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#392925 - 05/13/08 11:12 PM Re: New Poomsae [Re: ITFunity]
TKD_X Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
it's a little underexpectant (*hopes that's a real word*) of 40+ martial artists. many martial artists who reach the level at which these forms are performed and are over 40 are in good enough shape to do both forms. they should raise the age restriction if there must be one. either that or allow it to be at the discretion of the student. i would be a little ticked off if someone told me i couldn't do a form due to my age. do any of you think the official who is responsible for adding a new form (i'm referencing bikak here)to the WTF syllabus is under 40? i wouldn't be surprised if he were a 60 year old 7th or higher dan who is perfectly capable of doing a tornado kick, jump 360 back kick, and flying side kicks.
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#392926 - 05/14/08 08:43 AM Re: New Poomsae [Re: Seiken]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
"Did you watch the video? Not many young people can even do the techniques in the under 40 poomse,"

Whether anyone can or can't perform a kata is up to the individual and his training. If he can he should do the Kata, if he can't he shouldn't. To be told by an organization that he can't do a Kata (either in training or competition) is garbage perpetuated by the garbage sellers.

"Its competition poomse and contains many high risk techniques. I dont see too many mainstream karate katas that contain what Bikak does either. Unless your talking XMA."

In that case I suggest you see the rotating jumps that are performed in Unsu and Kanku Sho from the Shotokan system. I perform both of these Kata's in competition and am over 40.

"Ya know, featherweights dont fight for the heavyweight title for a reason,"

In karate tournaments as well as being weight divisions there are also open divisions where anyone of any weight can compete.

"no punching to the face in sparring for a reason. Rules. Commonality."

No, to dilute TKD from a MA to a sport and to make it different enough from boxing to get accepted into the Olympics.

"I actually like the fact that they take into consideration the millions of people practicing and competing, and the fact that eventually these people will get old, and might still want to compete."

If you consider 40 old, I will be pleased to give you an attitude adjustment. At 52 I still compete regularly in 19-35 age divisions. Some people I compete against wish I would go into the "old" divisions, but it isn't out of concern for me.

"But not have the youth and time to do what they once could. Of course there are exceptions, but were talking worldwide practices here... a common ground for competition. An advanced poomse for young people which highlights some of the unique TKD kicking techniques while retaining a nice tradtional flavor, and a moderately difficult poomse for the aging martial artist."

Total sanctimonious Bull$hit.

"I think they are so daring because, well.. they created the poomse. They have a right to tell us what its for. Doesnt mean we have to follow it.. im learning hanryu myself. But if your entering poomse competition a common form to judge on is what is needed."

Again garbage. The association are again trying to dilute what they practice so it is available to the widest market, thus increasing their profits. It's a business decision, plain and simple.


If this is what the Kukkiwon is about and proposing, the TKD fraternity should have the balls to stand up and shout NOOOOOOOO. And you wonder why TKD is held in such low regard by some.
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#392927 - 05/14/08 10:02 AM Re: New Poomsae [Re: TKD_X]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

do any of you think the official who is responsible for adding a new form (i'm referencing bikak here)to the WTF syllabus is under 40? i wouldn't be surprised if he were a 60 year old 7th or higher dan who is perfectly capable of doing a tornado kick, jump 360 back kick, and flying side kicks.




While I have seen some TKD pioneers, now grandmasters, around 70 years of age, still do perfect splits & high twisting kicks (to the rear, behind their head), these are IMHO the exceptions. They were super talented military men with MA experience that formed original TKD. However they are the exception. We must remember that TKD is for all ages, sizes & shapes. However that does not mean the outcome or ability levels will be or should be the same. I have seena 60+ year old person win a gold medal in the Veterans WCs performing TongIl. While it was so nice to watch, this 6th degree did not do it as well as GM Choi Jung Hwa, his junior in age, but senior in rank, did on the CD Rom.

I don't see the need for seperate patterns, as TKD is an individual journey. I do Juche, by far the hardest pattern I ever did. I can't do it well & I struggle each time, but I do it & don't expect to beat some hot shot talented & younger 2nd degrees. Nor is that even in my thought process. I also think I could teach them all something that would help them perform it better, especially the 3 hardest techniques!

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#392928 - 05/14/08 10:05 AM Re: New Poomsae [Re: JohnL]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
Quote:

If you consider 40 old, I will be pleased to give you an attitude adjustment. At 52 I still compete regularly in 19-35 age divisions. Some people I compete against wish I would go into the "old" divisions, but it isn't out of concern for me.




