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#393403 - 04/29/08 11:47 AM MMA as Self-Defense?
Mastah Offline
Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 66
Loc: PA
I would like to hear others input
on this.

Of course it won't be practical against all
situations such as a gun or a knife, multiple attackers, ie alex gong
or lee murray.

Nonetheless do you think it would be sufficient
against a single aggressor/thug without a weapon
or buddies to help them.

Don't get me wrong the best defense is
using your head, but i find this to be a debatable
topic.

I just want to know what others think
of it being adequate against certain events.

Here is a gym where i live, unfortunately
until i get some better consistent cash flow
it will be hard to pay 75$/month.

hitstraining

Also anybody pay prices such as this for
their tma/mma training?

Thx.
_________________________
“Really great people make you feel that you, too, can become great.” - Mark Twain

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#393404 - 04/29/08 12:07 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: Mastah]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
$75/month is not bad. MMA is good for learning how to apply fighting techniques.
_________________________
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#393405 - 04/29/08 02:35 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: MattJ]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Where in Pa are you?

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#393406 - 04/29/08 02:38 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: Glockmeister]
Mastah Offline
Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 66
Loc: PA
Uniontown, don't get me wrong im not going
to go there just for SD, forget that, i hate being
bored so this would be great for me.


Edited by Mastah (04/29/08 02:42 PM)
_________________________
“Really great people make you feel that you, too, can become great.” - Mark Twain

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#393407 - 04/30/08 04:46 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: Mastah]
werewolf Offline
Member

Registered: 07/06/05
Posts: 29
Loc: northwest
It would work just fine. The only thing you have to really do is train outside the mma "box" every once in a while. A gym frequently trains their guys/girls for ring competitions with people who do the exact same thing. Switch it up, spar with friends, then it will be worth your while.
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#393408 - 04/30/08 05:02 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: Mastah]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I think it's like shooting a fly with a shotgun. MMA covers all there is to know about fighting except when not to fight and don't pile up on ground just because.

One of MMA greatest access is its fitness level you won't get that or maintain that in short terms. Along with there fitness is there tested and often use techniques that take much skill to use successfully.

Their approach of bring the fight to the opponent works well for TV and UFC rankings but they are not sound SD methods there are so many things you have to keep in mind on the street other then kicking the other guys a$$.

I think a good MMA with taught SD tactics would be a very good fighter on the street but these skills and fitness level are not easy to learn, attain or maintain.

Self defense can be successful without such extrem conditioning and skill level. Having some common knowledge of what a street fight is and technique to deter, counter and escape is better and easier to attain and maintain.

I know 60 year old men that are very effective street fighters because they know how and where to hurt you and don't care about fighting dirty. They didn't get old by being a fool or a push over.

My 2 cent.
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#393409 - 04/30/08 08:20 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: Neko456]
Mastah Offline
Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 66
Loc: PA
Hard to maintain huh? I'm guessing thats why pro
mmaists train 8 hrs a day?
_________________________
“Really great people make you feel that you, too, can become great.” - Mark Twain

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#393410 - 04/30/08 08:46 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: Mastah]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Hard to maintain huh? I'm guessing thats why pro
mmaists train 8 hrs a day?




I would like to know where they get the energy from.
But how long and to what age can they realisticly keep that up?

Jude

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#393411 - 04/30/08 09:01 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: Mastah]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I am talking about for the average Martial Artist that got a 8-5, family and trains for self defense rather then ring matches.

MMA is good stuff. 4-6 hours 4-5 times a week might keep ou up.
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#393412 - 04/30/08 09:42 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: Neko456]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I am talking about for the average Martial Artist that got a 8-5, family and trains for self defense rather then ring matches.

MMA is good stuff. 4-6 hours 4-5 times a week might keep ou up.




I aint got the energy for that. 4 hours?

Jude

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#393413 - 05/01/08 10:12 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: Neko456]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

I think it's like shooting a fly with a shotgun. MMA covers all there is to know about fighting except when not to fight




No. Just because in MMA you practice fighting, does not mean that MMAist are taught to fight everytime they might get in a self defence situation. I do MMA, I avoid going to likely places of violence, when faced with idiots, i walk away, I think i know when not to fight as do most other MMAist I know.

Quote:

One of MMA greatest access is its fitness level you won't get that or maintain that in short terms.




Are you saying you cannot greatly improve fitness in the short term? and cannot maintain fitness?

Quote:

Along with there fitness is there tested and often use techniques that take much skill to use successfully.




Techniques like a right cross, knees and elbows? The better you get at these the more successful you will be with them.
Don't really understand your wording. A skill is a technique applied yes? You do not need "much skill" to land a punch.

Quote:

Their approach of bring the fight to the opponent works well for TV and UFC rankings but they are not sound SD methods there are so many things you have to keep in mind on the street other then kicking the other guys a$$.




Another POV is their approach matches their environment. Can easily be changed from UFC approach to street.

Quote:

I think a good MMA with taught SD tactics would be a very good fighter on the street but these skills and fitness level are not easy to learn, attain or maintain.




Exchange MMA with karate, puncher, judo.....
Good things very many people who do mma also consider street tactics.
And yeah it's not easy.

Quote:

Self defense can be successful without such extrem conditioning and skill level. Having some common knowledge of what a street fight is and technique to deter, counter and escape is better and easier to attain and maintain.




It's not extreme, I prefer fun. Not every MMAist is of the same conditioning of silva, gsp or butterbean, but the training does tend to keep you fit. not a negative in my book.
For the majority of people a 'common knowledge' of self defence, minus any fighting skills will be enough to keep them safe.




I know 60 year old men that are very effective street fighters because they know how and where to hurt you and don't care about fighting dirty. They didn't get old by being a fool or a push over.

My 2 cent.




see above point. Age and fitness should not be an argument against the effectiveness of MMA for self defence. Foreman was boxing into his late 50's at the top level, randy C is mid 40's at the top level. There is not reason why one cant go one, being fit and active into their 60's and beyond.

From Mastahs first post, seems he is rather clued up on the realities of SD and MA training.
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#393414 - 05/01/08 02:02 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: creative]
matxtx Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
It depends on the MMA instructor or what the aim of that MMA gym is.
Where I train its MMA based drills and sparring for no holds barred fights.Anything goes.Its up to the individual to then go into the ring if he wants and not do this or do that because of rules.
Some gyms are purely for sports MMA so might stay with in the rules all the time.Even then it doesnt take much brains to see what would work in SD and what would not.

The best thing about MMA based training I think is the drills and the fact that nothing can get through that does not work against a live, resisting opponent and you can prove it yourself and see it proven in these drills and at high realistic intensitys yet stay relatively safe.If the instructor is good and theres trust in the gym of course.
The drills come out of Boxing, Thai Boxing and Submission wrestling,as far as I know, but can be tweeked for anything depending on your imagination.That includes knife work and multiple opponents.

With imagination drills can be created for ANYTHING.
We do multiple opponent drills,knife drills with a paper knife.In 5 minutes we can prove or not prove what will work.

Of course there is a whole self protection side that involves awareness and safety tactics and common people skills like not being an idiot etc.
But for the physical side MMA based drills and sparring are the best out there in my opinion.It took a while to see and if others see and good instructors get out there MMA as SD will grow I think.
_________________________
I point my saxaphone at the rare Booted Gorilla.

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#393415 - 05/01/08 02:22 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: matxtx]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
matxtx,

That was an excellent post. You're dead-on it. Particularly about the "trust' aspect in the gym. I personally think that is something not often mentioned, but a huge factor.

-John

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#393416 - 05/01/08 04:52 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: creative]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



You do not need "much skill" to land a punch.








That would be dependent on a few things. In the sense of controlled fighting there are plenty of vale tudo/ boxing bouts where the guys only land a few punches the whole bout.

Jude

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#393417 - 05/01/08 04:53 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: creative]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I was talking above the average guy that not 15-30 years old and the question before mines mentioned Pro level MMAer. MMA techniques practiced without the Pro level fitness would work but not as well as the dedicated Pro level practioner as is with any other disclipine.

creative wrote - Techniques like a right cross, knees and elbows? The better you get at these the more successful you will be with them. Don't really understand your wording. A skill is a technique applied yes? You do not need "much skill" to land a punch.


What I was talking about was logitics, defensive skills and the close range that you are taught to fight in. I agree its easy almost natural to punch someone out but it takes skill to learn to bob and weave & raise your guard countering through the onslaught/incoming. Or use your foot work to escape. Now we all know having a good punch and kick to the lower extrem can get U through most inital encounters, and a good offense can be a good defense but w/o training some of thats luck, skill takes time.


I'm not discounting fitness I'm saying that you don't need and its harder to aquire Pro level fitness if its not your job. Sure its wanted but so is cold water in hell, I'm just saying that its hard to attain. And not needed in self defense but surlly an Ace to your full house if you got it.

I'm generalizing in some my statement I apologize for that but I do think that there is a mental adjust from gym to street that has to be made.


Edited by Neko456 (05/01/08 04:54 PM)
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#393418 - 05/01/08 05:49 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
I was posting from a self defence perspective. obviously as the calibre of fighter you face increases, so will your level of skill will need to.
My point was really to say that a punch is about as basic a skill as there is in ANY MA. So to say MMA needs too much practice before its techniques are useful/applicable is IMO wrong.
Don't want to say it........a punch is a....cant do it...
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#393419 - 05/01/08 07:55 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: creative]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I was posting from a self defence perspective. obviously as the calibre of fighter you face increases, so will your level of skill will need to.
My point was really to say that a punch is about as basic a skill as there is in ANY MA. So to say MMA needs too much practice before its techniques are useful/applicable is IMO wrong.





Scratching my head somewhat.

To reach a high level of use in anything I think would take a lot of practice and repetition .

Regards some street fighters. S/D.
There are seasoned ones about.

Jude

Still cant see how someone can train 4 to 8 hours a day.


