a video?

Any way these postings are leading to nothing so I can no longer see yours or zachs posts

Jude




Edited by jude33 (05/24/08 12:45 AM)

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#395070 - 05/24/08 01:23 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: harlan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Jude - is this the drill you do (or something like it)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLG2YpNerYs

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#395071 - 05/24/08 02:37 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
BrianS Offline
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I think jude does something more along the lines of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpdmNWPYPgE&feature=related
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#395072 - 05/24/08 06:04 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: BrianS]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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That was most unkind Brian!
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#395073 - 05/24/08 06:40 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Shonuff Offline
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Unkind, but Jude's behaviour warrants nothing better.

Quote:

Alot of people questioned Taira senseis bunkai drill shown here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmExIWEglSo
For lack of interaction from uke, to me this can in some ways be a plus, I do think there is something to be said for the "back and forth" creating bad habits sometimes.




I always thought that this was a demo as opposed to a bunkai drill. Also as I read the movements the primary point of this kind of fluid, semi-grappling, continuous, drilling attack is to control the movements of the opponent in a chi-sau-esq manner.
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#395074 - 05/24/08 07:00 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Shonuff]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Personally I liked Taira's drill enormously.
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#395075 - 05/24/08 07:47 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Shonuff]
Ronin1966 Offline
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Hello Shonuff:

Am.... torn by what I saw.

The angles & lighting of the seiuchin application make it difficult to see (easily) what they are doing IMHV. Not sure I like/loved several angles used actually adheared to their kata. If not...

The second, and third clips use the upper body a great deal. Don't know those forms but concerned the drills do not connect to the lower body correctly-enough.

Speed & fludity is fine, dare I say "correct" speed

Jeff


Edited by Ronin1966 (05/24/08 08:00 PM)

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#395076 - 05/24/08 08:23 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Ronin1966]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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The first 2 are basic kata and therefore basic embu Jeff - they teach basic tenshin/taisabaki that comes from the bunkai. The seiunchin embu has more subtle tenshin and more realistic attacks.

I've written an article on our embu and their anatomy that I believe is to be published here soon. That will help explain their purpose and methodology.
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#395077 - 05/24/08 08:51 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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your ignoring me because i asked you to put up or shut up? sweet!
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#395078 - 05/24/08 10:07 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: student_of_life]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Maybe he's doing as you've asked Raul - he's shutting up.
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#395079 - 05/24/08 11:00 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Ronin1966]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

Not sure I like/loved several angles used actually adheared to their kata. If not...




I'm afraid I don't follow you. The angles "adhered to" are taken directly from kata bunkai. The process of developing this embu took many years of painstaking work, so the "angles" were most carefully considered. In fact they were critical. If you followed the rest of the thread you'll note that we used tenshin/taisabaki from kata bunkai as a foundation. The science of tenshin is all about using angles of evasion and, of course, deflection and interception. I invite you to consider my article on this subject: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/05/taisabaki-and-tenshin-evasion-in-karate.html.

Quote:

The second, and third clips use the upper body a great deal.




As I said these are basic (as are the gekisai kata). I'm not sure what is wrong with using the upper body a lot - but the upper body use is consistent with the gekisai kata. For comparison note Toguchi's 2 person drills which have, without doubt, influenced our own drill (although we have tried to design ours to avoid some of the deficiencies we feel are presented in those drills, such as insufficient use of evasion and too slavish adherence to a kata that was never meant to be a 2 person form).

Quote:

concerned the drills do not connect to the lower body correctly-enough.




I'm afraid you've lost me. I don't know what you mean by "connect to the lower body correctly-enough". The individual techniques are standard bunkai. If they don't "connect correctly-enough" the difficulty you have is with the bunkai, not our sequence. I find it hard to respond to "off the cuff" comments such as this when the embu have been so deliberately and carefully designed with reference to Chinese, Okinawan and Japanese arts as a backdrop.

Needless to say, my upcoming article should provide more detail in the anatomy of the embu. You might disagree with our methodology, but it will at least allow a greater understanding of what went into their design.

Quote:

Speed & fludity is fine, dare I say "correct" speed



Thank you.
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#395080 - 05/24/08 11:34 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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I forgot to add - the angles/bunkai in the seiyunchin embu are sometimes not what is generally taught in goju. Rather we have used the internal arts as a reference point. Consider the forward tenshin applied with sokumen te awase uke as depicted here: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/04/sokumen-te-awase-uke.html.
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#395081 - 05/25/08 02:12 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:

Jude - is this the drill you do (or something like it)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLG2YpNerYs






Just so you know, Jude has never explained one single drill, application, or anything else he trains in, he likes to spend his time trolling my posts instead usually. I'm hoping he really has put me on ignore as finally I will be rid of him!

Here are my thoughts on the Toguchi drill: it teaches positions, not techniques, you can easily take an actual Goju technique such as the shiko-takedown naka-daka ippon ken(think that's right) from Sepai and it fits in perfectly after the chudan uke-punch sequence, there are alot of parts in the drill like this, it just teaches positions for beginners. That's my view on it, it is a starting point.

Also, as far as taisabaki in the drill, this is where I think my training differs a bit from your approach, we do not spend much time doing any kind of circling movement as evasion, we practice the "getting small" and blending you see in many movements in Goju kata, we practice close in angles, and we practice going through and "splitting" the opponent in receiving techniques.

While I can greatly respect your work Dan, the circling movements and almost aiki-style evasion (sorry if you don't like the term, I can't think of anything better to describe it at the moment) do not fit into my own understanding of Goju Ryu. That said, there are many different interpretations of Goju and I suppose that I wouldn't have it any other way. All in all what you're doing really looks great and it's a shame we are so geographically removed otherwise i'd definitely be wanting to visit!

So on the Toguchi drill... I would argue that the drill for it's level is adequate when used, though if I had something as an alternative i'd entertain the possibility of dropping it.

Again, I do think it's quite decent for it's level, I would say the same for most of the Toguchi drills, they seem to be great material for beginners, but something to be moved away from beyond entry level.

Also when Ronin mentioned the thing about not being connected, i'm gonna hazard a guess that he actually meant the mechanics used, and not the content of drills themselves.

It's difficult for me to verbalize exactly, but I will say the way you guys move is definitely different from the way I was taught to move in Goju, obviously it works great for you guys though, is this maybe also the CIMA influence?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/25/08 02:28 AM)

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#395082 - 05/25/08 02:41 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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I agree that the Toguchi drills aren't a bad start - they have a role for beginners. That said, I think our "beginner" embu are far more useful (but that's just my opinion, I might be wrong, of course). Toguchi's drills tend to be taught to more senior students in many dojos - long after anything other than conditioning is obtained from them.

What most people misunderstand with our gekisai embu is that they are strictly for beginners - the tenshin (evasion) is larger, just like basic bunkai where you move 45 degrees back, etc. This is actually quite basic.

If you look at the seiyunchin embu the tenshin is very subtle - moving in and splitting angles very finely indeed. In our shisochin embu the evasion is even more abberviated.

In other words the "aiki" style evasion is a basic: an enlarged or magnified movement. It functions just like most people's ippon kumite bunkai. However, just like basic blocks, the movements become smaller, more subtle in the higher kata. Understanding the basic tenshin lets you apply and understand far more subtle evasive skills.