Good point & worth repeating! TKD is an individual journey of self improvement.

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#392929 - 05/16/08 01:02 PM Re: New Poomsae [Re: ITFunity]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
JohnL, Everyone who doesnt do something the way you want or expect them to is not doing it for plain marketing. Your POV anyone in a power position who does something for their art is doing it for marketing. Is that the case? If not, what determined that?

With the millions of people already practicing im sure these two forms are going to be drawing in millions more right? Cause poomse always has been the main attraction for TKD to the public right?

As for age, 40+ is old, 40+ includes 90 year olds too ya know , there is a + for a reason, and if you happen to be able to do something not EVERYONE can they shouldnt have to live up to YOUR expectations. Are you really that upset about a poomse made for competition with age requirements? Its a competition, with a common poomse , with rules and age divisions. And somehow you think because you can do the form you should be allowed to no matter what. Good sportsman you are.

The TKD governing bodies have to create common ground for millions to be able to compete on. Olympic level competition. They have to worry about things you JohnL, dont have to, and seem to not be able to even take into consideration. Your right, its total sanctimonious [censored].


And face punching not allowed, was to water down the MA to a sport? Its the sparring practice, only one aspect of TKD btw, and has rules for people to compete on, you know, commonality. Pretty much the same as every other sporting competition and martial art, whats your style like? Since this is martial arts, people think they own everything. Can I use a gun? How about an Axe? When was the last time you played a board game but used different rules than the person you were playing? How did that work out for you? Better yet, since TKD isnt your thing how about entering a Kyokushin comp. and only strike the face, let me know how that goes.


As for the jumps in kusanku and unsu. Is this really what your comparing to Bikak? Nice try, but that doesnt cut the cake. Flying side kick, triple side kick, jump roundhouse, jump spinning back kick, jump spinning roundhouse, spinning hook kick... if you really want to give it a go just upload a video of someone 40+ doing Bikak at competition level.

And JohnL, im trying to stay within context of the poomse and their given relation to TKD. As for being held in low regards, thats mainly by people looking in from the outside. TKD is not the only politically driven martial art, with odd decisions and 10year old grandmasters. I personally dont care what anyone ever thinks of me, I rather people think I suck and cant fight anyway. And much of what is going on now is because the TKD people have spoken up, a new president was elected and has promised many new reforms regarding TKD, and has already shown that it will most definitely happen. On that note, much of what we know factually about these new poomse is speculation. But yea, I do agree with you like I said before, just not on every detail of the situation.

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#392930 - 05/16/08 01:13 PM Re: New Poomsae [Re: ITFunity]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Quote:

Quote:

If you consider 40 old, I will be pleased to give you an attitude adjustment. At 52 I still compete regularly in 19-35 age divisions. Some people I compete against wish I would go into the "old" divisions, but it isn't out of concern for me.




Good point & worth repeating! TKD is an individual journey of self improvement.




Pretty much the basis for my point.

Individual, meaning not everyone can do or should have to do because someone else can do. Its easy to regulate yourself, either you can or cant do it. And if you can you choose whether you do or dont. If you cant, you dont. You only have to worry about yourself .

So then how does a governing body regulate millions of people on something so individual in competition? I believe these poomse are part of the answer.

I think it has very little to do with marketing and more to do with making the already millions of people practicing happy, the current status of taegeuk and yudanja forms in competition is horrible, this fixes many of those issues and can almost replace them altogether for some people. WITHOUT changing the individual teaching practices of ANY dojang. Marketing? No. Carrying out reforms to improve TKD quality? Yes. Some people do care about their art, contrary to what some think.


Edited by Seiken (05/16/08 01:14 PM)

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#392931 - 05/16/08 01:19 PM Re: New Poomsae [Re: JohnL]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:


Again garbage. The association are again trying to dilute what they practice so it is available to the widest market, thus increasing their profits. It's a business decision, plain and simple.





Can't see how this decision does that. I actually disagree with prescribing different patterns for different age groups, but I can't see how the choice can be made for financial reasons.

Quote:


If you consider 40 old, I will be pleased to give you an attitude adjustment. At 52 I still compete regularly in 19-35 age divisions. Some people I compete against wish I would go into the "old" divisions, but it isn't out of concern for me.