Edited by jude33 (05/01/08 08:37 PM)

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#393420 - 05/01/08 08:03 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: creative]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

I was posting from a self defence perspective. obviously as the calibre of fighter you face increases, so will your level of skill will need to.
My point was really to say that a punch is about as basic a skill as there is in ANY MA. So to say MMA needs too much practice before its techniques are useful/applicable is IMO wrong.
Don't want to say it........a punch is a....cant do it...




Punching is easy and anyone can do it. My four year old can punch.
However, proper punching is a different matter. Much repetition is needed to have an effective punch,but anyone can just punch,lol.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#393421 - 05/02/08 06:06 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: BrianS]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Obviously I'm not explaining myself very well. My comment about punching was in reply to:

[QUOTE] Along with there fitness is there tested and often use techniques (of MMA) that take much skill to use successfully.




My interpretation of the above was that the poster was implying you need a lot of skill to pull of anything from MMA and not so much skill to pull of techniques from outside mma. Am I the only one who uninterpreted read the post that way? lol

My point is basic technique from mma will be learned just as quickly (if not more so) than from any other. So you don't need MORE skill to pull off an mma knee to the groin/ punch to the face, than the same techniques learned from another style. (Not that style even matters!!!!).

Yes practice will improve the skill. Yes you will need more skill against higher calibre of opposition.

On a side not, I'm sure you see a bigger increase in your skill level of punching in the first year compared to the following five or ten, also irrespective of style practiced.
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#393422 - 05/03/08 07:29 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: creative]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


[QUOTE] Along with there fitness is there tested and often use techniques (of MMA) that take much skill to use successfully.



Quote:


My interpretation of the above was that the poster was implying you need a lot of skill to pull of anything from MMA and not so much skill to pull of techniques from outside mma. Am I the only one who uninterpreted read the post that way? lol






My thoughts.

It takes a long time just concentrating on being able to strike effectively bare handed to be used in a self defence situation.
MMA includes a lot of techniques. I have nothing against MMA by the way.

Bear in mind MMA is mixed martial arts. An art outside MMA?
Mixed martial arts means mixed.

If I a person used bare knuckle punching in a bareknuckle MMA competition then that could come from karate training.
In fact in early MMA it sometimes did.

Jude

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#393423 - 05/03/08 10:53 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Bear .

Competing in bareknuckle MMA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAZZiPpFOls


Edited by jude33 (05/03/08 10:58 AM)

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#393424 - 05/03/08 01:00 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

My thoughts.

It takes a long time just concentrating on being able to strike effectively bare handed to be used in a self defence situation.




Can you define 'a long time'? because I don't know if we are agreeing or disagreeing! longer than a 1 hour self defence course? longer than 6 months training 2-3 times a week? longer than 1 year? etc.

Quote:

MMA includes a lot of techniques. I have nothing against MMA by the way.




As do karate and Judo. I have nothing against them too ;-)

Quote:

Bear in mind MMA is mixed martial arts. An art outside MMA?
Mixed martial arts means mixed.




Don't understand what you've written here. Do you mean MMA is a mix of other martial arts therefore implying it has more martial arts to incorporate - thus a lot of techniques? If so i think that concept is a little flawed.
MMA uses what works best, and discards that which does not, or that is the idea. It should not just be a combination of karate, judo and jujitsu.

Quote:

If I a person used bare knuckle punching in a bareknuckle MMA competition then that could come from karate training.




You are a person then??!! lol.
Bareknuckle or not it COULD come from karate, yes.

Quote:

In fact in early MMA it sometimes did.......
Competing in bareknuckle MMA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAZZiPpFOls





Lol. I don't think too many karate ka would be happy with that striking. Early UFC's are not really a fair representation of MMA. (or karate)

Back on topic. MMA training is effective for self defence. From my POV, MMA is as effective as any other MA (or more so), for the majority of people (age, sex, size etc)
_________________________
"Its only pain, it wont hurt you"

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#393425 - 05/03/08 03:04 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: creative]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Can you define 'a long time'? because I don't know if we are agreeing or disagreeing! longer than a 1 hour self defence course? longer than 6 months training 2-3 times a week? longer than 1 year? etc.




How long does it take to be able to do effective bareknuckle/ bare handed striking?


I wouldnt begin to give a time on it. Start the training then and keep going as long as when a person is in their late 60's and beyond.
Seen as you consider bare knuckle striking basic and I am not sure if you have ever done it so;
If you have indeed done bare knuckle strikes/ bare handed strikes and trained with others then please be so kind as to state the

Kind of training you did.
The injuries that can be got from the training and the usage in a self defence scenario. Then we can establish if we are discussing the same thing.
Quote:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAZZiPpFOls




Quote:


Lol. I don't think too many karate ka would be happy with that striking. Early UFC's are not really a fair representation of MMA. (or karate)



Realy? So I presume you train only using gloves?

The video by the way was a pun.
Bear in mind?
The guys nick name was bear?
Quote:


Back on topic. MMA training is effective for self defence. From my POV, MMA is as effective as any other MA (or more so), for the majority of people (age, sex, size etc)




I dont recall saying it couldnt be.
You think more so?
More so than what?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/03/08 03:07 PM)

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#393426 - 05/03/08 04:15 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
okay! Sorry if i've offended you! just been going along with the discussion!!! Anyways....

Quote:

I wouldnt begin to give a time on it. Start the training then and keep going as long as when a person is in their late 60's and beyond.
Seen as you consider bare knuckle striking basic and I am not sure if you have ever done it so




So you think that it is reasonable for someone to train in a martial art, and (for arguments sake) 10 years later that person cannot punch effectively!?
And you are questioning me!?

I have said that punching is basic. Do you not agree? What is more basic than punching in MA?

It is not easy to be a great puncher. But to have a punch which is good enough to get you out of trouble (e.g. in self defence) does not require you to be great. If it does I cant defend myself. Can you?

Quote:

Realy? So I presume you train only using gloves?




Yes really, i don't think the early UFC's are a good representation of MMA or good karate striking. Do you?

No i do not train using only gloves. Neither do I strike people bare knuckle to the face or hit a makiwara.

Quote:

I dont recall saying it couldnt be.




What!!! I didn't say you had!

What has been implied on a few posts is that there are better ways of training for self defence 'fighting' than MMA. Some of the reasons given included there are too many techniques (which you have talked about) and that mma techniques (e.g. a punch) need to much skill to be performed quickly and effectively (again you've talked about this).
I disagree. Have given (valid IMO) arguments, but not had many good points given back. Do you see it this way?

Quote:

You think more so?
More so than what?




Yeah. IMO I think MMA is the best form of training, that is why I do it. But I Know everyone wont agree with that!

More so than what ever the polar bears style is.
_________________________
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#393427 - 05/03/08 10:47 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: creative]
Mastah Offline
Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 66
Loc: PA
I might instead take boxing there
since it might be cheaper and less frequent.

Hopefully they don't charge 75/month for boxing.
_________________________
“Really great people make you feel that you, too, can become great.” - Mark Twain

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#393428 - 05/03/08 11:47 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: creative]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

okay! Sorry if i've offended you! just been going along with the discussion!!! Anyways....




Sounds like an ego trip, you didnt offend me so why state it?
Quote:



So you think that it is reasonable for someone to train in a martial art, and (for arguments sake) 10 years later that person cannot punch effectively!?




You arent reading what I wrote. Martial arts is a life long study. Interesting you didnt pick up on that one.
Quote:


And you are questioning me!?




It might seem so.
Quote:


I have said that punching is basic. Do you not agree? What is more basic than punching in MA?




You are entitled to state that.
Just going off topic. There was a good song from a few years ago. I think the title was what a fool believes
Quote:


It is not easy to be a great puncher. But to have a punch which is good enough to get you out of trouble (e.g. in self defence) does not require you to be great.





Back to the song title.
Quote:


If it does I cant defend myself.




By the sounds of it I would agree with your statement.
Quote:


Can you?




Well I am answering this post quite fit and healthy so I presume that I must have done something correct, somewhere, somehow, but I am still a student and still learning.
Untill I reach some dizzy heights.

Quote:


Yes really, i don't think the early UFC's are a good representation of MMA or good karate striking. Do you?




Perhaps that is because you didnt compete against any of them. Or did you?
Quote:


No i do not train using only gloves. Neither do I strike people bare knuckle to the face or hit a makiwara.




So a bag then? and thats it?

Quote:

.

What has been implied on a few posts is that there are better ways of training for self defence 'fighting' than MMA. Some of the reasons given included there are too many techniques (which you have talked about) and that mma techniques (e.g. a punch) need to much skill to be performed quickly and effectively (again you've talked about this).





Wrong. Re read my posts on this topic.
sounds to me you are taking self defence to lightly.

Quote:

You think more so?
More so than what?



Quote:


Yeah. IMO I think MMA is the best form of training, that is why I do it. But I Know everyone wont agree with that!




MMA can in certain circumstances is a good way of training. There is no such thing as the best.

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#393429 - 05/04/08 01:57 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
TheCrab Offline
Scum
Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
on the whole "its easy to learn how to punch" or whatever debate.

thats a load of S***, some people might take a year of training to get a good left hook, and some people can sit on the couch all day every day and be able to do one.

in fact, the whole topic of different martial arts effectiveness in self defence is void. It comes down to who does it, not who does the art. theres a lot of really tough [censored] around who have never trained before in anything.

youtube jake the muss or something

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#393430 - 05/04/08 05:55 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:


Sounds like an ego trip, you didnt offend me so why state it?





As in your last post you seemed not to want to talk about the subject topic instead just qusetioned the experience of someone you'd never met, and then imply they had none. Constructive. Thought it might get the thread back on topic.

Quote:

You arent reading what I wrote. Martial arts is a life long study. Interesting you didnt pick up on that one.





No. you are not reading what i wrote. I did pick up on what you were saying, but it wasn't answering the question asked. I like the sly dig at the end.....so do you put forward arguments to back up what you've said or insults?

Quote:

You are entitled to state that.
Just going off topic. There was a good song from a few years ago. I think the title was what a fool believes




and here's your answer. btw you were off topic miles ago.