In the internal martial arts this level of ability is taken for granted. Evasion is barely noticeable.

I don't understand what you mean by "mechanics" re Jeff's post. Suffice it to say I understand that our approach is sometimes quite different to others. That's not the same as "wrong". I personally believe that a lot of information has been lost over time (unavoidably). Our research has attempted to resurrect that knowledge. We might be wrong, but at least we are sincere and honest. And, I dare say, scientific and thorough.

Many posters (like the fellow who keeps trolling your posts) like to denounce our efforts, sometimes with flippant comments that reflect a political bias (ie. "we don't do it like that in our kaiha, so it must be wrong"). Nevertheless I always try to give them the benefit of the doubt. It doesn't mean that I am not inwardly [censored] that someone has casually dismissed my hard work and sincere efforts.

However I have often found that when I have let a person explain themselves a bit more, I've learned something I didn't know before.
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#395083 - 05/25/08 03:11 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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You'll note from my tenshin article the 8 principle angles of evasion. However this description is, at best, a crude description that permits beginners to begin understanding evasion.

For example, we tend to use terms like 45 degrees back/forward. This is just a label for a complex angle that depends on the nature of the attack and the experience of the defender. In reality it could be just a sliver of an angle. And also, it might not involve just forward at an angle, nor sideways nor any one of these: it might involve a compound movement that varies during the movement itself. So I have found anyway.

In our school we have attempted to take all these factors into account as well as the student's level of ability in structuring our drills and syllabus. None of this is apparent to casual observers - many of whom are just plain derogatory without offering any basis for their criticisms.

Your friend has, so far, been a case in point and it was his comments that brought first my brother, then me, to this forum.

Having said that, I've found this forum to be populated principally by intelligent, pleasant people who are willing and able to discuss things thoughtfully, so I am thoroughly enjoying the company and the input.

I am only too aware that there are many ways of skinning a cat, so I am interested in what others are doing. Even if I don't adopt what they do, it doesn't mean I wouldn't recognise a particular drill as useful.

I've been scathing of Toguchi's drills without intending to be. This is what happens when you focus on what you perceive to be flaws and ignore good points. Toguchi's gekisai 2 person drill is, as you point out, still useful. I didn't abandon it lightly, nor should anyone.

Both gekisai embu adopt bits of Toguchi's drill (ironically the parts that use more "upper body" - ie. the maegeri/empi/uraken/footwseep sequence and its defence).

I also like to teach beginners the basic Toguch 3 step kumite (zenkutsu, shiko, sanchin) which is very much like the opening moves of the Toguchi gekisai embu. It all has its place...


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/25/08 03:19 AM)
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#395084 - 05/25/08 12:40 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Our bunkai/renzoku/whatever drills after beginner level aren't the Toguchi ones anymore, mostly for the reasons you mention, the intermediate ones more resemble what I have seen in Taira's videos than the Toguchi ones.

Again, I actually agree with some of your criticisms of the Toguchi drills, but they also have some good points for beginners, such as forcing people (albeit in an artificial way) to actually move in sanchin stance while someone punches at them. They also have numerous failing, the biggest one for me being overcomplicated patterns and way too much redundancy if you actually use all the drills.

Anyway, my own questions and statements about your drills are just a reflection of the different way I have been taught and my own conclusions, I definitely don't think there's "wrong" in what you are doing, it's simply different from the Goju i've been taught. That's not a bad thing.

I hope that I haven't been one of the ones posting unqualified crap about your drills, for my part i've been posting because your work is interesting and has both big similarities and differences to what I do, and what i'm taught.

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#395085 - 05/25/08 03:03 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Shonuff Offline
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Dan, what causes you to see evasion in your kata movements?

i.e When you analyse your kata and devise your bunkai what keys or signals within the kata sequence do you interpret as tenshin/tai-sabaki?
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#395086 - 05/25/08 06:53 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Your input has been absolutely welcome Zach. You make good points and I'm interested in your approach. Just because we've designed a way of training doesn't mean it is the only way (or even the optimum way) of doing things. It is just our way.

We both know the kinds of unconstructive comments I'm referring to...

Dan
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#395087 - 05/25/08 07:47 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Shonuff]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Hi Shonoff.

With gekisai we take a very basic approach - we use basic tenshin (45 deg. back sanchin, neko, shiko etc.) as used in IOGKF and others. Some of the tenshin comes directly from the kata - eg. open door back into shiko.

With the higher kata the tenshin is in the embusen. A forward step followed by a pivot 180 degrees (saifa, shisochin) is a forward angled evasion followed by a pivot to face your opponent. The 'conventions' for bunkai 'packaging' are remarkably consistent in China and Okinawa. Turns are often larger for training purposes and because the kata needs to turn you to a specific angle. But the core tenshin (eg. step, then turn) is the same.

Consider my comments in relation to shisochin here: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/05/karate-and-chinese-martial-arts-part-1.html and in relation to seiyunchin re. sokumen te awase uke here: http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/04/sokumen-te-awase-uke.html (note tenshin there is directly forwards, but emoloys an upward circular deflection aided by the raised front foot).


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/25/08 08:11 PM)
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#395088 - 05/25/08 08:35 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Of course, nothing says it as well as a picture...



Shisochin has a "open door" into zenkutsu in the kata that can also be applied with a step (ie. step, then open door). The "step" is always an option in higher kata as it is just a distancing thing. You'll notice that in the kata the "opening" movement is large - taking you through 180 or 90 degrees. On the other hand the kata application involves a very small move. You probably can't tell that my brother Nenad "opened" slightly in the above application. But he did, and understanding the tenshin as a "larger" move helps you abbreviate it and apply it in a more economical way.

So to answer your question, the tenshin is the embusen, but done in a more exaggerated way for training purposes and also just to turn you around in the kata...


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/25/08 08:41 PM)

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#395089 - 05/26/08 01:25 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
BrianS Offline
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That was completely fake.
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#395090 - 05/26/08 02:00 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: BrianS]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

That was completely fake.




Eh?

Depends on whether you think I've included it a clip of a "real blow" or as an example of tenshin/taisabaki (the evasive move preceding the blow).

I thought it was quite obvious that Jeff "rode" the blow (he was "pushed" but threw himself backwards at the same time). But just in case there is any misunderstanding, I never meant to suggest that Jeff was actually hit so hard that he flew backwards. This was a demo of shisochin bunkai during a festival in 1993, and demos have to be a bit "theatrical" to be entertaining!

Other than that, the clip shows a legitimate and effective bunkai and a provides a good illustration of the subtlety of applied tenshin/taisabaki to which I referred in my previous 2 posts...

(You have to admit Brian that Jeff did a pretty good "crowd-pleasing" job - and we both know that you do still take a bit of a hard knock in these sorts of demos.)
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#395091 - 05/26/08 06:01 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Shonuff Offline
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Dan,

thanks for the reply, it was very interesting.

I find when looking into Shotokan kata for the same things that much of the evasion actually requires you to reverse the direction of the technique as it is performed. I beleive this is a deliberate part of the kata's construction and is what was really meant by "hidden meanings" of kata.

