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#393763 - 05/01/08 08:26 PM DoBoks, Patches, and Federations
TKD_X Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
Recently i saw a dialogue that dealt with the use of a federation patch without belonging to that federation. one person claimed that it is misleading. the other claimed that as the curriculum is the same, the use of the patch is not misleading. those people will remain nameless unless they choose to continue the conversation here! i personally must agree with the second poster.

my federation is based on ITF forms. before the formation of our federation, our grandmaster belonged to the ATA (while it still practiced ITF forms). our grandmaster received his ninth degree black belt at the kukkiwon. now many years after he started a federtin of his own, we practice the ITF forms without the sine wave. we consider ourselves ITF.

i have a jacket style dobok with the ties (like the karate gi). that is the federation official uniform. i suspect this is an ATA influence(for more details go here http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...#Post15990743). but i also wear an adidas WTF-style pullover that unfortunately came with the WTF logo at the bottom of the v-neck. we don't wear any ITF patches.

i think the sort of argument that occurred in the other thread is a perfect example of the politics that drove our grandmaster to make his own federation. because we are essentially ITF, is it wrong to call ourselves ITF? if we do olympic style sparring every other friday, could we cal ourselves WTF? i think it is all a ridiculous bunch of semantics. it is all tae kwon do. isn't it? feel free to post however best fits your mood. flame away
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#393764 - 05/01/08 11:46 PM Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations [Re: TKD_X]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
You are confusing Federations with styles. ITF,WTF and ATA are all organizations and organizations are political. They have bylaws and constitutions. The styles are the art Chang Hon(ITF), Kukki(WTF) and Songham(ATA).

Now just because you practice the Chang Hon Pattern, does not mean you are practicing the Chang Hon style, sine wave is probably the thing that separates this style the most, they also are very precise in their foot and hand placements.

We too practice mostly the Chang Hon patterns, but we are not Chang Hon practioners, we do a subtler version of sine wave but not as it would be recognized by the ITF.

Independents commonly refer to the umbrella name of TKD, but die hard practioners from their respective orgs may not.

VDJ

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#393765 - 05/02/08 12:13 AM Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations [Re: VDJ]
TKD_X Offline
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Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
i think i understand you. the point i wanted to make is that it is silly to worry about emblems and logos and patches. if you follow the ITF syllabus, i would say to call yourself ITF. i agree with the umbrella name thing. i don't say i'm PATF or anything, just tae kwon do. looking back this could be construed as a "why can't we be friends?" post.
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#393766 - 05/02/08 12:33 AM Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations [Re: TKD_X]
TKD_X Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
did you see the conversation i was talking about? it's the kind that broadens the gap between tae kwon do styles. just petty arguments.
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#393767 - 05/02/08 06:44 AM Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations [Re: TKD_X]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
Quote:

i think i understand you. the point i wanted to make is that it is silly to worry about emblems and logos and patches. if you follow the ITF syllabus, i would say to call yourself ITF. i agree with the umbrella name thing. i don't say i'm PATF or anything, just tae kwon do. looking back this could be construed as a "why can't we be friends?" post.




No I did not see the thread you are refering to. But, are you sure you follow an ITF syllabus? You have already said you do not practice the sine wave so you have already admitted that you are not a real Chang Hon practioner. I agree that arguing over something as petty as a patch is silly, BUT you cannot claim to be something if you aren't actually practicing it the way that org has set it up to be taught. BTW, the ITF & ATA are far ahead of the WTF in actually having a syllabus, this I have seen up close and personal.

VDJ

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#393768 - 05/02/08 06:47 AM Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations [Re: VDJ]
VDJ Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/09/05
Posts: 1671
And for the most part, most places are welcoming of other practioners and are friendly, you always have a few "our way is better than your way" types, but I don't see it very often.

VDJ

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#393769 - 05/02/08 07:25 AM Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations [Re: TKD_X]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

i think i understand you. the point i wanted to make is that it is silly to worry about emblems and logos and patches. if you follow the ITF syllabus, i would say to call yourself ITF. i agree with the umbrella name thing. i don't say i'm PATF or anything, just tae kwon do. looking back this could be construed as a "why can't we be friends?" post.




I suppose an analogy would be wearing a country's flag on your regular clothes (or military uniform!) if you were neither a citizen nor a resident.

Some countries and people would see it as a show of respect for their country and culture, others would claim that you do not deserve to wear it.

There is no universally accepted answer. When I trained as a guest at a WTF school (sparring only) I bought their dobok and didn't wear anything but my belt and pads from my other style. I don't disagree with your right to do it, but for me the patches are an allegience to an organization and, as you say, you are not in that organization.

Within ATA we also have "school patches" optionally. One specific patch can only be used by schools whose instructors trained directly under the founder. Other schools are allowed to make their own patches using elements of it but cannot use the patch in its entirety.

Your GM should commission the design of a patch that reflects the ITF heritage without suggesting allegiance to the ITF political organization.
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#393770 - 05/02/08 07:52 AM Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations [Re: TKD_X]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
This is an interesting but confusing topic. I think it helps to define terms. Mant simply look at TKD as an umbrella term for Korean striking Arts. Many feel the name was just accepted to be distinguished from Karate & the hated Japanese. Others look at TKD as a specific Art developed by a military general & his officers & troops. While still others look at it as a martial sport, one that has even gained Olympic status.
Now the ITF & WTF are both martial art organizations. However, the WTF, besides its sports fighting rules, has no standardization of training. The ITF on the other hand, has specific sports rules & very highly standards with respect to syllabus. The KKW is the south Korean headquarters that overseas continued development & training of their version of TKD.
Now many simply say they are ITF, because they do the ChonJi or Chang Hon patterns. While I would not argue against that, as one is free to think what they wish, I feel that to say you are ITF, you MUST be a registered school or member, wear their official DoBok, followthe syllabus, not just the Tuls. compete in ITF tournaments with up to date rules, issue ITF BB certs etc etc.

Some say ITF is as style. Yes & no. It is an org, that has a set syllabus. The style could more correctly be called Chang Hon, the pen name of the founder.

So some practice a sport called TKD. Some practice Korean Karate & call it TKD. While some practice Chang Hon style & call it TKD.

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#393771 - 05/02/08 07:55 AM Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations [Re: TKD_X]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

i think the sort of argument that occurred in the other thread is a perfect example of the politics that drove our grandmaster to make his own federation. because we are essentially ITF, is it wrong to call ourselves ITF? if we do olympic style sparring every other friday, could we cal ourselves WTF? i think it is all a ridiculous bunch of semantics. it is all tae kwon do. isn't it? feel free to post however best fits your mood. flame away




As stated above, you are free to call yourself & training whatever you wish. I would categorize it as, you train in a form of Korean MA (or karate) with parts of various KMA added in. Which is fine by me. Good luck!

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#393772 - 05/02/08 07:59 AM Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations [Re: VDJ]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

But, are you sure you follow an ITF syllabus? You have already said you do not practice the sine wave so you have already admitted that you are not a real Chang Hon practioner.
BUT you cannot claim to be something if you aren't actually practicing it the way that org has set it up to be taught. VDJ




Yes I what say that they do some things the way the founder tuaght it at some point in the past. Nothing wrong with that, but I would not call it ITF, nor would I say they were Chang Hon practitioners either.

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