40 IS old if you look at the usual ages of athletes in both combat sports and other sports. Footballers generally retire in their mid 30s, and basketball players in their late 30s. In boxing, there aren't many who go beyond 35 successfully. There are exceptions in all sports of course- Randy Couture is still fighting at 40 something, but don't think for a minute that people don't notice his age.

Should you be able to compete in the normal division if you want to, sure; but don't criticise others because their bodies can no longer handle it and they seek competition in a more equal division. Afterall, it's better than just giving up isn't it?

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#392932 - 05/16/08 01:30 PM Re: New Poomsae [Re: Seiken]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Quote:

Are you really that upset about a poomse made for competition with age requirements? Its a competition, with a common poomse , with rules and age divisions. And somehow you think because you can do the form you should be allowed to no matter what. Good sportsman you are.





I find it pretty stupid to be honest. In the ITF there are 3 patterns at each black belt level for the first few dans. This gives choice to the person about which pattern they want to do. More athletic competitors find Gae-Baek to be most impressive in cometition, but there are others who prefer to perform the other two because they like them or because they are particularly good at certain aspects from them. The point is, they have a choice! If a pattern is in the syllabus then someone should have the choice to perform it badly!

Sometimes, a 40+ guy will come along and perform a very difficult pattern very well, blowing his competition, who have chosen a less aethetic pattern, out of the water. Well done him! We are not all equal in competition- you can control some things like experience or weight categories in sparring, but after a certain point it becomes absurd. Controlling which patterns competitors are allowed to perform because some may not be athletic enough anymore is crazy, afterall, isn't conditioning a major factor in martial arts. Those with better conditioning should be celebrated, not told that they should lower their standards to allow others a chance.

Quote:



And face punching not allowed, was to water down the MA to a sport? Its the sparring practice, only one aspect of TKD btw, and has rules for people to compete on, you know, commonality. Pretty much the same as every other sporting competition and martial art, whats your style like?




Commonality should not lead to the watering down of sparring rules. No punching to the face in my opinion is a rule that has no grounding in common sense. However, there are better places to discuss that outside of this thread.

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#392933 - 05/16/08 01:48 PM Re: New Poomsae [Re: TKD_X]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Quote:

it's a little underexpectant (*hopes that's a real word*) of 40+ martial artists. many martial artists who reach the level at which these forms are performed and are over 40 are in good enough shape to do both forms. they should raise the age restriction if there must be one. either that or allow it to be at the discretion of the student. i would be a little ticked off if someone told me i couldn't do a form due to my age. do any of you think the official who is responsible for adding a new form (i'm referencing bikak here)to the WTF syllabus is under 40? i wouldn't be surprised if he were a 60 year old 7th or higher dan who is perfectly capable of doing a tornado kick, jump 360 back kick, and flying side kicks.




Where is anyone saying someone cant do the form because of their age? On that note, do you expect your father or grandfather to do Bikak? How about your mother and grandmother? Really, when they sign up for the competition what do YOU expect them to be able to do? Bikak or Hanryu? Some might even say Hanryu would be expecting a bit much. Now consider were talking MILLIONS of people who practice the art. Not every 40+ is Randy Couture or JohnL for that matter. And im sure a majority of the under 40 competitors wont be competing when Bikak is introduced, because they wont be able to do it.

All they are doing is regulating poomse for competition that has age divisions. You dont represent all under 40 martial artists do you? How about if a poomse was created with your limitations in mind. Would this be representative of millions of people practicing the same art? Now you understand the difficulty the creators went through.

You and JohnL are only fostering insecurities you have about age and what others think of that. While completely missing the point. Talking about expectations, you guys expect everyone else to compete based on what you think they should be able to do, which is only rooted in what you have done or think you can or will do.

In the end, who has the right to tell anyone what the poomse is intended for? The creators.

And if anyone said it was for something else they would be 100% wrong. No matter how right some of the points they make are. Its quite simple.

The equivalent is telling a songwriter the song was written for you as they are telling you it was written for someone else. Many medical professionals would deem you delusional and possibly psychotic.

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#392934 - 05/16/08 01:49 PM Re: New Poomsae [Re: Supremor]
TKD_X Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
did a person younger than 40 yrs old create bikak? if that's the case they're allowed to make that a <40 form. however that seems doubtful. what dan was this form supposed to fall under? it seems to me that this is more difficult than the higher poomse in the WTF curriculum.
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