Would talk more but the Mrs is ordering a clean up day and Karate or not, she'll wup my ass if I don't get started.
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#395092 - 05/26/08 06:23 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Shonuff]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

I find when looking into Shotokan kata for the same things that much of the evasion actually requires you to reverse the direction of the technique as it is performed. I beleive this is a deliberate part of the kata's construction and is what was really meant by "hidden meanings" of kata.




We have 2 shorin kata in our system - our Fukyugata (similar to Heian/Pinan shodan) and Naifunchin/Tekki shodan. My instructor started with shotokan. Our tekki is the shotokan version.

I used to think the shorin kata required reversal of embusen to effect tenshin for bunkai. This underlies our approach to heian/pinan at an early phase.

However my instructor always said that the advanced application required you to move into the attack. I have recently come to agree with him. I believe that if you look closely enough you'll see "forwards tenshin" or "forwards at an angle" tenshin making sense of the movements. I believe the reverse is actually relatively basic...

I reach this conclusion by comparing the moves in karate generally with the internal arts where you often move into the attack and intercept it early. Some call this "slowing the attack". Moving away is called "speeding the attack". The latter has its uses but it presents the problem of closing the gap again. It also fails to turn the evasion into an attack.

I might be wrong, but that's my 2 cents at the moment...
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#395093 - 05/26/08 08:34 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Shonuff Offline
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Dan,

you are correct about applying the moves as shown without reversing direction, one of the main purposes of kokutsudachi in Shotokan is to slip past the opponent. However, another use is to void attacks by creating space which the opponent falls into, negating the need to close the gap and leaving them completely vulnerable to a counter. Knowing when and how to evade is what turns evasion into offence.

To me slipping and entering offer different opportunities to stepping and pivoting. I don't particularly see one as more advanced than the other as they are equally difficult to apply in different circumstances and if your aware of how and when they are each best applied you'll see that neither method is better, just a different tool. The key is knowing the circumstances that make one method more appropriate (which is not necessarily when it is easier to apply). Many Karateka seem to focus alot on what they are doing: how they move, how they generate power etc. Actually what how and why the opponent is doing what they are doing is at least as important and should be a major consideration of any bunkai.

Also as I've said, I don't view Shotokan as one system but more a collection of different systems each defined by a single or group of kata. Some rely more heavily on evasive movement (like Kanku-dai), others more on invasive movement (like Hangetsu) so things change the more specific the discussion becomes.
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#395094 - 05/26/08 09:48 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Shonuff]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Yes - there is room for both "making space" and closing the gap. In goju it is the same. I was speaking in very general terms that what might appear to be best "in reverse" is often not - it is just more subtle.

There are moves in goju kata for both, of course. The same must be true for shotokan - I'm afraid I'm no expert with shorin-based kata!
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#395095 - 05/26/08 10:29 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
BrianS Offline
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You are right about that Dan.

Sorry I misunderstood the intent.
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#395096 - 05/26/08 11:10 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: BrianS]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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No worries Brian.

Shonuff and Zach -

There are only one or 2 moves in goju kata that I "reverse" in bunkai and I'm not sure what to make of these. I think this topic would make a fascinating separate thread, because I wonder whether -

(a) the kata were deliberately designed that way "as a code" (something I think is a bit overstated nowadays); or

(b) the kata were deliberately designed that way for an application I haven't seen; or

(c) the kata were deliberately designed that way for training or symbolic purposes (eg. stepping forward on the last move in gekisai dai ichi), not for any particular bunkai; or

(d) the kata have been wrongly passed down in respect of a particular move (sanseiru has some intriguing variations in this regard, and I wonder whether one move in particular should actually be done "in reverse").

Suffice it to say, I'll start another thread when I can get my thoughts together with concrete examples (or maybe one of you would like to pre-empt me?).
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#395097 - 05/27/08 01:23 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
BrianS Offline
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Dan,

Just wondering,but do you have any video's of applications that aren't theatrical or against passive opponents?
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#395098 - 05/27/08 02:31 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Just my own take on evasion/tenshin/tai sabaki what have you:

Many of the turning motions in Goju kata i've learned as throws, takedowns or something similar, so I personally don't see these as implying evasion themselves specifically.

I see whatever there is of "defensive" movement (really even this is pretty offensive obviously) implied by most kata techniques themselves.

Taking the simplest as an example, the first technique in Gekisai by it's very nature involves evasive body movement to some degree, the thing is in my view you do not often need to consciously make big steps to "move out of the way" of strikes, you make small movements that put you in an advantageous position to attack his attack and break it.

Many of the techniques you see in neko washi dachi involve a different, maybe "softer" form of evasion as I've come to understand it, but it still to me is not really stepping out of the way as much as it is getting small and blending with whatever is being thrown.

I don't think it's possible to know how kata was meant to be interpreted in any reliable way, so to me it's more important that I have a good methodology for comprehending it that yields functional results and drills for training. It's been my (admittedly limited) experience that when you have this people tend to coem up with similar, though individualized versions of kata applications, probably exactly as it should be.

For the record, I do not consider myself to have a good grasp on application at all for kata other than:

Seisan
Saifa
Sepai
Seiunchin
Gekisai (if you wanna count it)

Even on these i'm certainly no expert but I do feel i've been taught enough that they have become the ones I focus on. Just for myself those four koryu kata I think are more than enough for me to study for some time. I am also 'junior' in terms of time in the style and as a dan rank.

And in fact Sanseiryu is probably my least favorite kata, and sorry to say I haven't given it much thought beyond the techniques it shares with Seisan, and maybe the last technique of the kata.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/27/08 02:47 AM)

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#395099 - 05/27/08 03:31 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: BrianS]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

Dan,

Just wondering,but do you have any video's of applications that aren't theatrical or against passive opponents?




I'm not sure what you mean by "passive opponent" - Jeff was kicking and was caught mid-kick by Nenad. He could have tried to block the counter, however that would have started to stray into the yakusoku/embu territory. In fact our gekisai ichi embu covers precisely this scenario: you're mid-kick and notice it is being deflected and that you will be countered with a punch which you then suppress using the third last move of gekisai ichi.

I'm also not sure we're on the same page re: theatrical: it just so happens I spoke with Jeff last night and reminisced about that demo. Jeff said that he took a blow but that it was (his words) "superbly controlled" by Nenad. I agree. In the actual video (not the gif obviously) you can hear the impact. Jeff of course also rode the blow well.

The theatrics only extended to Jeff throwing himself backwards a bit further than he might have. In other words, without any "theatrics" he would have fallen closer to Nenad or might just have stumbled back. It hardly nullifies the effectiveness of the bunkai nor makes it "passive".

Does this answer your question? I have loads of bunkai on youtube without any theatrics from my "attacker"...
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#395100 - 05/27/08 05:40 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

Many of the turning motions in Goju kata i've learned as throws, takedowns or something similar, so I personally don't see these as implying evasion themselves specifically.




Yes, but how do you deal with the initial attack in order to apply the throw, etc. I presume you make some sort of step or twist or other body movement (however small) - this is either in the kata (or an abbreviated move in the kata) or it is the reverse of the kata (or an abbreviated version of the reverse) or it is not in the kata at all.

