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#394611 - 05/12/08 10:43 AM Re: seeking info [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Just look at the "Students" section and it shows the "Masters" of Okinawan Te. It lists the bad guy from the karate kid, Jim Kelly and Bob Wall from enter the dragon, Joe Lewis, and maybe a few others. What the eff?
_________________________
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#394612 - 05/12/08 10:52 AM Re: seeking info [Re: medulanet]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA

Its always a bad sign when people start listing folks that we not direct students of the people teaching.

Sometimes they list everyone that trained with the teachers teacher--or everyone that trained in the same relative art.

But if they have no direct connection to the person/school in question....it alwats "reads" like someone tradining on the "rep" of others.

Might not be the case at all---just how people can sometimes preceive it.
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#394613 - 05/12/08 12:09 PM Re: seeking info [Re: two_snakes]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Looks to be a newish style created by the improbably-named Master Dover Sole, masquerading as an old one, corny fake history, one-armed fighters and all:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4096&page=6


"Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthulhu
Gordon Doversola, the system founder is one. Mike Pecina is another. A ways back, a guy named Hanrahan broke off and formed a system called Wa-te Ryu, which is just Okinawa-te with a different name, really. The curriculum is just a wee bit different, and he's given Japanese names to the kata. Also, he's instituted dan rankings, which Okinawa-te does not have. Still, the essentials are basically Okinawa-te. I don't know of anyone else trying to get power in the organization, nor do I particularly care. When things get too political, I tend to shy away. Not my bag.

Cthulhu

Hi Cthulhu. I was referred to this site by a friend, and imagine my surprise to see my name in print regarding political power struggles and B.S. in Okinawa-Te. To set the record straight, I left Master Doversola's organization in 1981 in order to preserve the integrity of my dojo, protect my students from being taken advantage of financially, and to get away from what was beginning to happen to Okinawa-Te. I did not ever attempt to abuse my relationship with Master Doversola or make any claim or attempt to gain power in his association. Also, I did not start my own system, I created my own association, approximately 6 years after leaving Okinawa-Te, and did not change any of what I had been taught. It's interesting to me that, over the years, so much has been flaunted about regarding the reasons why I left Okinawa-Te. But, now that I've seen it in print, I thought it time to speak out about it. My association, Wa-Te Ryu, is not just based on the principles of Okinawa-Te, it IS the principles of Okinawa-Te, as taught to me by Master Doversola while I was his personal student for 12 years, and also as taught to me during that same period by my Seniors, Larry DeLano, Mark Galvin, Geoff Ewertz and Mike Lee, all wonderful teachers in their own right. I did not involve any of them in my departure from Okinawa-Te. What happened was between me and Master Doversola, and shall remain so. When I left his organization (and I was not the first to leave) I felt it would be improper for me to use his name or the name of his system. Certain people have come to me over the years and have asked me to return and help fix the problems that remain. My response has always been that the system of Okinawa-Te (named by Master Doversola) is his system and only he has the right to change or alter things as they are. A question arose as to the development of degrees after leaving his organization. The truth is that Master Doversola referred to himself as a 9th degree black belt as early as 1969 (and perhaps earlier), and that he promoted students to black belt level with degree designations. He was and is the Master of his system (yes, his, he created it). and if you have any further questions you should talk to him about it. We began the process of giving the Katas Japanese names prior to my leaving, and I continued the practice afterward. You should know that the names were not changed, they were just interpreted in Japanese. It would be the same as saying eat in English, essen in German, or manga in Italian. To eat is to eat in any language. When I left there were no "contenders" for the throne, just some unhappy members. If there are any "contenders" now, please know that I am not, nor have I ever been one. My name is John Hanrahan. If you have any questions, please let me know."

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#394614 - 05/13/08 12:35 AM Re: seeking info [Re: medulanet]
two_snakes Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 4
Madulanet where did you see it saying Masters if OTK as the .co.nz website states they were simply practitioners of OTK and had trained under Shihan Doversola?? Which would be more in line with what you are saying....

