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#392324 - 05/05/08 03:40 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: jude33]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
good idea Jude, and cross training is so very traditional anyhow
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#392325 - 05/05/08 04:14 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
there are so many arts and dojo's called "karate" now a days its hard to keep track of whats practiced by karate-ka in general. an example would be pat mcarthy's group, how many other karate dojo's have you seen pratice the ground kicking (ne-keri) drills they do?. i love the stuff i see thoes guys doing.

i don't think that "gaps" were left in karate, more like the own's is on us to fill our own gaps. that seems to be the only real "tradition".
_________________________
its not supposed to make sense

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#392326 - 05/05/08 04:26 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: shoshinkan]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

for me this thread is done, I will keep one eye open and of course keep searching but to argue with people like Ed is pointless as their logic is correct on this matter, as far as I can see.




Well, Ed does say that goju has stand up grappling, however, you seem to believe that "karatedo" does not and have added it to yours. And that stand up grappling is not a derivative of crosstraining, however, any other karate other than his goju that has grappling is a result of crosstraining. Ed also believes that I believe what I believe to sell DVDs. As a matter of fact Ed believes that PM fabricated much of his translations and research to promote his own business of hawking DVDs and books and seminars; the same PM from whom you draw inspiration. Is this Ed's logically correct thinking? I was pretty much done with this thread, but Ed has put out just as much crap as anyone else on these groundfighting threads. Don't give him any more or less credit than anyone else.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#392327 - 05/05/08 06:16 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
hi Marcel,

my point is centered around effective methods of standup wrestling training methods, they are not in any karatedo system I have seen, heard of or been told about from a lineage perspective.

in relation to Ed and McCarthy Sensei - they are big tough guys and have their own thoughts, research and experience and also there own voices so I shall step aside on that.

I also by the way agree with much of what you beleive to be true, just not the ground game element found within kata, and the lineage element of effective wrestling techniques being passed from Okinawa.

I also step aside from personal pointless battles online these days, having had my fun with Paul Hart and Graystain...........

this subject has got to personal for me with several online friends (ie you, Ed, Brian, Matt etc etc) so I am withdrawing form the debate until I find or see something worth continuing to discuss.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#392328 - 05/05/08 08:12 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: shoshinkan]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Well said Jim!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#392329 - 05/06/08 02:10 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772

Quote:

Ed also believes that I believe what I believe to sell DVDs.


you believe you will sell DVD's? whatever floats your boat. -doesn't matter what I believe, people do what they want.


Quote:

As a matter of fact Ed believes that PM fabricated much of his translations and research to promote his own business of hawking DVDs and books and seminars;



not at all. In fact, I've always said good things about PM's work. People are allowed to disagree on particular points without taking it personal and trashing everything else. So I disagree with some on the subject of tegumi and/or commercialization, no big deal. I put PM's quote in his own words right there. He clearly states that he uses the term 'tegumi' to describe HIS own set of drills - NOT as a description of the historical folk wrestling. So you tell me what the logical conclusion is. Someone uses a historical term to describe a modern interpretation of it, is using the historical term for what purpose exactly? Would it have sold as well if he called it: "Pat's wrestling drills" ? Would a chapter title in a Karate book sound better to use 'Sumo masters' or 'Tegumi masters'? which is more accurate vs. which sounds better?


besides, as you said, no extra weight need be added to anyone's posts here - this is all just a collection of disembodied opinions....there is no *I* here.


You seem to get very defensive and take disagreements personal. You should be more aware of that and try to control it.

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#392330 - 05/06/08 02:44 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

You seem to get very defensive and take disagreements personal. You should be more aware of that and try to control it.




Nothing personal, I'm just not PC. I don't tip toe so as not to step on the toes of others. I don't post to be liked or for others to think I'm a swell guy. Maybe you are not accustomed to people relating to you in this manner, I don't know. If I took things personally and was mad you would know it, you would not have to guess and assume it. Maybe you should be aware of this and try to control those assumptions.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#392331 - 05/06/08 03:11 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: shoshinkan]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Quote:

hi Marcel,

my point is centered around effective methods of standup wrestling training methods, they are not in any karatedo system I have seen, heard of or been told about from a lineage perspective.






In that regards though, training methods can be different and achieve the same results/techniques. Hikite and close in fighting alone would make alot of applied Karate look like standup wrestling. Which to the outside observer, would be related directly to what they know. In this case, wrestling. So from that persepctive mind any standup wrestling done by a karateka isnt karate but wrestling. And they relate the skills to training methods which they were exposed.

Much of the principles wrestling relies on, base, posture, hip control & movement. Are some of the most important things in Karate as well. Good base alone will keep you on your feet.

Wrestling also has different goals attached to it depending on where it comes from, and why its being used. Sport wrestling looks different than pro wrestling, catch wrestling looks much different than sumo wrestling, sumo looks nothing like shootwrestling. And all of the above would look completely different if your life was on the line.

Karates wrestling and striking IMO is about killing. My goals as a martial artist is self preservation, and the quickest way to my attackers not so glorious outcome. But, if given rules, other goals, even basic striking Karate looks much different IE: Sport karate, Full contact karate like Sabaki, Pro Karate. etc.. And any aspect of Karate wrestling cease to exist.

Honestly, I dont have any answer other than karate & kata have as many uses as eyes which look upon them.

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#392332 - 05/06/08 03:38 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:


Nothing personal, I'm just not PC.




Note: this is a tangential point not directed at anyone in particular.

I've always felt that anti political correctness is just people looking for an excuse to be lazy.
There is no opinion however offensive that cannot, with a bit of consideration, be phrased in a civilised way.

It is my personal feeling that if one does not have the wits or intelligence to be polite and inoffensive when speaking then they should not be allowed to speak at all.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#392333 - 05/06/08 04:12 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Seiken]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Seiken,

please don't misunderstand me, I see a huge range of locks, trips, throws, takedowns, strangles, pokes and shunts in classical kata (it's okinawan presented chin-na),

what I don't see is an effective method of partner work to develop those skills to be applicabile in a stand up wrestling format,

and ultimatly to assist the deployment of all the above stated methods and of course all the strikes, kicks, blocks etc etc in relaity.

Goju is nearer than the rest of the pack but even their excersise set and 2 man work is not nearly enough similair to known wrestling methods, used all over the world in different basic wrestling (often historical) arts and traditions, hence my personal development of what I choose to call 'tegumi' practice.
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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