Remember that just because our gekisai embu has some "larger" moves as tenshin doesn't mean that I view all tenshin as "large movements". The are ultimately quite subtle. I found that many students didn't seem to be aware of what they were doing in the context of setting up a throw etc. Focusing on tenshin/taisabaki has given them the means to categorise, standardise and understand this science.

Quote:

I see whatever there is of "defensive" movement (really even this is pretty offensive obviously) implied by most kata techniques themselves.




Exactly. But what to do with, say, the leg catch in sanseru? It is performed with a step forwards. Have you ever attempted a leg catch moving into your opponent in sparring? I'll bet you've only ever done it after the point of full extension has been reached - ie. when the kick has passed its point of maximum outward speed and is beginning to or is about to retract. This scenario pretty much only occurs when you have stepped back and caught the leg. This is one of the few examples of a "reverse" step to what one does in goju kata. By and large the kata movements correspond with what you actually do. But sometimes they don't...

Quote:

Taking the simplest as an example, the first technique in Gekisai by it's very nature involves evasive body movement to some degree, the thing is in my view you do not often need to consciously make big steps to "move out of the way" of strikes, you make small movements that put you in an advantageous position to attack his attack and break it.




I don't disagree at all. The first move in gekisai is really obviously evasive. The fact that you might make a smaller (very subtle) move in sparring to achieve your result is incidental. The kata will tend to "magnify" or enlarge turns, moves etc. as I discussed previously.

Quote:

Many of the techniques you see in neko washi dachi involve a different, maybe "softer" form of evasion as I've come to understand it, but it still to me is not really stepping out of the way as much as it is getting small and blending with whatever is being thrown.




Call it blending, call it what you will. This is the science of tenshin. It isn't about "stepping out of the way". Tenshin is about using your body to set you up for a counter as well as "dealing with the attack" - in much the same way that "blocks" aren't really about "stopping" an attack - they are about deflecting an attack and setting you up in a better position. Simply stopping an attack is usually insufficient. Simply getting out of the way is also usually insufficient.

Quote:

I don't think it's possible to know how kata was meant to be interpreted in any reliable way, so to me it's more important that I have a good methodology for comprehending it that yields functional results and drills for training.




Sorry, I don't agree. Everything I've seen in the internal arts has primed me to see forms (xing) as encyclopaedia - instructional guides. The fact that certain moves are "larger" etc. usually has a purpose for training etc. I think most kata moves have a reason and understanding tenshin is crucial to this. Only occasionally do I find something that is not readily explicable - the sanseru application above for example. This could be for any one of the reasons I mentioned in my previous post.

The fact that the science of tenshin is largely not dealt with by karateka is, I feel, regrettable and is at odds with, say, the internal arts methodology where it is assumed (and is consistently applied/interpreted). I'm afraid I think that karate suffers from "knowledge attrition" to this extent. In other words, the fact that many (most?) karateka are not really consciously aware of what exactly they are doing in a defence/counter is a minus, not a plus.

Quote:

It's been my (admittedly limited) experience that when you have this people tend to coem up with similar, though individualized versions of kata applications, probably exactly as it should be.




I'd say people are coming up with the same kata applications because they have the same methodology. Some of this is an unconscious application of tenshin gained from experience/trial and error. On the other hand, I've seen the same application "mangled" by someone with poor footwork (taking an extra, unnecessary step, or putting your foot in the wrong place, moving a tad to the left instead of to the right, etc.). I believe the knowledge and understanding of bunkai is enhanced by examining tenshin (body evasion). I'd go so far as to say it is essential for a thorough examination and improvement of technique, much like a runner can examine his stride or a tennis player can examine his serve to find ways of improving performance. Karate is a science - not hit and miss.

Furthermore some bunkai is, IMHO, blatantly wrong in the sense that it is at odds with basic biomechanics/self-defence. A classic would be the use of an age uke in the shiko in sanseru. I hate to bore you with my blog again, but I don't want to repeat it all. Take a look at http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2008/04/sanseiru-kata-and-its-variations-part-2.html. Please tell me you don't do the application I'm talking about!

(As an aside, the practitioners depicted in the videos in my blog are all excellent karateka who I greatly esteem. One group do an excellent summary of sanseru bunkai - except for this one move which is, quite frankly, wrong IMV).

Quote:

And in fact Sanseiryu is probably my least favorite kata, and sorry to say I haven't given it much thought beyond the techniques it shares with Seisan, and maybe the last technique of the kata.




Maybe lots of people feel this way, hence the less than ideal bunkai. I've also noticed people modifying their kata to match their (mistaken views on) bunkai till you get a move vastly different from that in the "standard" kata of IOGKF, Jundokan, Goju kai etc.

Schools such as tou'on ryu perform the kata so differently you wonder whether we have any reliable idea of what the kata should look like. For example, tou'on ryu make sense of the leg catch by going right down to the ground and scooping at the ankle. I think this has "hairs" on it, but it does make some sense of the move.

My best guess is however that the move was probably meant to involve a step back.


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/27/08 05:54 AM)
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#395101 - 05/27/08 06:50 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
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Help a newbie, please? I'm enjoying listening in to you seniors, but am in the dark about the bunkai of most katas. I don't recall a leg catch in bunkai in Sanseru...is the bunkai broken out in detail somewhere...as a common point of reference?

(if it was, and I missed it, apologies...please point to the post?)

thank you

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#395102 - 05/27/08 06:55 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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I'd like to clarify one point:

I think it is commendable that a karateka unconsciously moves with the correct tenshin/blending etc. in applying a technique. But for teaching/coaching purposes one must, in my view, be able to analyse and understand why something works and what you have actually done.

I've seen many karateka performing admirably with the correct tenshin (whether this be a movement of the feet or simply twisting the torso etc.) in order to deflect an attack and set up a counter. Some of these karateka have come to this point by trial and error. A minority have studied the science and applied it.

In this respect karate is no different from boxing, tennis or even art - being "schooled" or "coached" is no guarantee of good performance. Some "naturals" get there without it. But being schooled sure helps.

I was first made aware of tenshin and its importance by Graham Ravey in 1988. He was then freshly returned from being Higaonna sensei's uchi deshi. Clearly these were things going through Higaonna's mind at that time (and since). I've see his students admirably applying this knowledge.

On the other hand Ravey sensei (now head of his own organisation, the TOGKF) called tenshin/taisabaki a "forgotten art" and often made reference to the fact that "much has been lost" in karate.

I agree with him and nothing has changed my view after all these years, hence my comment about "knowledge attrition".

The problem is that karate comes with a "train, don't ask" culture...
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#395103 - 05/27/08 06:57 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: harlan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

Help a newbie, please? I'm enjoying listening in to you seniors, but am in the dark about the bunkai of most katas. I don't recall a leg catch in bunkai in Sanseru...is the bunkai broken out in detail somewhere...as a common point of reference?

(if it was, and I missed it, apologies...please point to the post?)

thank you




After the 3 punches there is a breakout, sweeping the left hand along the right forearm.

In most schools the next move is a sukui (scoop) catching your opponent's leg...
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#395104 - 05/27/08 07:01 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
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Just to keep on topic. I think most techniques in drills in karate are made more effective by
The practice of hojo undo combined with modern weight training methods. Body conditioning is also done with the drills I practice.