Quote:


Back to the song title.





and again

Quote:

If it does I cant defend myself.
By the sounds of it I would agree with your statement.





again


Quote:


Well I am answering this post quite fit and healthy so I presume that I must have done something correct, somewhere, somehow, but I am still a student and still learning.
Untill I reach some dizzy heights.





You ARE answering this post?
I'll take your word on the rest.
Quote:


"Yes really, i don't think the early UFC's are a good representation of MMA or good karate striking. Do you?"

Perhaps that is because you didnt compete against any of them. Or did you?





That is relevant how?

Quote:


So a bag then? and thats it?





Yes i hit bags and pads and spar.
You punch to the head and use makiwara i take it from the reply?
Quote:


Quote:


What has been implied on a few posts is that there are better ways of training for self defence 'fighting' than MMA. Some of the reasons given included there are too many techniques (which you have talked about) and that mma techniques (e.g. a punch) need to much skill to be performed quickly and effectively (again you've talked about this).




Wrong. Re read my posts on this topic.
sounds to me you are taking self defence to lightly.




you:

Quote:

How long does it take to be able to do effective bareknuckle/ bare handed striking?


I wouldnt begin to give a time on it. Start the training then and keep going as long as when a person is in their late 60's and beyond




You said
Quote:

MMA includes a lot of techniques. I have nothing against MMA by the way.

Bear in mind MMA is mixed martial arts. An art outside MMA?




So i have been reading your posts. Unfortunately you do not seem to be reading mine, or you are but don't have an argument so make one up.

Quote:

MMA can in certain circumstances is a good way of training. There is no such thing as the best.




If that is your opinion.

You have not backed up your views with anything on your past two posts here, just threw a few insults. that's cool, but i've lost interest in attempting to give you structured replies and my ego is just getting dented.
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#393431 - 05/04/08 05:59 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: TheCrab]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

on the whole "its easy to learn how to punch" or whatever debate.

thats a load of S***, some people might take a year of training to get a good left hook, and some people can sit on the couch all day every day and be able to do one.

in fact, the whole topic of different martial arts effectiveness in self defence is void. It comes down to who does it, not who does the art. theres a lot of really tough [censored] around who have never trained before in anything.

youtube jake the muss or something




You are right to some extent. The person may be more important than the style. But the style is important.

note: what i mean by style is what the person learns and how they learn it.
there is good and bad karate, good and bad mma


Edited by creative (05/04/08 06:01 AM)
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#393432 - 05/04/08 08:35 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: creative]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
He is right eh?

Jake "the Muss" Heke is a fictional character created by New Zealand writer Alan Duff. He appears in three of Duff's novels, Once Were Warriors

If you care to answer the question I asked regards bareknuckle punching then this might lead somewhere other wise it wont.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/04/08 08:49 AM)

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#393433 - 05/04/08 09:37 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK


I don't think the point of the post was about the character. My post was very clear.

What was you question I have not answered? please re ask it. - I will answer it if i feel it's relevant.

Btw is the point you are going to make going to be about hand conditioning?
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#393434 - 05/04/08 11:11 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: creative]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



I don't think the point of the post was about the character. My post was very clear.

What was you question I have not answered? please re ask it. - I will answer it if i feel it's relevant.

Btw is the point you are going to make going to be about hand conditioning?




Slow down. Its got nothing to do with your character.
How can I put this with sounding like a know all?

Ok I will speak from experience.
Most people who only train punching using gloves dont have the
Technique
physical conditioning
the tissue adjustment of the body

to hit hard or effectively in a S/D scenario with out busting their hands.
This applies to heavy weight boxers/ street fighters/ karate ka any body realy.

People with all of the above can still get injured but it generaly isnt as bad as those who dont train for that purpose.

The teachings for this go back to Trad karate.
I suppose somewhere it will be in the chinese arts.
To be able to defend one self effectively using bare knuckle or open hand techniques requires quite a long training regime.

I think it was one of the reasons why they started using gloves in MMA

Vale tudo doesnt use gloves.
Even some of those guys dont connect with punches. So the skill factor is on going all the time.

So in effect the training is progressive. It has to.
It is like training for a 160 kg free weight bench press minus steriods.
Most people would be capable of doing it but it takes a lot of time for the body to compensate.

Add to the punching and hand conditioning other things like forearm shin etc it does take a fair bit of time and repetition for the body to adjust and to get the technique correct.

Then in trad arts it is carried on untill people are in their 70's. Some guys in their 70's are excellent.

Jude


MMA to me is fine, it shows how and where techiques can be used. It can be progressive.

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#393435 - 05/04/08 01:28 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
"Jake "the Muss" Heke is a fictional character created by New Zealand writer Alan Duff. He appears in three of Duff's novels, Once Were Warriors "

WHAT THE HELL MAN!!! you are the most random person i have ever seen with the ability to use a computer.
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#393436 - 05/04/08 03:34 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

"Jake "the Muss" Heke is a fictional character created by New Zealand writer Alan Duff. He appears in three of Duff's novels, Once Were Warriors "






That particuler part was a copy and paste. I dont write some of these articles. ?
Bit like a car, I drive them but I dont make them.
I presume by your statement he exists then?

Quote:



WHAT THE HELL MAN!!! you are the most random person i have ever seen with the ability to use a computer.




Coming from your good self I shall take that as a compliment. Now I feel good all over.

random person = no definition of the term

Random= governed by or depending on chance

Chance is one of the favourite terms used in evolu-. tionary biology.

It is by chance we exist. If we didint exist there would be no MMA or karate or computers.

It can be by chance a person has to use self defence just to keep it on topic.

be cool bro

Jude

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#393437 - 05/04/08 05:14 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:

Quote:



I don't think the point of the post was about the character. My post was very clear.

What was you question I have not answered? please re ask it. - I will answer it if i feel it's relevant.

Btw is the point you are going to make going to be about hand conditioning?




Slow down. Its got nothing to do with your character.




Are you telling a joke that I don't get? I never mentioned MY character?! You seem not to read posts very well.


Quote:

How can I put this with sounding like a know all?

Ok I will speak from experience.
Most people who only train punching using gloves dont have the
Technique
physical conditioning
the tissue adjustment of the body

to hit hard or effectively in a S/D scenario with out busting their hands.
This applies to heavy weight boxers/ street fighters/ karate ka any body realy.

People with all of the above can still get injured but it generaly isnt as bad as those who dont train for that purpose.

The teachings for this go back to Trad karate.
I suppose somewhere it will be in the chinese arts.
To be able to defend one self effectively using bare knuckle or open hand techniques requires quite a long training regime.




You don't sound like a know it all! This is perhaps the first point you've made backing up your 'long time' to punch thoughts.

lol. I'm going to disagree with you here too!!

While i'm sure hand conditioning can reduce the chances of breaking your hand punching, I do not see it as a worth while practice. A few reasons for this include:

1) When punching someone you should not be aiming for the solid bone parts of the body. You should not break you hand punching to the nose (cartilage) or the jaw (has 'give) - ofcourse you can easily miss.
2) Conditioning has negative effects such as deforming hands, reducing dexterity. This may not hamper your martial arts, but is not good for every day life.
3) Time conditioning can be spent more effectively i.e. improving skill.

To be honest even if you hit someone to get out of a self defence encounter and in the process cracked a knuckle, i'd call that pretty effective self defence. Better than having messed up hands all your life, only to be used once or twice (or never) in self defence.

Quote:

I think it was one of the reasons why they started using gloves in MMA




Yes that was one of the reasons. but in SD one or two strikes should hopefully be enough, you are not going to be g'n'ping your opponent so much in SD!

I think that hitting a makiwara - or what ever. Is wasting training time that can be spent more efficiently, But I do understand why people do it, even if i disagree with it.


Edited by creative (05/04/08 05:15 PM)
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#393438 - 05/04/08 06:02 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
i said random because you "quote" stuff that has no revelance to whats being discussed.

"Jake "the Muss" Heke is a fictional character created by New Zealand writer Alan Duff. He appears in three of Duff's novels, Once Were Warriors "

how does that apply to the topic of MMA as self defence?

"I presume by your statement he exists then?"

what in the name of god are you talking about? who am i saying exists? the characture in some dudes books?

"It can be by chance a person has to use self defence just to keep it on topic."

and no, your not keeping on topic. not in any way shape or form in the sense of the word topic are you keeping on topic. i feel bad for derailing a thread to this point, but come on man!
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#393439 - 05/05/08 09:45 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: creative]
matxtx Offline
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Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Good points about the bareknuckles.

In Brazil they have gone back to bareknuckle MMA.Look for Rioheroes on YouTube.

Other points I would add are that it doeant take a full slam into someones head or face to knock them out.A knockout is caused by the brain suddenly jolting so you want to make the head spin suddenly so clipping the jaw and spinning the head is the type of thing needed.
Also it depends on your personal tactics .Doing big massive full on shots that leave you open and off balance if you miss but hurt your hands if you do hit are not a good idea it seems.Better to use shorter sharper punching that wont damage and at least stuns. Also maybe tacticaly look to set up knees and elbows as finish strikes so you wont as likely get damaged.
This is advice I have seen and makes sense to me and it works well.

Plus I think that a person fully involved will keep going and not notice untill after or maybe the next day,injuries to things like the hands.
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#393440 - 05/05/08 10:34 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

i said random because you "quote" stuff that has no revelance to whats being discussed.

" Jake "the Muss" Heke is a fictional character created by New Zealand writer Alan Duff. He appears in three of Duff's novels, Once Were Warriors "

how does that apply to the topic of MMA as self defence ?






Was in response to the crabs posting.
If you bothered to read the thread it was quite clear.
I have put the points you missed in bold format so you dont miss them again.
The crabs quote scroll back a bit its there.
Quote:


in fact, the whole topic of different martial arts effectiveness in self defence is void. It comes down to who does it, not who does the art. theres a lot of really tough [censored] around who have never trained before in anything.

youtube jake the muss or something






Quote:


"I presume by your statement he exists then?"

what in the name of god are you talking about? who am i saying exists? the characture in some dudes books?