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#394615 - 05/13/08 04:10 AM Re: seeking info [Re: two_snakes]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
You are right I mistakenly quoted it as saying masters when it did say practitioners.
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#394616 - 08/19/08 11:33 AM Re: seeking info [Re: two_snakes]
martyjenkins Offline
Stranger

Registered: 08/19/08
Posts: 1
Hi my name is Martin Jenkins and I trained in Okinawa Te New Zealand. I have been graded Sho dan and later graded Ni Dan by Sensei M Lee. I left the Okinawa Te Oranisation as I value my honest and can not train under dishonest instructors. I will say that Richard Triplett is a great fighter and a nice guy. I have met him and sparred with him, amazing guy.I can tell you that Mr Doversola although being a good fighter in his time and training greats like Jim Kelly and Joe Lewis told his top students that the history of Okinawa Te is a lie. It is unknown where he studied and he made the names up from place names. another writer said that Mark Bishope talks about Okninawa Te in his book. I can assure you that the style is not mentioned in the book. Okinawa Te is the word for all the styles Nahe Te i think. Also the branch in New Zealand is run by Jeon Flavell . He is not really good and paid alot of money to be a 5 Dan or what ever he is now.He was my under me when I trained. His Jeon's mother runs the club. Mother runs I myself do boxing and kicking boxing now. I started at Okinawa Te we I was 12 years old. Is ok if you get the right teacher . Richard Triplett is great. Mr Doversola likes money does not teach traditonal forms. (kata) he makes it up then changes them because he forgets. If you wish to have any more information please contact me. Yes I can prove what I say.

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#394617 - 11/16/08 08:36 PM Re: seeking info [Re: medulanet]
MarkG Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 3
The 'eff' is simply: those are people (and more) who have actually trained with Gordon Doversola in the Okinawa-te Organization.

Have a nice day.

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#394618 - 11/16/08 08:49 PM Re: seeking info [Re: cxt]
MarkG Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 3
Quote:


Its always a bad sign when people start listing folks that we not direct students of the people teaching...




Why would you automatically assume these people didn't train in the Okinawa-te Organization?

Quote:

Sometimes they list everyone that trained with the teachers teacher...

...Might not be the case at all---just how people can sometimes preceive it.




No, that is not the case at all...in this case.

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#394619 - 11/21/08 07:53 PM Re: seeking info [Re: MarkG]
reaperblack Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/30/04
Posts: 558
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
Okinawan Te was how Shorin ryu was commonly referred to before its renaming in the early 20th century (Ankoh Itosu I believe) Most commonly by the Japanese as a way to distinguish it from mainland arts.
I would seriously question the lineage and would probably call b.s.
Its also worth noting that all the head instructors accolades are pretty vague.

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#394620 - 11/22/08 11:18 AM Re: seeking info [Re: reaperblack]
MarkG Offline
Stranger

Registered: 02/14/06
Posts: 3
Quote:

Okinawan Te was how Shorin ryu was commonly referred to before its renaming in the early 20th century (Ankoh Itosu I believe) Most commonly by the Japanese as a way to distinguish it from mainland arts.




The historical Okinawa Te is absolutely the real thing - when they aren't fighting amongst themselves. The Okinawa-te referred to in this thread is a historical metaphor meant to imply a bridge between modern Karate and Gung Fu. The system was started circa 1957 by Gordon A. Doversola in Los Angles when no one ever heard of Shorin Ryu much less Tae Kwon Do. The only other people teaching Eastern based martial arts in Los Angeles in this time frame were E. Parker and T. Oshima. Doversola and Parker have some common roots in Hawaii with Doversola having the upper hand (in my opinion) due to his exposure to Gung Fu, Judo, Danzan Ryu, Kendo, Kenpo, Kajukempo, Boxing, and the streets of Honolulu where fighting was considered a daily recreational activity.

My first exposure to anything connected with Shorin Ryu was thru Joe Lewis when he began training with Doversola circa 1966. As more Marines returned from Viet Nam, via Okinawa, Shorin Ryu became establish on this side of the pond.

The unfortunate, or fortunate depending on your point of view, naming of a martial art as Okinawa-te when there was a historical Okinawa Te was deemed necessary at the time (1957). During this time about the only reference material in print (the Internet wasn't even a dream) was 'Zen Combat' by Jay Gluck, and Gung Fu was unheard of much less taught to persons not of Chinese decent (this predates Ark Wong's teaching in LA). In his favor Doversola has, with typical Hawaiian character, publicly admitted he made up the history - and has dissuaded few from continuing to train with.

The purpose of this historical excursion is to provide a little factual evidence, as opposed to conjecture, when being critical of the lifelong endeavors of others. A mile walk in another's shoes can be enlightening.

Quote:

I would seriously question the lineage and would probably call b.s.




John Hanrahan pointed that out in the post 'Barad' lifted from Martial Talk - which postdates Doversola's admission that he fabricated the history.

Quote:

Its also worth noting that all the head instructors accolades are pretty vague.




Don't know where you are getting your information but the majority of 'head instructors' training with Doversola during the 'peak years' are all about retirement age. The exception being Rich Triplett whose tournament and semi- contact record is admirable in itself - if you are inclined to those activities.

Other than all that, have a nice day...

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