Brians remark.
Quote:

I think jude does something more along the lines of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpdmNWPYPgE&feature=related



Incorrect.
Perhaps it is better to apply the trad teachings to a persons own methods of training.

I think this way

This is how goju ryu is meant to be trained and some other strains of karate.
Quote:


Traditional Okinawan Goju-Ryu places great emphasis on Hojo Undo or supplementary training for strengthening and hardening the body. The more common pieces of equipment are the Chishi, the Kongo Ken and Nigiri Game




One of the reasons for the use of strengthening and conditioning could be said to be

(1) keep injuries to the body to a minimum

(2) rehabilitation of existing injuries

(3) the strengthening of the tissue to reduce repeat injuries.


Quote from the judo log of Brian.
Quote:


2. I hate being injured.
3. I do love judo and competing.
4. I have always had questionable knees. My first knee injuries were in high school. They have troubled me from time to time ever since





So by that way of thinking troubled might indicate a minor injury.


Hojo undo strengthening the body ?

Part of goju ryu training yet it seems it hasn’t been applied or explored and taken further or even used for rehabilitation purposes? or even trained?

Could I ask if you post a training log for strength training on the forum?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/27/08 07:05 AM)

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#395105 - 05/27/08 07:10 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Maybe he's doing as you've asked Raul - he's shutting up




Not realy Dan. But my time is better spent on other things than having an argument with people who seem to want to apply karate competition methods to S/D situations.

Quote:

Jude - is this the drill you do (or something like it)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLG2YpNerYs






Dan.

I respect the time and effort you have put in to your studies.

To me the last drill you posted missed out a lot of the techniques/ principles found in that kata.


If you would like to discuss this issue further then you could pm me with your e mail address

Thanks

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/27/08 07:35 AM)

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#395106 - 05/27/08 08:03 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
harlan Offline
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Huh? Did I miss something? Why discuss techniques via PM?

Quote:

Dan.

I respect the time and effort you have put in to your studies.

To me the last drill you posted missed out a lot of the techniques/ principles found in that kata.


If you would like to discuss this issue further then you could pm me with your e mail address

Thanks

Jude



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#395107 - 05/27/08 08:20 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: harlan]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Huh? Did I miss something? Why discuss techniques via PM?






Because the guy is a teacher and had the confidence to post his findings. Certain other so called goju teachers who claim years in the study wont post their findings, and even have the gall to critiscise the work of a demonstration drill from a high ranking 10 th dan Okinawan goju ryu stylist when to me they clearly dont even know

A the content and use of a basic kata
B the intention of a high ranking trad goju ryu teacher
or how he teaches.

If Dan wishes to discuss the kata then fine.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/27/08 08:26 AM)

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#395108 - 05/27/08 08:24 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

Just to keep on topic. I think most techniques in drills in karate are made more effective by
The practice of hojo undo combined with modern weight training methods. Body conditioning is also done with the drills I practice.




Thanks for the clarification Jude. It seems to me that your approach is more "conditioning", less "technique" focused. By the latter, I mean that you would prefer to focus on conditioning your body than grooving patterns of movement.

In boxing terms I think you would be more a "slugger", less a "boxer".

Quote:

Perhaps it is better to apply the trad teachings to a persons own methods of training.

I think this way

This is how goju ryu is meant to be trained and some other strains of karate.




I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. You seem to be stating the obvious - traditional training should be applied to your own training. Who here doesn't do that?




Quote:

One of the reasons for the use of strengthening and conditioning could be said to be

(1) keep injuries to the body to a minimum

(2) rehabilitation of existing injuries

(3) the strengthening of the tissue to reduce repeat injuries.





Who would disagree? Unless you are, again, emphasising your preference for conditioning training over technique...

Quote:

Hojo undo strengthening the body ?

Part of goju ryu training yet it seems it hasn’t been applied or explored and taken further or even used for rehabilitation purposes? or even trained?

Could I ask if you post a training log for strength training on the forum?




Again - not sure what you are getting at. Presumably you are lamenting the lack of conditioning training in many goju schools. Is this what you assumed from my embu? If so, I wonder what made you think we don't focus on conditioning (the traditional variety) as well as technical drills? Is it because you think we don't have the time? You'd be wrong. I've worked with chishi, ishi sashi, ude tanren etc. since I started training.

I don't find your approach objectionable Jude - there is room for arguing that most of fighter's ability comes from conditioning. Many karateka have appalling condition compared to, say, a boxer. Joe Lewis made this observation in the 70s. I've had this discussion with a scathing boxer a few years ago. The fact that he was a semi-pro and was comparing himself to an office worker who does a bit of karate in amongst a big workload and family obligations seemed unfair, to say the least. People have different priorities.

I might say that your posts (intentionally or unintentionally) come across as similarly scathing - even contemptuous. Your original post that motivated my brother, then me, to post here expressed the view, in bold, "I would not train with these guys".

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but one could be forgiven for assuming that the bold type-face indicates a warning:

Quote:

"I would not train with these guys and nor should you".




Why? Presumably because we are "nancy boys" who do something akin to a dance, not a real, tough, martial art.

As I said, I'm going to assume that this is not what you meant - but I'm not sure others would, so I'll have to defend our approach. In the meantime I would advise you to be more careful about how you frame your replies. You complained recently of "personal" responses, yet you don't seem to realise that "I wouldn't train with these guys" would be seen by most as a highly personal attack.

Just to be clear, I've spent many years on hard conditioning. However, I've invested a lot of time in technical training and development. Why? You're only young for a short time. In my case I have an inherited auto-immune disease of the bowel and joints. My body isn't what it used to be. I have to train smarter, not harder.

There is, somewhere on Youtube, a video of me punching telephone books with a particular drill (actually a conditioning drill when used with a partner - that is also on the net as a "tanren" although you might not see the connection). What most people might not be aware of is that this was my third or fourth training back after a lengthy period of hospitalisation where I lost 20 kg (I spent almost a year in and out of hospital and had about 7 colon surgeries). The video was filmed without any prep - I'm not one for "waiting till I reach my peak before showing what I do".

I could then, and can now, punch harder than I did when I was 20. I can apply bunkai better in sparring. I stress that I am not saying I am a good fighter/martial artist. I'm probably just an average Joe, truth be told.

But I'm a better Joe than I was when I was a young and far more conditioned. This is because of emphasis on technique" - on smart training.

Conditioning is important. But if you stress this at the expense of technical "softer" drills that groove subconscious responses (and I'm not sure if this is what you're saying, but your posts strongly indicate this), let me ask you this: what will you rely on when you are old, frail or (God forbid) ill?

I'm happy to move into the internal arts more and more. Even xingyi and bagua are hard on my body. So its more taiji for me, less of my beloved goju. But if you, or anyone else, thinks I'm just gonna be "dancing" from here on, you're dead wrong.

"Soft" doesn't equal "woosy".
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#395109 - 05/27/08 08:31 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
jude33 Offline
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Slow down Dan.

I said I wouldnt train with those guys because of the direction you are taking. The direction I am taking is more of the Chinese infleunce on karate with the Okinawan input.



Your assuming far to much in a negative sense. You seem to be using other peoples comments as they were mine.

If you want to discuss the techniques in the kata then fine
If you would rather not then thats fine to.

Regards that your thinking Im some kind of slugger, interesting.

