FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 35 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
old1, Leonar, ManLar, Vimido, raya
22925 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
futsaowingchun 3
Ronin1966 3
GojuRyuboy13 2
cxt 1
ergees 1
October
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
New Topics
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
09/30/14 12:10 AM
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
09/25/14 08:50 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by Leo_E_49
01/24/12 02:58 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by
05/13/07 08:02 AM
Recent Posts
Living a full life violence free...
by GojuRyuboy13
10/22/14 07:20 AM
The Classic Pak Sao drill
by futsaowingchun
10/20/14 10:32 AM
Leo's Judo Journal
by swordy
10/11/14 09:21 AM
The Karate punch
by Ronin1966
10/09/14 03:16 PM
wing chun kicks and knees
by futsaowingchun
10/09/14 12:55 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ronin1966
10/08/14 09:22 PM
2014 European Championships Juniors: the Gallery
by ergees
10/05/14 10:56 AM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by AndyLA
10/04/14 10:20 AM
Tan,Bong,Fuk & Wu Sao
by futsaowingchun
09/30/14 12:10 AM
Forum Stats
22925 Members
36 Forums
35582 Topics
432510 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 18 of 25 < 1 2 ... 16 17 18 19 20 ... 24 25 >
Topic Options
#392274 - 04/29/08 09:09 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Huh. Interesting. I would never consider it 'cross training' if trained in 2 seperate karate styles. Not sure if this is 'karate centric' POV or not.




IMO if you train in one style,then another, you are cross training. Even if both the styles are karate.

Goju and Kempo= crosstraining
Shotokan and Marcelbayashi ryu = crosstraining
ATA TKD and ITF tkd = crosstraining




Interesting. Harlan gets the IMO response and I get the you are simply being dishonest response. Very interesting.




I have no use to argue with dishonest people.

I was just offering harlan my opinion.
The latter added in just shows my true feelings about you and your outlandish claims.

Homeskillet.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#392275 - 04/29/08 09:17 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Seiken]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


If someone can distinguish without a doubt the specific techniques of the styles proven to influence Karate, then the arguement could be settled. Its not impossible, especially with a joint effort.




My thoughts to the thread not just to you Seiken.
That might be being worked on at the moment by different people. The problem is that would mean working out

Every known karate kata.
Every known weapons kata that was trained alongside karate.
Knowing weapons that were trained with karate.
Every known empty hand kata found in the study of weapons Every known Okinawan dance.

Knowing what ti was and the Chinese infleunce.
The original infleunce on ti.
The Japanese influence and any other influence.
The correct history of Okinawa.
Knowing all the kata that are no longer around.

Anything that I have missed because it is 2.07 am and it would join the list

Easy ?

I dont think if groundfighting is or isnt(or even was or wasnt) in karate can be proven or disproven unless a person has an answer to all of the above. Unless perhaps an original Okinawan kata shows a karate ka rolling about on the floor?

Theres a thought?

If techniques from other arts are contained within karate kata and trained then regardless how they are trained how is that crosstraining? If techniques were trained and werent in kata how is that than viewed?

If a form of wrestling exists in karate and some techniques are found in kata and a wrestler trains the same techniques then is that cross training? Or just a method of live practice?

Bit like a mixture of martial arts became karate.
MMA = mixed martial arts?

Is that purely the use of words??.




Zach the conversation isnt realy about aliens.
That question would be easy in comparison.
Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/29/08 09:29 PM)

Top
#392276 - 04/29/08 09:54 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

- submision westling and grappling have overlapping basis in principles, but the fundamental strategies are different. They are different games. Not to mention a whole different set of body mechanics and leveraging methods. common sense.




But Ed, I think you are forgetting the nature of application of karate techniques. Defensive techniques become offensive. Blocks strike and strikes deflect. Blocking techniques are then used to apply joint locks. Just like you said, these techniques may have some overlapping principles, however, they are different "games". Yet they are found not only within the same art, but the same technique. Karate is this way. Its application is not as concrete as you may be thinking Ed.