Its no wonder you refuse to recognise or see ground fighting in karate. You dont seem to want to read all the postings on here.

Just going off topic some what.

Quote from some one else
Control your emotion or it will control you. --Chinese adage
End of quote from some one else.

SOL take it easy.

Jude

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#393441 - 05/05/08 11:21 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: creative]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


lol. I'm going to disagree with you here too!!




This could get interesting.
Quote:


While i'm sure hand conditioning can reduce the chances of breaking your hand punching, I do not see it as a worth while practice. A few reasons for this include:

1) When punching someone you should not be aiming for the solid bone parts of the body. You should not break you hand punching to the nose (cartilage) or the jaw (has 'give) - ofcourse you can easily miss.





Quote from MIke Tyson.
''I haven't been in a street fight in seven years,'' said Tyson. ''I was scared. He hit me in the chest. I hit him over the eye or something. He came back again. I had no other choice but to defend myself. He was not in a good state of mind. He was upset

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE0DB133CF937A1575BC0A96E948260

This is where he substained a fracture in his hand.
Unusual for Tyson. He didint knock the guy out.

First off if during a punch out the attacker is moving his head a lot and the fur is flying it would be very doubtfull if the defender has a great choice where he connects. Yes there are all these wondefull techniques but they cant always be relied on to work everytime.

Combine that with a scenario where there are more than one present with an attacker.

On an attacker the solid parts of the body are also target areas although not for the fist.

If the defender hits the attacker on the jaw hard enough with the outer two knuckles then there is a 90 percent chance the hand will be damaged in that area. Quite a common injury in gloved boxing.

Again this goes back to technique training using bareknuckle with high reps. To try to perfect the technique.
Quote:


2) Conditioning has negative effects such as deforming hands, reducing dexterity. This may not hamper your martial arts, but is not good for every day life.




That is a total myth. If done correctly then there are no side effects. If done incorrectly and to attempted to speed up the process then perhaps
Quote:


3) Time conditioning can be spent more effectively i.e. improving skill.




Press ups? Arent they done anyway? Difference is using the fingers and on the fist as opposed to just flat hand
Striking practice?
Weight training isnt that done anyway?
.

Quote:



To be honest even if you hit someone to get out of a self defence encounter and in the process cracked a knuckle, i'd call that pretty effective self defence.




So what happens if the defender has broken hands and the attacker(s) hasnt? Bad choice.

Quote:


Better than having messed up hands all your life, only to be used once or twice (or never) in self defence.



Doesnt mess up the hands if done correctly.

Quote:

I think it was one of the reasons why they started using gloves in MMA



Quote:


Yes that was one of the reasons. but in SD one or two strikes should hopefully be enough,




Doubtfull if that would work but dependent on the attacker.
To hope for that and train for that is foolish.
Quote:



I think that hitting a makiwara - or what ever. Is wasting training time that can be spent more efficiently, But I do understand why people do it, even if i disagree with it.




So would you say the same thing for bag work then?
striking is striking. Regardless what is struck.

Bag work is still done as well as makiwari.
so is the use of a speed ball.

Jude

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#393442 - 05/05/08 11:36 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: matxtx]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



In
.Doing big massive full on shots that leave you open and off balance




If your going off balance and you are left open you might want to revise your training.
Quote:


Quote:



Better to use shorter sharper punching that wont damage and at least stuns.




It is called the jab in boxing and the same comparison can be found in karate and I should imagine kung fu.
The jab or comparative punch in karate can be used to set up the as you term the big shot.
But I dont think the big shot would be thrown quite as you state.
And why not work on devloping a fast hard jab or comparitive punch in karate?. In which case life would be easier.
There have been knock outs using the strike, Sonny Liston was one guy who did it on a regular basis.




Also maybe tacticaly look to set up knees and elbows as finish strikes so you wont as likely get damaged.




Ok
Quote:


Plus I think that a person fully involved will keep going and not notice untill after or maybe the next day,injuries to things like the hands.




I dont think it always works like that.
Busted/ broken hands= cant use them
Busted/broken wrists= cant use them

There are techniques in trad karate soley for that purpose to do that kind of damage to an attacker.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/05/08 11:39 AM)

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#393443 - 05/05/08 01:32 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Quote:


Quote from MIke Tyson.
''I haven't been in a street fight in seven years,'' said Tyson. ''I was scared. He hit me in the chest. I hit him over the eye or something. He came back again. I had no other choice but to defend myself. He was not in a good state of mind. He was upset

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE0DB133CF937A1575BC0A96E948260

This is where he substained a fracture in his hand.
Unusual for Tyson. He didint knock the guy out.




because he hit the guy in the eye! By the sounds he also defended himself successfully.
Yes he damaged his hand, but had no long term problems and went on to become HW champ again. - without hitting a makiwara!

Quote:

First off if during a punch out the attacker is moving his head a lot and the fur is flying it would be very doubtfull if the defender has a great choice where he connects. Yes there are all these wondefull techniques but they cant always be relied on to work everytime.




I would say if you aim for the nose, there is a very good chance you are going to hit it. In my experience of street fights, there the aggressor will square up to the the victim, try to intimidate him that way. they will tend not to use head movement as in a sport fight. - And if the do, you've been practicing against live opponents, so will have a good chance of hitting them accurately. Win Win.

Quote:

Combine that with a scenario where there are more than one present with an attacker.




Irrelevant point. More than one attacker and you are in trouble full stop.

Quote:

On an attacker the solid parts of the body are also target areas although not for the fist.




Yes, but this has nothing to do with what we're discussing.

Quote:

If the defender hits the attacker on the jaw hard enough with the outer two knuckles then there is a 90 percent chance the hand will be damaged in that area. Quite a common injury in gloved boxing.




I think you've made that stat up. Can you back it up?

Quote:

Again this goes back to technique training using bareknuckle with high reps. To try to perfect the technique.




I don't believe you are arguing perfection of technique. You seem to be arguing hand conditioning. Above you have said that technique often goes wrong.

Quote:

Quote:


2) Conditioning has negative effects such as deforming hands, reducing dexterity. This may not hamper your martial arts, but is not good for every day life.




That is a total myth. If done correctly then there are no side effects. If done incorrectly and to attempted to speed up the process then perhaps




It is not a myth! I'm sure there are even people on this forum who will have had bad experience with conditioning.
What would you define as the correct way of conditioning? As the okinawans did? If you look at the methods put forward in the bubishi, they quite brutal. - And will do more harm than good.
What would you call the right method?

Quote:

Quote:


3) Time conditioning can be spent more effectively i.e. improving skill.




Press ups? Arent they done anyway? Difference is using the fingers and on the fist as opposed to just flat hand
Striking practice?
Weight training isnt that done anyway?





Yes but the conditioning effect that you are talking about is a by product of these exercises, not the main reason for doing them.
Quote:


So would you say the same thing for bag work then?
striking is striking. Regardless what is struck.

Bag work is still done as well as makiwari.
so is the use of a speed ball.

Jude




Again, the purpose of hitting a makiwara is to condition the hands. That is not the purpose of hitting a bag etc

Quote:

I dont think it always works like that.
Busted/ broken hands= cant use them
Busted/broken wrists= cant use them




Fighters bust there hands all the time and carry on. Look what Calzaghe did to Lacy with a busted hand. I myself (before i started MA before you say anything!) broke knuckle and continued to fight, punching with the hand. Did not realise till after when my knuckle was the size of a golf ball!


Edited by creative (05/05/08 01:41 PM)
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#393444 - 05/05/08 01:35 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: creative]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Jude,
Can i ask you a few questions

What do you think are the physical effects of conditioning the hands?

If hand conditioning was not a factor, Do you think it would take someone a 'Long time' to be able to punch effectively?
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#393445 - 05/05/08 03:23 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: creative]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Jude,
Can i ask you a few questions

What do you think are the physical effects of conditioning the hands?

If hand conditioning was not a factor, Do you think it would take someone a 'Long time' to be able to punch effectively?







Quote:




I myself (before i started MA before you say anything!) broke knuckle and continued to fight, punching with the hand.




If you broke a knuckle it means you connected.

If you state you can connect to the intended target area it means you connected to an ideal place.

To I presume a soft area?.

If you continued to fight then you didnt get a K.O or strike the attacker hard enough to end it. Yet you still broke the knuckle .What does that tell you?

If this was before you MMA training and you still use gloves then the hand conditioning will be minimum.
If your punching power/ techique has improved what happens the next time?

In a way you have just answered you own questions.

We arent on the same wave length. If the people you went against were bluffers then again you have answered you own questions.

Regards the training I have decribed it. Technique work is part of it although you will find with bare knuckle things have to be changed again the drift can be got from what I described.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/05/08 03:25 PM)

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#393446 - 05/05/08 04:05 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
creative Offline
Member

Registered: 04/26/04
Posts: 401
Loc: UK
Jude
Basically you've answered nothing with that post. And we definitely aint on the same wavelength.

Quote:

If you continued to fight then you didnt get a K.O or strike the attacker hard enough to end it. Yet you still broke the knuckle .What does that tell you?




What it may tell me is that i was an inexperienced untrained person with poor fighting skills.
What are you implying it tells me? If i had trained your way before hand, I might have (had i been training for a 'LONG TIME) not broke the knuckle.

Your logic is...ill, you are very difficult to have a discussion with as you do not read posts properly, you answer questions that have not been asked, any points that you do make (and some of them i thought were good points)you are not able to back up with a good argument and when valid points are made you seem to ignore them.

Once again
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#393447 - 05/05/08 04:05 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
the post you first mentioned jake the muss in might have been directed at crab, but if you look closely you said it in reply to creative. even thogh i have read all the posts (thanks for making assumptions again, by the way) that makes it a little hard to follow.

"Its no wonder you refuse to recognise or see ground fighting in karate. You dont seem to want to read all the postings on here."

moi? thats a pointless dig from another thread. drop it and get back on topic or dan't say anything at all. please.