Conditioning is important. But if you stress this at the expense of technical "softer" drills that groove subconscious responses (and I'm not sure if this is what you're saying, but your posts strongly indicate this), let me ask you this: what will you rely on when you are old, frail or (God forbid) ill?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/27/08 08:45 AM)

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#395110 - 05/27/08 08:36 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I must have missed this. Could you please point to the post containing the demo referenced?

thank you

Quote:

Certain other so called goju teachers who claim years in the study wont post their findings, and even have the gall to critiscise the work of a demonstration drill from a high ranking 10 th dan Okinawan goju ryu stylist when to me they clearly dont even know




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#395111 - 05/27/08 08:45 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Shonuff Offline
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Dan,

I think what Brian is referring to is kata application clearly being applied in free fighting. It is the holy grail of Kata application scholars. There are hundreds of videos of controlled 1-step bunkai application drills, but all the sparring/fighting clips show the punch slapping kick boxing you mentioned before. It is usually explained by folks that kihon isn't meant to be applied as shown in kata etc and that kick boxing is kata application in action, or something similar.

Regarding reversal of techniques I think you should definately start a new thread as you suggested. I will say that I am a believer in the notion that techniques were purposefully obscured to make it harder for outsiders to pick up the art from observation.

There's plenty of anecdotal evidence to support this, I even have a book where Dr Yang Jwing Ming reverses tai chi movements to find their applications. I look forward to discussing this in more detail though.
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#395112 - 05/27/08 08:56 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
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Posts: 1539
Can I suggest you slow down Dan.

I said I wouldnt train with those guys because of the direction you are taking. The direction I am taking is more of the Chinese infleunce on karate with the Okinawan input.



Your assuming far to much in a negative sense. You seem to be using other peoples comments as they were mine.

If you want to discuss the techniques in the kata then fine
If you would rather not then thats fine to.

Regards that your thinking Im some kind of slugger, interesting.




Conditioning is important. But if you stress this at the expense of technical "softer" drills that groove subconscious responses




Not the case. I think both should have equal importance.
But to miss out one which seems to be happening to some strains of training then that isnt to good
Quote:



(and I'm not sure if this is what you're saying, but your posts strongly indicate this), let me ask you this: what will you rely on when you are old, frail





How old is old? App between 72 and 78 years of age and still performing like an atheletic 24 year old? With conditioning that most couldnt endure?

54 years old and immensly fast and totaly capable?

Teachings of trad karate.
Health and S/D in to an old age.

Quote:



or (God forbid) ill?






ill?

Try to avoid being ill but what could anybody do if they are to ill?

Jude

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#395113 - 05/27/08 09:08 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Shonuff]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Quote:

Dan,

I think what Brian is referring to is kata application clearly being applied in free fighting. It is the holy grail of Kata application scholars. There are hundreds of videos of controlled 1-step bunkai application drills, but all the sparring/fighting clips show the punch slapping kick boxing you mentioned before. It is usually explained by folks that kihon isn't meant to be applied as shown in kata etc and that kick boxing is kata application in action, or something similar.




Ahh - I misunderstood. Sorry Brian.

I have very little video of free-sparring. What little I put on has a few examples (Nenad actually does the shisochin palm strike in one - obviously it doesn't contact hard, which it would have to do to have the desired effect of the bunkai and stop the "flow" of your opponent).

Stand-up fighting is hard to apply properly without hitting full power (unlike Judo or grappling). I don't know anyone who would disagree.

Nor do I claim to apply bunkai "cleanly" - I get a bit in here, a bit in there. Sorry - I'm not good enough yet to show the "holy grail"... I'm just trying to get there like the rest of you. I don't say I have the ideal - I'm just defending my approach to pre-arranged sparring on this thread. And I happen to feel that what little I have posted of free-sparring reflects this rather than the "boxing" type karate/tkd you often see (complete with bouncing up and down - one of my pet hates).

Take a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tL9rGeKZGU.


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/27/08 09:39 AM)
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#395114 - 05/27/08 09:15 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Oh I'm not assuming negative things Jude.

I'm telling you that your posts can be construed that way - although I said I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Look back at your original post and note the lack of qualification to your comment. I accept that you didn't mean anything negative. My point is, would other people understand this from your comments? Many wouldn't, so I have to defend my approach nonetheless...

If you don't think you're going to slow down a bit with age, you're dead wrong. And I'm still going despite Crohns disease when most people I know in the same boat have given up. So what can you do about illness? Modify your training...

I'm interested in discussing further your drills.

As I said, I am pointing out how your comments are capable of being read - I'm not assuming some kind of malice on your part. Written words can fail to convey the emotional intent - and people here seem offended by your words (whether they have interpreted you rightly or wrongly is another story).
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#395115 - 05/27/08 09:52 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:


If you don't think you're going to slow down a bit with age, you're dead wrong.
And I'm still going despite Crohns disease when most people I know in the same boat have given up



I give my respect for that.
I am not a medical practioner but to the best of my knowledge people with the disease still weight train.
Quote:


. So what can you do about illness? Modify your training...



All due respect modified training could still have all the elements required. With in reason.
For trad karate training.
Quote:


I'm interested in discussing further your drills.




Ok

If you pm me with an email address that would be fine.

Jude

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#395116 - 05/27/08 10:12 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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The shisochin application (palm strike, kick deflection) I was referring to occurs at around 0:27 of the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tL9rGeKZGU.
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#395117 - 05/27/08 10:24 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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I still weight train Jude - when I can.

But I don't rely on my "youthful vigour" in my martial arts. My training/fighting involves more emphasis on technique, less on strength.

My conditioning is now more health oriented, less strength-for-fighting oriented.

It is an internal approach - not an external one. You've already indicated that you don't share my interest in Chinese influence. My Chinese influence is principally from the internal/soft arts of xingyiquan, baguazhang and taijiquan. I believe the older one gets, the more one should move to "softer" arts. But I know this isn't everyone's view.

You strike me as a "dyed in the wool" external artist - and that is fine. Neither is better nor worse. But I have my reasons for moving into the internal arts and changing my goju accordingly, and that is my sincerely held belief that "pure" external/hard technique (if there is such a thing) only gets you so far, then you peak and go downhill, where a gradual move to "softer" arts lets you continue to improve into your older age despite the failing body.

Chen Pan-Ling said that the goal of every external artist was to become "softer", while the goal of every internal artist was to become "harder". It is my view that every effective martial artist ends up in the middle - a balance of go and ju.

Do you need the internal Chinese arts to get there? Arguably not. This is my chosen method, however it must be seen in the context of almost 3 decades of goju training anyway - and in the context of my illness. Goju can become "softer" as many of the great masters have amply demonstrated.

I have a suspicion that you are not without "soft" techniques yourself and that very likely we are talking semantics.
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#395118 - 05/27/08 11:06 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:





You strike me as a "dyed in the wool" external artist - and that is fine. Neither is better nor worse. But I have my reasons for moving into the internal arts and changing my goju accordingly, and that is my sincerely held belief that "pure" external/hard technique (if there is such a thing) only gets you so far, then you peak and go downhill, where a gradual move to "softer" arts lets you continue to improve into your older age despite the failing body.

