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#392915 - 05/09/08 08:34 AM Re: New Poomsae [Re: Seiken]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
Quote:

(Bikak and Hanryu, im unsure as of now if anymore have been devised. Created in collaboration with Kukkiwon, WTF, and KTA. For standardized TKD in competition,

Bikak for under 40 TKD
Hanryu for over 40 TKD

The poomsae for under 40 is quite difficult and contains many advanced techniques, some good continuous movements that can develop good hand skills. The over 40 poomsae is great for keeping the elders in shape .... medium in length, basic high kicks and advanced hand techniques, some of the best IMO for self defense use.





Hey

I rarely visit the TKD section of the forum but noticed this thread.

Kata determined by the age of the practitioner.

Complete BS!!!!

How dare someone do this.

I practice a mainstream style of Karate, undertake ALL of the Kata, and am not under 40. If someone told me that they had designed a Kata for me because of my age, I'd take them out and slap them around for about a week!!!!
_________________________
John L

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#392916 - 05/09/08 02:46 PM Re: New Poomsae [Re: JohnL]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Quote:

Quote:

(Bikak and Hanryu, im unsure as of now if anymore have been devised. Created in collaboration with Kukkiwon, WTF, and KTA. For standardized TKD in competition,

Bikak for under 40 TKD
Hanryu for over 40 TKD

The poomsae for under 40 is quite difficult and contains many advanced techniques, some good continuous movements that can develop good hand skills. The over 40 poomsae is great for keeping the elders in shape .... medium in length, basic high kicks and advanced hand techniques, some of the best IMO for self defense use.





Hey

I rarely visit the TKD section of the forum but noticed this thread.

Kata determined by the age of the practitioner.

Complete BS!!!!

How dare someone do this.

I practice a mainstream style of Karate, undertake ALL of the Kata, and am not under 40. If someone told me that they had designed a Kata for me because of my age, I'd take them out and slap them around for about a week!!!!




Did you watch the video? Not many young people can even do the techniques in the under 40 poomse, the reason its for under 40 is completely obvious. Its competition poomse and contains many high risk techniques. I dont see too many mainstream karate katas that contain what Bikak does either. Unless your talking XMA.

They are not telling you not to learn both of them. Its a competition setting. Ya know, featherweights dont fight for the heavyweight title for a reason, no punching to the face in sparring for a reason. Rules. Commonality.

I actually like the fact that they take into consideration the millions of people practicing and competing, and the fact that eventually these people will get old, and might still want to compete. But not have the youth and time to do what they once could. Of course there are exceptions, but were talking worldwide practices here... a common ground for competition. An advanced poomse for young people which highlights some of the unique TKD kicking techniques while retaining a nice tradtional flavor, and a moderately difficult poomse for the aging martial artist.

I think they are so daring because, well.. they created the poomse. They have a right to tell us what its for. Doesnt mean we have to follow it.. im learning hanryu myself. But if your entering poomse competition a common form to judge on is what is needed.

Unless you harbor insecurities about your age. I see no reason in getting upset over age determined poomse. Do you get upset at your shoe size too? I see lots of companies making shoes based on age AND foot size.

IMO This is seen all over though. A TKD guy sees a kempo guy low block, the TKD guys thinks he owns the low block... so the kempo guy is clearly doing it wrong. But the karate guy who really thinks he owns the low block sees them both doing it wrong, because they are blocking instead of locking with the block. All of them are wrong, because they think they own the movement. Poomse is no different, with the exception that it is a creation, so someone really does own it, and the maker is the only one to truly determine the intention. In this case, age.

I understand where your coming from though JohnL, not trying to attack you. Im 100% playing the devils advocate card here, I tend to agree with you. Considering the KukkiTKD is a product as much as a martial art, the user determines the products worth and anyone should be able to buy it, unless its alcohol

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#392917 - 05/09/08 10:41 PM Re: New Poomsae [Re: Seiken]
TKD_X Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
the individual should have a choice. if you are 60 and can do bikak, you're a beast and deserve to.
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#392918 - 05/10/08 04:22 PM Re: New Poomsae [Re: TKD_X]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Quote:

the individual should have a choice. if you are 60 and can do bikak, you're a beast and deserve to.




So a 14 year old in the JR division should be allowed to compete in the adults division because hes a beast at sparring and deserves to? Anyone can learn the forms.

Competition for forms has rules and regulations. If the forms were created by the kukkiwon for competition in age specific divisions then why should someone be allowed to because they can?

I can punch to the face. But I dont in TKD sparring. Its against the rules. See how that works?

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#392919 - 05/10/08 04:53 PM Re: New Poomsae [Re: Seiken]
TKD_X Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
hmmm interesting point of view. this could be due to my lack of knowledge for WTF forms competition. it's very possible that i'm just unfamiliar with the system. i practice forms for the sake of the art not for the sake of competition. if you are over 40 and have the physical ability to do bikak, are you not allowed to practice it? the tournament's i participate in are usually attended by more than just one style. for instance my school would be there as would some local tang soo do schools. the forms aren't the same for everyone. that makes it interesting. it seems silly to me that a 10 person division would all have to do the same form. is that how WTF competition works?
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Are you ok!?!? It was an accident! No really! I promise!