"Control your emotion or it will control you. --Chinese adage"

thanks?

back to something that matters...

the addition of gloves into mma matches, was to protect the hands of the people punching. and for safety sake, ie it helps limit fluid transfer between the two fighters, like blood from the knuckles going into a cut on the opponents face. no amout of mak training will prevent your hands from busting open when you hit a "hard" target like the skull.

one of the primary benifets of mak training is to help in strengthing the wrist so it won't give when you hit a solid target. not to callous the skin to the point of making it "bullet proof". the bones get a little denser due ot the impact training according to wolf's law, however the same benifet can be gained from bag training. maybe not to the same degree, but theres no stdies comparing the two. boxers forearm bones do get denser due to the impact of the pads and bags and people they hit. same with combative sports or arts.

if you look at alot of the top guys teaching self protection now a days they tend to get away from punching and go more towards using head butts, knees, elbows, palm strikes and finger jabs or rakes to the eyes. not to mention the primary focus on awareness. the idea is that theres always a chance you'll bst your knuckles, so the tools i listed are prefered because they are hard to damage when you use them to attack. its always posible to bend your wrist back on a palm strike, that why repetetions are the key, it takes training to use ANY technique under stress. and a proper palm shot can be just as (some say more) painfull then a closed fist shot.

punching is alos an inherently more agressive action then hitting with the palm, and theres a chance it might be viewed less harshly by a judge if it goes to court. if a witness tells a cop that he say a couple of guys pounding away at eachother, it can be viewed as a fight. conversely if you ko a guy with a palm to the jaw, the witness might say "he just slaped him" the other things like knees or head butts are "slightly" more savage and not really subject to the same thing.

all in all, mma would be a great base for slf protection, and i mean great "base". if you want to consider yourself able to protect yourself then take a self protection course. they stress awareness and the "fence" more then teaching 7 ways to go for a knee bar from butterfly guard. mma's best contribution to self protection would have to be that its keeps you very athletic and explosive, all the techniques are great and bad ass and all, but self protection is rather simple in comparision.
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#393448 - 05/05/08 04:27 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
just to note.

"If you continued to fight then you didnt get a K.O or strike the attacker hard enough to end it. Yet you still broke the knuckle .What does that tell you?"

if you get hurt in a fight are you gonna stop fighitng? im sure i'll only fight if i have to, and if i happen to break a hand and the fight is still on, i'll hit him with everything else, like im sure anyone would. just for the sake of making a point, even if you break a hand you can still hit with the palm heel of the hand (depending on the break), all 4 sides of the forearm, knife hand (depending on the break), one knuckle strike (depending on the break) and the elbow on the arm you borke your hand. you can still use that arm to parry or hell, fight through the pain and hit him with it again.

i thinks its a moot point. if you train your tools, they stand a good chance of doing what you intend them to do. mak training is outdated, however still usefull in some respects.
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#393449 - 05/06/08 07:15 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: creative]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Jude
Basically you've answered nothing with that post. And we definitely aint on the same wavelength.

Quote:

If you continued to fight then you didnt get a K.O or strike the attacker hard enough to end it. Yet you still broke the knuckle .What does that tell you?




What it may tell me is that i was an inexperienced untrained person with poor fighting skills.
What are you implying it tells me? If i had trained your way before hand, I might have (had i been training for a 'LONG TIME) not broke the knuckle.




And you cant see that? For the little scenario you described that wouldnt take a long time
Quote:



Your logic is...ill, you are very difficult to have a discussion with as you do not read posts properly, you answer questions that have not been asked, any points that you do make (and some of them i thought were good points)you are not able to back up with a good argument and when valid points are made you seem to ignore them.



I diss agree. So do you still think bare knuckle boxing striking is basic? Doesnt take a long time to get?

The fact is I dont think you have much experience of it so your thoughts are only related to what you imagine how things are. MMA training is a good method of training.
It is one method of training. It isnt the only method of training.

Jude

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#393450 - 05/06/08 07:26 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
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Quote:


if you look at alot of the top guys teaching self protection now a days they tend to get away from punching




In sport
Boxers punch. MMA punch. Most striking arts punch so why do S/D get away from it?
Why did certain arts include maki wari, weight training, and conditioning?
Perhaps because they knew about the broken hand syndrome?

Quote:


and go more towards using head butts, knees, elbows, palm strikes and finger jabs or rakes to the eyes.




For self defence purposes.
That would be another discussion. Head butts need to be assisted with some form of weight training other wise the neck does funny things.
Palm strikes/finger jabs/ rakes as you call them still need the limbs conditioned.
Along with weight training of some description.
Just teaching or practicing techique alone isn’t the best method.
Quote:


not to mention the primary focus on awareness. the idea is that theres always a chance you'll bst your knuckles,





I am glad you agreed on my point. So you agree knuckles can get bust?
All the more reason for conditioning training and bare knuckle striking.
Quote:



so the tools i listed are prefered because they are hard to damage when you use them to attack




I am not sure about preferred they should be part of the whole self defence thing.
Conditioned along with bare knuckle training and weight training of some description.
Quote:


. its always posible to bend your wrist back on a palm strike, that why repetetions are the key, it takes training to use ANY technique under stress. and a proper palm shot can be just as (some say more) painfull then a closed fist shot.




Exactly what I was saying. Except the original idea for limb conditioning was created for that very reason so why miss parts of it out?
Quote:



just to note.

"If you continued to fight then you didnt get a K.O or strike the attacker hard enough to end it. Yet you still broke the knuckle .What does that tell you?"


if you get hurt in a fight are you gonna stop fighitng? im sure i'll only fight if i have to, and if i happen to break a hand and the fight is still on, i'll hit him with everything else, like im sure anyone would. just for the sake of making a point, even if you break a hand you can still hit with the palm heel of the hand (depending on the break), all 4 sides of the forearm, knife hand (depending on the break), one knuckle strike (depending on the break) and the elbow on the arm you borke your hand. you can still use that arm to parry or hell, fight through the pain and hit him with it again.






So what happens in a S/D you break two hands?
.
As regards carrying on with the encounter it would depend on the degree of the injury.
So it would make sense to train restrict the amount of damage that can happen.
And to train to make the strikes as hard and fast a possible. Again the harder the strike becomes the more the need for the strength gains in the surrounding areas. And conditioning.




Correct technique training( Trained open handed/ bare knuckle)
Weigth training
Conditioning
Fitness.

Your missing one point. If conditioning lessens the chance of injury then why not use it?
If in self defence a soft target is connected with and the knuckle is bust then why not at a later date condition the hands so the chance of it happening again are less?

Quote:



i thinks its a moot point. if you train your tools, they stand a good chance of doing what you intend them to do. mak training is outdated, however still usefull in some respects.





If the tools are trained correctly then there is a good chance they do what was intended.
If the knuckle gets damaged then the training could have been done better.
Eg with conditioning. Maki wari training might be termed out dated by those that have never attempted to use it. But there it is. A martial art might become a pure art minus the correct principles. As regards pure heavy bag use for conditioning. Fine I often use one. But there is a difference.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/06/08 07:33 AM)

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#393451 - 05/06/08 07:30 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: student_of_life]
TheCrab Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
Quote:

If you continued to fight then you didnt get a K.O or strike the attacker hard enough to end it. Yet you still broke the knuckle .What does that tell you?



tells me that you cant punch worth a buggery. Ive never broken my hand on someones face, and frankly if your hitting the wrong spots then you need to work on your fighting skills, not your hand conditioning.

Quote:

if you get hurt in a fight are you gonna stop fighitng?




^ =

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#393452 - 05/06/08 07:42 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: TheCrab]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

If you continued to fight then you didnt get a K.O or strike the attacker hard enough to end it. Yet you still broke the knuckle .What does that tell you?



tells me that you cant punch worth a buggery. Ive never broken my hand on someones face, and frankly if your hitting the wrong spots then you need to work on your fighting skills, not your hand conditioning.

Quote:

if you get hurt in a fight are you gonna stop fighitng?




^ =




Yes but that was before any kind of training. So is stated,

The point being if the knuckle was bust during a S/D encounter and the target area was soft tissue.

If the person then trains hard enough using gloves then providing everything is good they should improve in techique and striking ability eg hitting harder than when un trained.

If they have a another S/D encounter and should they strike this time bare knuckle harder then the chances are the damage to the hand will be greater.

Jude

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#393453 - 05/06/08 01:38 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
matxtx Offline
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Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
I am out of this post haha.
I dont want to get into a back and forth posting thing ever again if I can help it,lol.
I will just give reference points to why I say what I do from the source of my information.

http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk/07lettersstreetfightfisthand.htm

And some more here.
http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk/07letterswhichknuckles.htm
And Iv tried it ,seen it live,been to the authors sessions so I believe in the kind of punching I meant.
If you disagree,no problem.
Conditioning Knuckles hardcore is not a bad thing though its not a major flaw that makes MMA striking or boxers void for SD.

Some more interesting stuff on punching bare knuckle and on Open hand V Punch in this thread.

http://selfprotection.lightbb.com/q-a-with-steve-morris-f16/training-with-steve-morris-t4325-15.htm
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#393454 - 05/06/08 03:37 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
"In sport
Boxers punch. MMA punch. Most striking arts punch so why do S/D get away from it?
Why did certain arts include maki wari, weight training, and conditioning?
Perhaps because they knew about the broken hand syndrome?"

because not every one wanta to practice old style traiing methods, and there is a need for reglar people to protect them selves from violence. the people who post on this forum arn't regular ( ) haha, face it, if your on this form you take martial arts seriously. many people don't have the time or interest to invest in the rigerous conditioning that say okinawain karate ka use, and they need to be aware of tools they have that don't require alot of time to become proficient in. if they want to become more proficient in their use, then they would be martial artists, instead of simply interested in protection.

"For self defence purposes.
That would be another discussion. Head butts need to be assisted with some form of weight training other wise the neck does funny things.
Palm strikes/finger jabs/ rakes as you call them still need the limbs conditioned.
Along with weight training of some description.
Just teaching or practicing techique alone isn’t the best method."

of coarse, but not every one is a karate ka. heck, im not sure if i wan't to be anymore.