Chen Pan-Ling said that the goal of every external artist was to become "softer", while the goal of every internal artist was to become "harder". It is my view that every effective martial artist ends up in the middle - a balance of go and ju.

Do you need the internal Chinese arts to get there? Arguably not. This is my chosen method, however it must be seen in the context of almost 3 decades of goju training anyway - and in the context of my illness. Goju can become "softer" as many of the great masters have amply demonstrated.

I have a suspicion that you are not without "soft" techniques yourself and that very likely we are talking semantics.




Getting there with the softer techniques.
Also I was trying to work out an uechi ryu kata that is said to be purely based on the internal arts but the practioner is 70 plus and also has a very external extreme conditioning art basis. But that was purely observational.
Still working on that one and asking questions.

The video of sparring you posted. Was that restricted to certain techniques? I know it was relaxed sparring but my brain was seeing openings for

redirecting limbs, grab/ joint /strikes/attacks,
trapping and strikes
pure strikes
redirect the limbs and strike,
sweeps,
takedowns,
kicks to the inside/ outside thighs/ shins/ stomping on toes. Kicks to the groin.
drop knees and pin to downed opponents plus all kinds of things.
Pulling/ redirecting the person off the centre line centre and off balance.
All kinds of techniques.
All done in a relaxed fashion and no injury to the uke.
Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/27/08 11:13 AM)

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#395119 - 05/27/08 11:13 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: harlan]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

I must have missed this. Could you please point to the post containing the demo referenced?

thank you

Quote:

Certain other so called goju teachers who claim years in the study wont post their findings, and even have the gall to critiscise the work of a demonstration drill from a high ranking 10 th dan Okinawan goju ryu stylist when to me they clearly dont even know








I think he's trying to refer to me, only I didn't criticize anyone's drills, I brought up Taira sensei's drills and other people on the forums objections to them in a previous post, not my own. He doesn't like me because i've put him on the spot and asked him to actually explain his background in Goju, which apparently morphs daily. This is classic Jude33, makes some confusing unqualified statements then go hide for a while, then come back and do it again.

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#395120 - 05/27/08 11:17 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Oh...thank you for the clarification. I can see one not wanting to cite one's teachers (if they are living and it's private practice....I don't for that reason anyway). But since everyone in goju generally gets to the point of knowing the 'strains'/lines...it certainly helps to reference that at least???

Then again...get 10 goju guys in a room to show bunkai...and guaranteed 9 of them are wrong.

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#395121 - 05/27/08 11:22 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


Maybe lots of people feel this way, hence the less than ideal bunkai. I've also noticed people modifying their kata to match their (mistaken views on) bunkai till you get a move vastly different from that in the "standard" kata of IOGKF, Jundokan, Goju kai etc.





No, if I wanted to learn more for Sanseiryu I could, I just find it out of my range of practice right now to focus on the kata. I actually have seen a very good application for this technique in particular in Sanseiryu, I don't know how to call it other than to say it's interpeted sometimes as a type of takedown you see commonly in Goju kata, with a little variation from the standard.

Sorry to sound obnoxious here, but as you know who I train with, I am very comfortable which almost everything i've been shown in terms of bunkai. While I definitely appreciate your alternative view, I doubt we are gonna convince one another of the other's viewpoints on this subject exactly.

I will take a look at the article later, what little I glanced at looked interesting


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/27/08 11:27 AM)

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#395122 - 05/27/08 11:22 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539

Zack. Polite request.
How about you get off my case in a personal manner?. Have you heard of PM?
My back ground in goju or indeed in karate is my affair.
If it is something to do with the topic or something I wrote technical then fine. Comment away.
If you would like to prove something then as I said lets hear it about the kata content other wise stay away from the personal stuff.

Thanks

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#395123 - 05/27/08 11:25 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


Zack. Polite request.
How about you get off my case in a personal manner?. Have you heard of PM?
My back ground in goju or indeed in karate is my affair.
If it is something to do with the topic or something I wrote technical then fine. Comment away.
If you would like to prove something then as I said lets hear it about the kata content other wise stay away from the personal stuff.

Thanks




Sure, how about you do the same and stop making vague allusions to me and other people in all your posts? Not fair to come crying when you seem to be guilty of the same thing.

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#395124 - 05/27/08 11:29 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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No restrictions Jude - but every student and every bout is different, depending also on the day, purpose etc. That's just a small selection from years ago. Sweeps are common, but when I was asked to cobble together that sparring video recently I couldn't find any decent sweeps on video for dojo sparring.
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#395125 - 05/27/08 11:35 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
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Quote:


Sure, how about you do the same and stop making vague allusions to me and other people in all your posts? Not fair to come crying when you seem to be guilty of the same thing.





Question on reality and the application of martial arts in S/D seem to be unanswerd by your self . After all this is a martial arts forum and the application of martial arts to a S/D scenario might be expected from a martial arts teacher?
So perhaps you could give the input into the training from a martial artist in to s/d scenarios in the future?
Rather than what qualifies me to make a statement?
Quote:


I think he's trying to refer to me,




Assumptions? Interesting!!

Could we try to keep on topic?


Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/27/08 11:48 AM)

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#395126 - 05/27/08 12:06 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
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Quote:

I actually have seen a very good application for this technique in particular in Sanseiryu, I don't know how to call it other than to say it's interpeted sometimes as a type of takedown you see commonly in Goju kata, with a little variation from the standard.

Sorry to sound obnoxious here, but as you know who I train with, I am very comfortable which almost everything i've been shown in terms of bunkai. While I definitely appreciate your alternative view, I doubt we are gonna convince one another of the other's viewpoints on this subject exactly.

I will take a look at the article later, what little I glanced at looked interesting




Nothing obnoxious in your response Zach - it is an appropriate answer and we should all feel free to disagree. Your own confidence in your training methods is admirable and seems well thought through. This is a debate (and a friendly one) not kumite!

I'd love to see the application - I also do it as a take-down, so I suspect we're thinking of the same thing.

I feel free to disagree on a technical matter with some people I highly esteem - it doesn't mean I want to discount the value of their martial art in general. We're arguing a minor technicality and I find it odd when I'm confronted with anger by some people (no one here) "for daring to question x or y" - as if I'm somehow questioning everything else x or y does and not just a particular point.

I am a very analytical person and trained as a lawyer to boot, so I don't mind the cut and thrust of debate... If master x or y takes exception to my sincere attempts at analysis I'm afraid that's their problem. I don't take it personally if someone disagrees with me on a technical point - so long as they have an argument. I hate people disagreeing for the sake of it. I want them to convince me! My views are all susceptible to persuasion. What's the point of discussing things otherwise? I can write in a blog if I just want to rant and rave (which I do anyway!).
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#395127 - 05/27/08 01:24 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

No restrictions Jude - but every student and every bout is different, depending also on the day, purpose etc. That's just a small selection from years ago. Sweeps are common, but when I was asked to cobble together that sparring video recently I couldn't find any decent sweeps on video for dojo sparring.




Ok

Jude

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#395128 - 05/27/08 01:49 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: harlan]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Help a newbie, please? I'm enjoying listening in to you seniors, but am in the dark about the bunkai of most katas. I don't recall a leg catch in bunkai in Sanseru...is the bunkai broken out in detail somewhere...as a common point of reference?