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#392920 - 05/11/08 09:33 AM Re: New Poomsae [Re: TKD_X]
jeff_andle Offline
Member

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 241
Loc: Falmouth, Maine USA
Quote:

hmmm interesting point of view. this could be due to my lack of knowledge for WTF forms competition. it's very possible that i'm just unfamiliar with the system. i practice forms for the sake of the art not for the sake of competition. if you are over 40 and have the physical ability to do bikak, are you not allowed to practice it? the tournament's i participate in are usually attended by more than just one style. for instance my school would be there as would some local tang soo do schools. the forms aren't the same for everyone. that makes it interesting. it seems silly to me that a 10 person division would all have to do the same form. is that how WTF competition works?




Even in closed style ATA the 2nd & 3rd dan rings are allowed to perform 1st dan forms, etc. And, while I would not perform bikak well, I could perform it at 45. A few of the kicks would be quite close to sea level and singularly unimpressive.
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sam dan Songham Taekwondo The learning has just begun...

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#392921 - 05/11/08 03:23 PM Re: New Poomsae [Re: TKD_X]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Quote:

hmmm interesting point of view. this could be due to my lack of knowledge for WTF forms competition. it's very possible that i'm just unfamiliar with the system. i practice forms for the sake of the art not for the sake of competition. if you are over 40 and have the physical ability to do bikak, are you not allowed to practice it? the tournament's i participate in are usually attended by more than just one style. for instance my school would be there as would some local tang soo do schools. the forms aren't the same for everyone. that makes it interesting. it seems silly to me that a 10 person division would all have to do the same form. is that how WTF competition works?




Im just going by what has been said.

It seems to be the direction they are going in. So many schools have their differences in the other forms that its unfair when competing, because they seemingly judge on a specific way the form should be done. Its not them doing it wrong, its them doing what they are taught. And unless you are taught by that judge, or get lucky. Chances are your getting a low mark.

These forms would be universal in their performance because thats what they are intended for. That is how they are being introduced to the schools. And within that regards, age divisions come into play, because thats what they are intended for also. Theres no reason in forcing the 40+ group to break their hip doing a jump spinning kick just because someone else is a beast. Its unfair and out of reason. Maybe when you feel the arthritis later you will understand better.

Its not a matter of being able to do it or not. Thats beyond the point. Anyone can do anything they want. But your not going to be entering an age specific division doing a form not intended for your age group because you can. Its a competition. You dont enter a piano competition with a saxophone for much the same reason.

Everyone always talks about the art aspect. Would you tell Picasso his paintings were for swatting flies and that its [censored] he intended them for viewing pleasure? Creators of the forms are artists, so telling them its [censored] for intending it for 40+ is disrespectful, and wrong. Of course, once you buy the item you can what you want. But its not rooted in truth. No one would argue my shoes are for me to put on my feet, but they sure as hell work good for squishy little bugs. But telling the shoemaker its BS that your supposed to wear the shoes, because you can squash things with it is wrong.

Music, dance, art. Its all the same. No one owns notes or chords, or colors, or body movement. But once it has been engineered into a cohesive unit. IE: A song, A painting, A form. Someone does own it.

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#392922 - 05/12/08 10:01 AM Re: New Poomsae [Re: TKD_X]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
I'm just posting my thoughts without having viewed the whole thread.

I think these two patterns are excellent. They look like a lot of fun and they make great training. A preliminary examination does imply primarily punch and kick fighting; a huge surprise in the way of the foot and fist!
The notion that a person needs anything else to fight is as much a product of crowd-following bandwagonism as the idea that twin blocks are for use against two opponents.

These forms represent a large degree of what WTF Taekwondo is and are a step towards what I was talking about in the "Should they re-invent their forms" thread.

Personally I would like to see more of the Hapkido and military taekwondo influence that showcases more of what TKD encapsulates consolodated into the advanced forms, and in terms of the effectiveness of raw taekwondo I would like to see the development of forms that showcase the distance controlling punch-kick martial art through simple but effective practical techniques and movements. Forms like this would be for beginners, but self defense is exactly that, beginners MA.

I hope they take this idea and run with it.
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It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#392923 - 05/12/08 09:36 PM Re: New Poomsae [Re: Shonuff]
TKD_X Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/24/08
Posts: 786
Loc: HERE
seems that these forms were intended for a style of competition that i am not accustomed to.
_________________________
Are you ok!?!? It was an accident! No really! I promise!

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#392924 - 05/13/08 10:27 AM Re: New Poomsae [Re: TKD_X]
ITFunity Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/15/06
Posts: 2053
As many may know, the Chang Hon system has 24 patterns. In the early 80s Kodang Tul was replaced by Juche Tul. Many will say that was political, but it did introduce new techniques previoulsy not encompassed by the Tuls. Some Chang Hon schools never adopted Juche & some give the option for older students to do Kodang in lieu of Juche.

One of the ITFs, (NK) has started a Veterans WCs. They will be having the 3rd one this September in conjunction with the Junior WCs. It has been discussed to move this event from the Jr WCs venue, as it is growing in popularity. One solution is to move it into the Int. MA Games.

In any event, they, the veterans, age groups of 40-40, 50-59 & 60+, do the same Tuls. This is like the touraments that have senior divisions. At most of these venues, an adult can compete in the younger or adult categories, but not the other way around.

My gut tells me that I don't like the different patterns for different age groups. The way I look at it, TKD is for all. That is the way IMHO it should be. However, just because it is for all, doesn't mean the results will be the same or should be the same for all. I know 1st hand, as I am not blessed with physical talent. However in the true sense of the MA of TKD, I am not competing against anyone else (outside of tournament competition), just myself. I only care if I get better myself, not that I am or get better than you. So I don't see the need for seperate Tuls. In fact, I think it goes against the grain of what traditional TKD is about. JMHO

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