"I am glad you agreed on my point. So you agree knuckles can get bust?
All the more reason for conditioning training and bare knuckle striking."

i work most of my heavy bag bare handed, and i pay for it. just to make it clear i'll say it again. mak training WILL NOT protect your knuckles from busting open, nothing will callous the skin on the hands to that point. i've never used dit da jow, but i've known people who have and their hands are not "bust proof"


"I am not sure about preferred they should be part of the whole self defence thing.
Conditioned along with bare knuckle training and weight training of some description."

put it this way, your grand ma isn't gonna KTFO mike tyson with a right cross. she needs options that require less training and less preperation then learning an art that would get her a black belt. would it help? hell yes. will every one go train in martial arts? hell no.

"Exactly what I was saying. Except the original idea for limb conditioning was created for that very reason so why miss parts of it out?"

again, because not every one has time on interest in learing how to become a leathal weapon. more training will always help, but even makiwara conditioned hands won't garentee anything.

"So what happens in a S/D you break two hands?"

not worth a discusion my man. what happens if this? what happens if that? don't ask me, train for what you think you will encounter. if you really want to train that, then tie both hands behind your back and go pick a fight, lol.

"Your missing one point. If conditioning lessens the chance of injury then why not use it?"

if you train on any kind on impact pad, your conditioning and it will help. the primary reason for impact training is to train the proper alignment of the wrist and entire body so you don't bend and hurt your wrist (which is much more commen then bsting open a knuckle, and much more of a handicap in a fight).

"As regards pure heavy bag use for conditioning. Fine I often use one. But there is a difference."

yes there is, thats why i've used both. and i favor hitting people over either, lol.
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#393455 - 05/06/08 04:13 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: TheCrab]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
"tells me that you cant punch worth a buggery. Ive never broken my hand on someones face, and frankly if your hitting the wrong spots then you need to work on your fighting skills, not your hand conditioning."

tell that to jude, i quoted that from him. and as a side note, i can punch worth a "buggery".
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#393456 - 05/07/08 03:49 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: matxtx]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

I am out of this post haha.
I dont want to get into a back and forth posting thing ever again if I can help it,lol.
I will just give reference points to why I say what I do from the source of my information.





Posting back and forth can be a learning curve for both parties.
I am still a student and still learning so hopefully you wont be put off by back and forth posting.
SOL and myself have a fair old conversation about things.
Its all good stuff even if it isnt done in a P/C B/S way.
So long as it doesnt get nasty its fine. He does have some fine karate. From the videos I have seen from him.
Problem is he is better looking( along with Barad) than me so I leave video postings to him. (and maybe one day Barad?)



Here is my take. Doesnt have to be anybody elses take but like I said somewhere each to their own.
In an attacker/ defender situation and from the article.I dont think the forehead is not the best thing to use for a headbutt just my preference.

If the guy dips his head the head butter ends up headbutting the top and or side of the head of the guy he is trying to headbutt with his own face. I suppose you could try it with a willing partner of going through the motions. With out headbutting.

Punching the ground? I think on a hard deck punching downwards isnt the best thing to do anyhow. I would use the forearm in a S/D scenario.

The punching a wall part? Plain common sense.
Most people who winge about power punching, well that is their choice, if they prefer alternatives. It takes time. I am still on the journey. But there again I am but a mere student so what would I know.
Quote:



http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk/07lettersstreetfightfisthand.htm

And some more here.
http://www.morrisnoholdsbarred.co.uk/07letterswhichknuckles.htm
And Iv tried it ,seen it live,been to the authors sessions so I believe in the kind of punching I meant.
If you disagree,no problem.
Conditioning Knuckles hardcore is not a bad thing though its not a major flaw that makes MMA striking or boxers void for SD.

Some more interesting stuff on punching bare knuckle and on Open hand V Punch in this thread.

http://selfprotection.lightbb.com/q-a-with-steve-morris-f16/training-with-steve-morris-t4325-15.htm




I will read the rest later.

S.O.L

Each to their own. I train as per the old time as you state karate ka to the best of my ability. Still a student.
Still learning though.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/07/08 04:27 AM)

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#393457 - 05/07/08 04:39 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

" and i favor hitting people over either, lol.".




See that is the difference. I train so I can avoid it.
Unless it is controlled competition and they would want me to wear those silly gloves.

Naaaa.

Should go back to the old days where karate matches were bareknuckle and full contact was agreed by both parties.

Think they still do somewhere?

Japan maybe?

Jude

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#393458 - 05/07/08 06:19 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
you don't have to go to japan to find a fight jude. and the main reason most people don't train that way anymore is safety. you go 9 rounds of bare knuckle boxing, and i promise you some one is going to the hospital.
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#393459 - 05/07/08 07:32 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

you don't have to go to japan to find a fight jude. and the main reason most people don't train that way anymore is safety. you go 9 rounds of bare knuckle boxing, and i promise you some one is going to the hospital.



Boxing? Vale tudo still do it.
Bare knuckle karate was trained and used in competition.

Have a look at the early K.U.G.B bouts in the uk. Those guys are still about.
Have a look at the JKA police in Japan?
Bit hard core but it is there.

Ditto
Preference thing though. Not exactly safe. As per Kano's logic.

Jude

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#393460 - 05/07/08 08:57 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas
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#393461 - 05/07/08 12:56 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: BrianS]
Mastah Offline
Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 66
Loc: PA
What about wolff's law?

When bone experiences trauma it adapts by becoming stronger,like muscles.

Take that religious fanatics, evolution remains supreme.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolff's_law
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#393462 - 05/07/08 01:56 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
matxtx Offline
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Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 700
Loc: england
Yes I agree that its good to discuss though It can be hard to pick up on the tone,if its a jest if its an accusation or a wind up.It can be hard to explain if A person takes a post wrong or gets too far into details.So Iv realised staying out of the back and forth thing is the best policy if I can.Posting on a forum means I asking for it though I guess haha.

An example

Quote:

Most people who winge about power punching, well that is their choice, if they prefer alternatives.




No one is winging at power punching and that can be taken as though thats what you believe I am doing.Fair enough but now I have to explain I am not haha (See. The back and forth thing)
Powerfull punches are great.Though doing too powerfull a punch ,a big shot ,that you injure yourself is not a good pay off.Unless your conditioning of course.If your not then just keep them stunning shots ,still powerfull and viscouse, and then do the big shot when its tacticaly wise too when they are stunned.Or when its sensible too.Or doing something besides punching when they are stunned.Like leaving,lol.
Its not doing unpowerfull punches or saying powerfull shots are bad.Also a point is that using angles and the accumilation of lots of fairly powerfull punches more than makes up for using a big punch. And saves your hands.

Quote:

Here is my take. Doesnt have to be anybody elses take but like I said somewhere each to their own.
In an attacker/ defender situation and from the article.I dont think the forehead is not the best thing to use for a headbutt just my preference.

If the guy dips his head the head butter ends up headbutting the top and or side of the head of the guy he is trying to headbutt with his own face. I suppose you could try it with a willing partner of going through the motions. With out headbutting.

Punching the ground? I think on a hard deck punching downwards isnt the best thing to do anyhow. I would use the forearm in a S/D scenario.

The punching a wall part? Plain common sense.





I dont understand how its got onto headbutts,sorry.No mention of headbutts from the article from what I read.Headbutts is not part this discussion for me.
Punching walls or the ground is refering to doing it accidently in all the chaos.
Not punching walls or what to do if striking downwards is not part of this discussion for me.

Totaly respect your veiws and how each are to their own.And I still learning too.
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#393463 - 05/07/08 06:21 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: Mastah]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

What about wolff's law?

When bone experiences trauma it adapts by becoming stronger,like muscles.

Take that religious fanatics, evolution remains supreme.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolff's_law




There's a big difference between adaptation and evolution,since you brought it up.

Wolves, dogs, coyotes, and all canine's are related. Lions are related to cats and all felines,but none of these were ever a lizard, da- hir.

Take that!!

"Each from it's own kind."
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#393464 - 05/07/08 06:22 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: BrianS]
BrianS Offline
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Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:






This is what I feel like when I read jude's random and argumentative posts.
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#393465 - 05/07/08 07:50 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: BrianS]
Mastah Offline
Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 66
Loc: PA
......well how is a lizard going to be a lion first of all?

But wolff's law seems accurate my knuckles have gotten
bigger by placing them under trauma.

Of course that doesn't provide their stronger, but they do take more damage than they used to.


Edited by Mastah (05/07/08 07:52 PM)
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#393466 - 05/08/08 12:15 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: Mastah]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

What about wolff's law?

When bone experiences trauma it adapts by becoming stronger,like muscles.






Yep, they adapt.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/08/08 12:44 PM)

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#393467 - 05/08/08 12:27 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

What about wolff's law?

When bone experiences trauma it adapts by becoming stronger,like muscles.

Take that religious fanatics, evolution remains supreme.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolff's_law




There's a big difference between adaptation and evolution,since you brought it up.

Wolves, dogs, coyotes, and all canine's are related. Lions are related to cats and all felines,but none of these were ever a lizard, da- hir.

Take that!!

"Each from it's own kind."




I will type this one clearly so Brian doesnt get too confused.

Everything living is related back somewhere in the past. If evolution is believed. Just have to trace it back and study the science of DNA to prove or disprove the findings.


Evolution and some of the teachings in religion connect so realy fanatics tend to read / believe the words of some man.



But that is a debate that isnt wanted by some so I wont get in to it.

Jude.



Edited by jude33 (05/08/08 12:42 PM)

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#393468 - 05/08/08 12:34 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: matxtx]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Good posting.

My reference was after I had read the link posted.

But it doesnt matter. Its off topic anyhow.

Jude

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#393469 - 05/08/08 04:20 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
"I will type this one clearly so Brian doesnt get too confused."

thats the kind of stuff that [censored] people off. don't take these digs at people and you won't be treated like a child by the forum members.
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#393470 - 05/08/08 09:41 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


Everything living is related back somewhere in the past. If evolution is believed. Just have to trace it back and study the science of DNA to prove or disprove the findings.