(if it was, and I missed it, apologies...please point to the post?)

thank you




That is a problem harlan. Most karateka can't agree how a kata is performed much less what the bunkai is supposed to be.
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#395129 - 05/27/08 01:54 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Quote:

Part of goju ryu training yet it seems it hasn’t been applied or explored and taken further or even used for rehabilitation purposes? or even trained?

Could I ask if you post a training log for strength training on the forum?

Jude




Yeah, that's it jude. I didn't do my hojo undo correctly. And because of my inadequate karate training I have knee injuries. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that I grew 8inches in height in high school.

Now stay on topic and leave me alone, joood.
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#395130 - 05/27/08 01:55 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: BrianS]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
I was learning bunkai for a kata last week, and asked, 'Is this the standard interpretation?'

'Heck NO!' was the reply.

I ass-u-me that there are various interpretations, based on the principles being applied/worked through. I think I once read that folks needed at least 3 levels of interpretation of bunkai for upper level ranks. So...was just looking for one version that all might be discussing...a common reference point.

thanks anyway.

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#395131 - 05/27/08 01:59 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:


Zack. Polite request.
How about you get off my case in a personal manner?. Have you heard of PM?
My back ground in goju or indeed in karate is my affair.
If it is something to do with the topic or something I wrote technical then fine. Comment away.
If you would like to prove something then as I said lets hear it about the kata content other wise stay away from the personal stuff.

Thanks




YOU are asking for people to get off your caseand stay on topic? LMFAO!!!

Dan,

I've seen your video's on youtube,but no bunkai without passivity. IMO the short frame you posted earlier was very passive because both knew exactly what to do.

It is my opinion that the bunkai I know cannot be done against full resistance without serious injury to the uke.

BTW, I likw your website and your work. Thanks for your contributions to karate.
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#395132 - 05/27/08 02:00 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: harlan]
BrianS Offline
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Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
I see.
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#395133 - 05/27/08 02:52 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:




YOU are asking for people to get off your caseand stay on topic? LMFAO!!!






Seems that way. What does as you have stated in capital letters above stand for Brian?
Any chance of spelling the wording as to what you mean?

Thanks



Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/27/08 02:54 PM)

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#395134 - 05/27/08 03:58 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
are you ever going to get around to answering any of the question you've been asked? like what drills you practice based on the kata? you seem to have all kinds of ways to defeat dan's students based on your observations on the kumite he posted. how is any one getting on your case here by the way? your asking every one questions, and you never answer when your asked them back?

im only asking because you respond to zach even though you said you had both him and myself on ignore, and you seem to respond to zach, but not me?

so please, don't respond to my posts unless you plan to answer what drills you practice (seems you have opinions on all of them, weather or not, and how you spar (you seem to comment on the "weakness" and "openings" found in other's kumite).

failure to respond to the questions asked, AND ONLY THE QUESTIONS ASKED, means you are in fact a douche bag, or i'm still on your ignore list. either or will be acceptable.

and while your at it, fill out some more of your bio please, other than the anime...i mean martial arts you practice.
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#395135 - 05/27/08 04:22 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

The shisochin application (palm strike, kick deflection) I was referring to occurs at around 0:27 of the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tL9rGeKZGU.




Dan, I have one question. Now, first off I understand why people don't use contact with no gear (however, light contact to the head with open hand strikes and medium contact to the body will give a more real feel of the techniques IMO). But why no contact with the gear? I thought the full gear was so that you CAN go full contact and see just how effective your techniques really are.
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#395136 - 05/27/08 04:44 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

of martial arts in S/D seem to be unanswerd by your self . After all this is a martial arts forum and the application of martial arts to a S/D scenario might be expected from a martial arts teacher?
So perhaps you could give the input into the training from a martial artist in to s/d scenarios in the future?
Rather than what qualifies me to make a statement?





I've done my best to answer every question anyone has put to me, and I feel I've actually participated in the conversation, unlike you.

if you feel that people demanding you qualify your statements is some kind of personal attack that's too bad Jude, complain to a mod or something and maybe they'll reprimand me.

Personally I think you're getting treated exactly as you deserve. I've watched you do this kind of silly crap the entire time i've used this forum with no repercussions and I don't feel a bit bad about pointing it out.

Again if you don't like it here's what you can do:

1) Be honest about your background and stopping adding new arts you train in every time we discuss them. Being secretive about what you do on forums is a big red flag to alot of people.

2) Post some stuff that makes sense and isn't just arguing for arguing's sake and lame trolling attempts.

I'm not gonna take you seriously (i'm guessing i'm not alone here) until you start actually communicating differently.


Dan: After looking at the first page of your blog it looks like we have a similar view on the Sanseiryu technique. I have also learned a "hands free" version of the takedown.

And by that of course I mean a no touch knockout from across the room. Just joking. I mean have learned a version where you don't grab the leg.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/27/08 05:05 PM)

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#395137 - 05/27/08 07:10 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: medulanet]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
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Loc: Australia
They were trying to contact Marcel (probably not very hard) but they were evenly matched and were friends asked to do this at the last minute as a demonstration.

In any event, our contact with this gear still light - I could punch through that protective gear easily.

Given the deficiencies in the gear, I've not used it much over the years.


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/27/08 07:15 PM)
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#395138 - 05/27/08 09:43 PM Re: Kata Embu [Re: harlan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
Harlan

The "leg catch" I was talking about is at about 7:38 in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGBdkOYQGoE.
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#395139 - 05/28/08 06:47 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

[

I've done my best to answer every question anyone has put to me, and I feel I've actually participated in the conversation, unlike you.




There are some you didint such as the S/D on MMA.

You completly avoided that one.

Either way have a good day.

Jude

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#395140 - 05/28/08 06:54 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
harlan Offline
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Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Sorry...was there a typo? Did you mean 7:38? He is doing kata alone at that point. Or was it around 2:38..Saifa bunkai?

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#395141 - 05/28/08 07:12 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: harlan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
Posts: 844
Loc: Australia
I meant the kata move which is a leg catch, so yes - sanseru at about 7:38 is the move. It is a leg catch but the kata has a step forward...

Note however this video at about 0:48 which shows the application. Note the step back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoXQbRCZNmQ.

What say you? Similar moves in CMA have a step back in the form. Consider this move which is a block but can be converted into a leg catch at 0:26:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDaHVXzmccE.


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/28/08 07:34 AM)
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#395142 - 05/28/08 08:55 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
harlan Offline
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Posts: 6664
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Okay. Thank you for the clarification.

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#395143 - 05/28/08 09:34 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: dandjurdjevic]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
FWIW we have a very similar-looking leg catch/trap in the Shotokan version of Wankan followed by stepping forward with open vertical knife hand/pushing palm and punch.

B.

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#395144 - 05/28/08 10:09 AM Re: Kata Embu [Re: harlan]
dandjurdjevic Offline
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Registered: 05/10/08
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Quote:

Okay. Thank you for the clarification.




Shonuff, harlan, Zach etc. - I've started a new thread on the subject of "reversing" embusen: see http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...e3#Post16001536.

Please give your 2 cents...

I am quite intrigued by the example I've given and I don't know if I'm ready to assume that the "kata is wrong"...


Edited by dandjurdjevic (05/28/08 10:12 AM)
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