Wow, you must be real-live scientist or something to come with something like this.


Sometimes I really wonder whether you have a "pointless inane post generator" hidden somewhere.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/08/08 09:56 PM)

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#393471 - 05/08/08 10:33 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
This thread is going nowhere fast guys.

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#393472 - 05/09/08 01:19 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: JKogas]
BrianS Offline
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Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Yes, John, it is.

Look at threads where jude participates. Going nowhere fast seems to be a reoccuring theme with him.

p.s. Thanks for typing so clearly jude, it really does make a difference when the post appears.

p.s.s. Thanks Zach!
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#393473 - 05/09/08 10:16 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Its ok
S.O.L,
zach,
and brian,

Yeah right!!! What ever floats your boats!!



I understand,


Either way have fun.

Jude

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#393474 - 05/09/08 10:20 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: BrianS]
Mastah Offline
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Wow this thread did go from
could mma be practical in self-defense to
evolution.



Edited by Mastah (05/09/08 10:20 AM)
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#393475 - 05/09/08 10:43 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Yes, John, it is.

Look at threads where jude participates. Going nowhere fast seems to be a reoccuring theme with him.

p.s. Thanks for typing so clearly jude, it really does make a difference when the post appears.

p.s.s. Thanks Zach!




Thread leading to evolution.
From Brian.

Adaptation is part of the process of MMA,s.

Quote:



There's a big difference between adaptation and evolution,since you brought it up.

Wolves, dogs, coyotes, and all canine's are related. Lions are related to cats and all felines,but none of these were ever a lizard, da- hir.

Take that!!





Your wrong anyhow.

According to evolution, it has to be nearly everything is related,

Even you, Brian, S.O.L and Zach,

The mind boggles!!!

But I am, have to be, must be a different lineage.

Thank who ever, sigh or relief,

I am.



I am a different lineage.

Had me worried there.

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#393476 - 05/09/08 05:48 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
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#393477 - 05/09/08 08:00 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Quote:


Your wrong anyhow.

According to evolution, it has to be nearly everything is related,

Even you, Brian, S.O.L and Zach,

The mind boggles!!!

But I am, have to be, must be a different lineage.

Thank who ever, sigh or relief,

I am.






LMFAO @ cheezy fake-science-philosophy post thing of Judes,
Do you ever proofread the stuff you post man? Most of it is absolute nonsense.

Your insults would be much more effective if they weren't couched by so much meaningless drivel.

Anyway I suppose there's no pint in feeding the troll, but man i'm amazed by the amount of threads Jude um....touches I guess would be the word.

You really have some erm...special talents with words there Jude.

Seriously though, maybe we should bring this back on topic.....


Edited by Zach_Zinn (05/09/08 08:03 PM)

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#393478 - 05/10/08 11:13 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:


LMFAO @ cheezy fake-science-philosophy post thing of Judes,
Do you ever proofread the stuff you post man? Most of it is absolute nonsense.





You say its nonesense? Zach you need to study.
Anyway this isnt the forum for such a debate.
Quote:


Your insults would be much more effective if they weren't couched by so much meaningless drivel.




Cant see any insults but I suppose each to their own.
Quote:


Anyway I suppose there's no pint in feeding the troll,




So we are back to that again. Ok if it makes you feel good carry on. Troll, yeah right!!


Quote:


but man i'm amazed by the amount of threads Jude um....touches I guess would be the word.




What ever Zach.
Quote:


You really have some erm...special talents with words there Jude.
Quote:


pint in feeding the troll, as in pint?






Seriously though, maybe we should bring this back on topic.....




Seen as you mentioned pint and you wish to bring the topic back then; .

One use of the word pint being a pint of beer in this country.
Could be seen as subliminal thoughts coming from you with the words MMA/ SD and pint.

And I consider your last statement as the

best thing you have written so far.

Perhaps you would care to type your expereince of training MMA/ S/D.

How do you see MMA as S/D?

Perhaps we start with say in a bar? Seen as you mentioned pint a few times.
Scenario;

A guy begins to walk over and start an argument with some one who is sitting at say a table with their partner?
What would you say should be the first reaction?
From the people who are at the table ?

Where would MMA training help?

Or indeed not help?

Where would your training help?

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/10/08 11:46 AM)

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#393479 - 05/11/08 11:28 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
Seiken Offline
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Id just like to point out that hitting hard objects with gloves on, and hitting hard objects without them. Causes the same wolffs law process. Your body does not differentiate between the impact, it just feels what is happening. The bones are put under stress, and the body reacts. So makiwara, wall hitting, bag training, etc.. will achieve the same conditioning results. To exclude an arts effectiveness in real life situations based on whether or not bareknuckled punches were trained is s-t-u-p-i-d. Very stupid.

And I really dont think the makiwaras original intention was hardening the knuckles. But for feedback training. IE: Proper alignment, power, speed,control. I remember reading how the makiwara was specifically designed with the taper at the bottom so the spring back would strengthen your punch. Simple physics, every action has an equal an opposite reaction. One of the reasons the fist is held in extension upon hitting the makiwara. This would also help in training a solid base, another aspect many fighters hold higher than conditioned hands.

From personal experience hitting properly will cause less damage to your hands then hitting wrong with the same power. Ive hit people before and after years of makiwara training. It made little to no difference except in my technique alone. And out of all the altercations ive been in, my hands have never broke, or busted open. But it did hurt alot more before training. And the pain IMO was not because lack of makiwara at the time, but my punches were clubbing thuds instead of whipping snaps.

This seems to be the only real fuel to the fire. Broken hands occur almost all the time without gloves etc.. Why does it seem like a broken hand is so common in fights? Probaly because the people with the broken hands goto the hospital, the people without go home and have a beer. They dont get reported. They dont get turned into a mildly wrong statistic. You know, things like, out of 500 fights 312 went to the ground and 294 people broke their right hand. Leading to the conclusion that going to the ground and breaking your hand is more common than not. Really? Only 500? How many were trained? How many conditioned this or that? How many had a bone disease? Inadequate calcium supplies? How many were legally drunk? How many got back up from the ground? Were they trained? Did the hand break on the first punch or the 30th? etc.. All valid questions among many more that should be addressed when dealing with statistics. Personally ive seen no broken hands in bareknuckle fights that occured directly before my eyes, even some damn big people, multiple shots. Nothing broken. Im sure if everyone were to count the fights witnessed that resulted with or without a broken hand, the ladder would be more extensive.

Jude, those karate guys you mentioned. You dont even have to post the link and I already know what hardcore videos you watched to get your idea from. They werent that hardcore. Point fighting at its best, but still light contact. You should learn/gather information from personal experience, not videos, or books. Your eyes and your mind will deceive you. A bloody nose and fat lip do not qualify as hardcore. Dropping a knee on someones skull only to break their trachea and listen to them squeal for breath is hardcore. Getting the back of your head smashed in by the end of a skateboard truck only to be stomped on by 5 guys and destroy your orbital socket is hardcore.

If you look at some of the best power breakers in martial arts today, they condition more than the Okinawans most likely did. And they still break their hands and other various body parts.

Heres another made up statistic for the masses. 90% of the time you should rely on personal experience alone. Why? Because 90% of the people who you get information from are liars, somewhere, somehow, they are making something up. You dont know the KUGBs methods, or Japans Police methods, because in the end.. they are made up of individuals which also have their own training methods and philosophies. The other 10% of the time you are lieing to yourself. Seriously, constantly telling trained martial artists that if they dont condition their hands they are going to break is you fitting into 90% of the liars. Go punch someone bareknuckled in the face and then talk, at least this way you have real information to go buy, not someone elses, like Mike or the KUGB. You should post a video of that. If your worried about losing control and throwing a wild punch that may or may not hit the wall, the ground, or a hard skull, then makiwara training is not needed. Stress management and some form of meditation would be recommended.

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#393480 - 05/21/08 06:08 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: Seiken]
jude33 Offline
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I totaly disagee with everything above. . Perhaps ask your self this question? Why was it trained as a part of karate?

Jude

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#393481 - 05/21/08 07:19 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: Seiken]
MikoReklaw Offline
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I'd like to respectfully disagree with the following points... please remember the following comments are given with all due respect.

Quote:

Id just like to point out that hitting hard objects with gloves on, and hitting hard objects without them. Causes the same wolffs law process. Your body does not differentiate between the impact, it just feels what is happening. The bones are put under stress, and the body reacts. So makiwara, wall hitting, bag training, etc.. will achieve the same conditioning results. To exclude an arts effectiveness in real life situations based on whether or not bareknuckled punches were trained is s-t-u-p-i-d. Very stupid.




You walk down the street in a pair of boxing gloves all the time? The bones may beenefit just as much, but since the impact is spread out [the PURPOSE of gloves], your overall hand is not prepared for that kind of a strike. Also, with gloves on, you feel the strike, once more spread out, so any negative impact from the slight improper angle of the wrist [or similar minor misalignments] is not felt as bad. This is not to say such is guaranteed, but it can be a detriment.

Quote:

If your worried about losing control and throwing a wild punch that may or may not hit the wall, the ground, or a hard skull, then makiwara training is not needed. Stress management and some form of meditation would be recommended.




That is not the only purpose of a makiwara training. Calluses form due to the hardening of the skin... less bloody knuckles. When using bare knuckles, the initial impact of the bones is more focused. It causes more breakdown in the lattice work of the knucles. When that lattice work heals, it has a tighter frame, thus increasing the strength of the bones in question. How is that not good for self defense? You break their jaw and, possibly, NOT break you hand in the process?

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#393482 - 05/21/08 08:42 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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its a good thing you explained clearly and concisely why you disagreed with every thing in seiken's post, now we can have a constructive conversation for once.....
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#393483 - 05/22/08 12:24 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: student_of_life]
BrianS Offline
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Quote:

its a good thing you explained clearly and concisely why you disagreed with every thing in seiken's post, now we can have a constructive conversation for once.....




He is just being argumentative and random without adding constructive feedback or properly explaining himself. Nothing unusual for jude33.
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#393484 - 05/22/08 02:54 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: BrianS]
TheCrab Offline
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*******FILE LOAD ERROR********


Edited by Dedicated1 (05/23/08 09:47 AM)

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#393485 - 05/23/08 10:32 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

its a good thing you explained clearly and concisely why you disagreed with every thing in seiken's post, now we can have a constructive conversation for once.....



Have you, Seiken or Brian ever used a maki wari?
If so please detail how you used it and the progress you had.

Jude

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#393486 - 05/23/08 11:31 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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i've used a mak for a little while. but gave up on it in favor of a heavy bag, focus mits and people.
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#393487 - 05/23/08 11:39 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

i've used a mak for a little while. but gave up on it in favor of a heavy bag, focus mits





Why?

Quote:


and people.




Interesting? People in competition? With gloves?

Jude

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#393488 - 05/24/08 02:24 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

its a good thing you explained clearly and concisely why you disagreed with every thing in seiken's post, now we can have a constructive conversation for once.....



Have you, Seiken or Brian ever used a maki wari?
If so please detail how you used it and the progress you had.

Jude




I might be inclined to share with you my experiences with makiwara and my feelings about them. I will say that I very much agree with Seiken.

jude,

How about YOU answering questions instead of always badgering and asking?
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#393489 - 05/24/08 12:21 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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i personally don't like mak's much, and i think i can get the same benifets from hitting a heavy bag.

"Interesting? People in competition? With gloves?"

when i spar with a friend of mine we use 10 ounce boxing gloves, and when im in class with karate its bare knuckle, but never full contact in class, other wise i'd get kick out.

do you spar?
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#393490 - 05/25/08 12:08 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: student_of_life]
student_of_life Offline
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but you now have me on ignore jude, so i guess i'll never know. oh my,
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#393491 - 05/25/08 02:16 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: student_of_life]
BrianS Offline
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I'm envious.

jude, please add me to your ignore list!!
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#393492 - 05/25/08 06:21 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: BrianS]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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To my mind a heavy bag and a makiwara are for two different things. You can, however, learn the same things you would in Makiwara training with a friend and a reasonably thick phonebook.

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#393493 - 05/27/08 07:16 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
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Jude




I might be inclined to share with you my experiences with makiwara and my feelings about them. I will say that I very much agree with Seiken.

jude,

How about YOU answering questions instead of always badgering and asking?




What question would you like me to answer?

You studied a different strain of goju is that correct?
Not Okinawan based?

Jude

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#393494 - 05/27/08 11:27 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
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jude,
there are several questions in this thread and elsewhere directed at you.

I'm not going to address any of your questions directed at me until you answer them.
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#393495 - 05/27/08 11:59 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

jude,
there are several questions in this thread and elsewhere directed at you.

I'm not going to address any of your questions directed at me until you answer them.




I would rather discuss something with a technical merit than a question such as to who is your teacher routine.
Like reverting certain judo throws back to their true intention. If you would like to discuss that as regards to the ones you practice then fine.
If not thats fine.

Jude.

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#393496 - 05/27/08 12:09 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
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No thanks. I'm not playing your game.
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#393497 - 05/27/08 12:55 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

No thanks. I'm not playing your game.




Game as in judo?

Its ok I understand. By the way are you aware of kata in judo? Might be something to study if competition isnt required. But they are two man kata. Not solo. They even have kata with self defence. Just to keep on topic.


Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/27/08 12:57 PM)

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#393498 - 05/27/08 01:14 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
creative Offline
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lol. Inserting the words "self defence" in to your reply doesn't really keep the post on topic!


Edited by creative (05/27/08 01:15 PM)
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#393499 - 05/27/08 02:24 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: creative]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

lol. Inserting the words "self defence" in to your reply doesn't really keep the post on topic!




MMA and self defence in the title.

Jude


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#393500 - 05/27/08 06:34 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
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Yes, I am aware of that.

What is your mma setting like? Do you spar often? What are your rules/limitations?
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#393501 - 05/27/08 08:31 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: BrianS]
student_of_life Offline
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brain, have we learned nothing?
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#393502 - 05/27/08 09:39 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
Seiken Offline
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Quote:

I totaly disagee with everything above. . Perhaps ask your self this question? Why was it trained as a part of karate?

Jude




Sorry I hadnt replied sooner, I forgot about this thread. But I do believe I already answered via my last post.

As for your other question. Yes I have trained with a makiwara. Several different types at different times for different reasons, but the standard ground makiwara we are talking about is what im referencing. It was effective in the areas I already stated, it made no difference as far as actual conditioning went and the relation to my hand being broken.. im sure my bones have changed, but they didnt break when I punched people before.

Currently I train a wall makiwara for conditioning, and fun. I enjoy hitting things, I cant have a heavy bag hanging in my living room anymore so its convenient. I also dont hit it nearly as hard as traditional makiwara.

I can say I continued to receive the same benefits from a heavy bag, but my initial technique was fostered on a makiwara which was much less forgiving of mistakes.

I really really really enjoy makiwara training. And think its extremely effective. My point is being missed completely. Conditioning, more specifically conditioning in regards to makiwara training, IMVHO is the last thing people should be concerned about when it comes to breaking your hand. And when it comes to broken hands in fights, there are way too many factors to just single out bareknuckle conditioning.

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#393503 - 05/27/08 09:49 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: student_of_life]
BrianS Offline
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Yes,we have learned. I still ponder why everyone answers jude's questions,yet he hasn't answered one?
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#393504 - 05/27/08 11:37 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: BrianS]
Stormdragon Offline
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Yo Jude-Tag your it! Finally someone else is getting all the flak.
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#393505 - 05/28/08 06:02 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Yes, I am aware of that.

What is your mma setting like?





Very good. In a sports centre now. Put out the mats,
Quote:


you spar often?




We roll a fair bit. Do stand up grappling a fair bit.
Combine the two a fair bit.
Dont go to town on the striking/ kicking to much as most have day jobs.
Quote:



What are your rules/limitations?



Tapping out, normal MMA techniques, nothing dodgy.

Brians quote
Quote:


No thanks. I'm not playing your game.





If your not playing the game then why are you asking?
Brian sit back take some time to heal then train some more.
Spend the time watching judo. Work your forearms and upper body on the weights.

Time better spent training

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/28/08 06:10 AM)

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#393506 - 05/28/08 06:06 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: Seiken]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Currently I train a wall makiwara for conditioning, and fun. I enjoy hitting things, I cant have a heavy bag hanging in my living room anymore so its convenient. I also dont hit it nearly as hard as traditional makiwara.

I can say I continued to receive the same benefits from a heavy bag, but my initial technique was fostered on a makiwara which was much less forgiving of mistakes.

I really really really enjoy makiwara training. And think its extremely effective.







Good man excellent

Jude

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#393507 - 05/28/08 06:16 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: Stormdragon]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Yo Jude-Tag your it! Finally someone else is getting all the flak.




Yeah well. Gives them something to do while they are sitting around on the computer. Anyway speak soon just watching Hagler boxing.

There is a thought?
Maybe I should ask them how they would describe Haglers defence? See if they know anything about boxing?

Jude

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#393508 - 05/28/08 10:10 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
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Couldn't be any more vague with your answers jude?
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#393509 - 05/28/08 10:23 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: BrianS]
JKogas Offline
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This thread is amazing. It's become so splintered from the original topic that it barely has anything left to do with it.

The thread was, MMA as Self-Defense. Now we're discussing makiwara training. That's not a bad topic by itself, so why include it in an MMA discussion?

And where are the mods of this forum? Isn't it the job of the mods to steer this topic back on course or to shut it down once it's veered so far away? Is that one of the primary reasons why forums like this begin to blow?

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#393510 - 05/28/08 10:27 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: JKogas]
BrianS Offline
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Are you volunteering to restore order?

Where are the mods of alot of topics here?

I only see two or three mods doing any moderating at all! Much less admin, doh!!

But, without help and support from the site owner,whatcha gonna do?
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#393511 - 05/28/08 11:52 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: JKogas]
Seiken Offline
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Quote:

This thread is amazing. It's become so splintered from the original topic that it barely has anything left to do with it.

The thread was, MMA as Self-Defense. Now we're discussing makiwara training. That's not a bad topic by itself, so why include it in an MMA discussion?

And where are the mods of this forum? Isn't it the job of the mods to steer this topic back on course or to shut it down once it's veered so far away? Is that one of the primary reasons why forums like this begin to blow?




Its pretty relevant. It came by way of discussing gloved punching VS non gloved punching. Which weighs on the minds of some in regards to MMA and self defense applicability I guess.

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#393512 - 05/28/08 12:08 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: Seiken]
JKogas Offline
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Seiken,

I realize the relevancy. Perhaps I'm just bitching and complaining. I'm not always right about things, but is this thread progressing thought here or just stumbling about blindly? Maybe that's the best route, don't know. Just questioning.

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#393513 - 05/28/08 02:39 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Couldn't be any more vague with your answers jude?




Pm's are a wonderfull thing Brian. Get a better conversation via them sometimes. More in depth . At least people then go in to technical things such as defensive boxing. Or describe practical self defences in given situations.

Jude

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#393514 - 05/28/08 02:47 PM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: JKogas]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Seiken,

I realize the relevancy. Perhaps I'm just bitching and complaining. I'm not always right about things, but is this thread progressing thought here or just stumbling about blindly? Maybe that's the best route, don't know. Just questioning.




Hi John
The thread its just stumbling along I think.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (05/28/08 02:48 PM)

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#393515 - 05/29/08 02:26 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: jude33]
TheCrab Offline
Scum
Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 467
Loc: QLD Australia
Quote:

Hi John
The thread its just stumbling along I think







Edited by Dedicated1 (05/29/08 08:10 AM)

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#393516 - 05/29/08 08:12 AM Re: MMA as Self-Defense? [Re: BrianS]
Dedicated1 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 399
Loc: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
Your wish has been granted!
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If your in a "Fair Fight", your tactics suck.

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