Quote:

therefore, stand-up grappling was passed down thru Karate, but submission wrestling was not- it must be crosstrained for that range of skill. argument over, I agree with you and Victor.




Oh, so you mean that standing grappling matches were commonly trained in karate to enhance standing grappling skill, yet once they hit the ground the exercise stopped. And this was trained as a self/life preservation art? I'm confused Ed. In what way was the training of standing grappling trained and passed on through karate and not through supplemental training exercises. Unless you are talking about goju guys "cross training" in chinese push hands arts and "bolting" it onto their goju. However, they talk about how it has always been a part of that art and are dishonest about their cross training in it.

Quote:

If you are going to try and reword and reopen the argument, then all you'll need to do is tell us which Karate teacher taught you submission wrestling.




Reword? You obviously don't know what words I originally used. If you had you would have used them to show me the inconsistencies. The fact is I NEVER said I was taught submission wrestling by any karate teacher. I was taught joint locks and chokes.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

Top
#392277 - 04/29/08 10:08 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Huh. Interesting. I would never consider it 'cross training' if trained in 2 seperate karate styles. Not sure if this is 'karate centric' POV or not.




IMO if you train in one style,then another, you are cross training. Even if both the styles are karate.

Goju and Kempo= crosstraining
Shotokan and Marcelbayashi ryu = crosstraining
ATA TKD and ITF tkd = crosstraining




Interesting. Harlan gets the IMO response and I get the you are simply being dishonest response. Very interesting.




I have no use to argue with dishonest people.







Wow Brian, that was a shot at Harlan from out of the blue for no reason at all. Basically you have been arguing with me because I am honest, but chose not to argue with Harlan because of her dishonesty by not believing that training in two different styles of karate is cross training. I don't agree, but to each his own.

Quote:

I was just offering harlan my opinion.
The latter added in just shows my true feelings about you and your outlandish claims.




Okay, but really Brian, I don't think I want to know your "true feelings" about me. I don't swing that way.

As far as my outlandish claims. That standing grappling techniques in kata can be used on the ground. And that okinawans used their okinawan style submission wrestling as a preperatory training exercise for karate. And that wrestling for fighting is similar to tegumi. And karte/kata has joint locks and chokes that can be used on the ground. And that kata even has escapes from grappling techniques. You are right Brian. This stuff is "outlandish". Please refrain from worrying about the stuff I write. It obviously doesn't make any sense and is too far fetched to be realistic. Almost like breathing real hard will improve your fighting skill and protect yourself when being struck.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

Top
#392278 - 04/29/08 10:59 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

But Ed, I think you are forgetting the nature of application of karate techniques. Defensive techniques become offensive. Blocks strike and strikes deflect. Blocking techniques are then used to apply joint locks. Just like you said, these techniques may have some overlapping principles, however, they are different "games". Yet they are found not only within the same art, but the same technique. Karate is this way. Its application is not as concrete as you may be thinking Ed.


If the skill is not taught and trained thru the art directly, then you can't really say it's there or say it's always been there.

Quote:

Oh, so you mean that standing grappling matches were commonly trained in karate to enhance standing grappling skill, yet once they hit the ground the exercise stopped.


nobody knows how everyone trained. maybe some groups did, who knows. what I do know is that there is no evidence of a Karate teacher passing on ground submission skills as defined earlier.


Quote:

And this was trained as a self/life preservation art? I'm confused Ed. In what way was the training of standing grappling trained and passed on through karate and not through supplemental training exercises. Unless you are talking about goju guys "cross training" in chinese push hands arts and "bolting" it onto their goju. However, they talk about how it has always been a part of that art and are dishonest about their cross training in it.




Push hands most likely did come from China, when? nobody knows...but at the very least it was part of Goju training at the time of the Goju founder. just as most of Goju's kata. Kobudo however, was likely added as practice to some Goju schools after Miyagi - but that admittedly was due to cross-training the arts.

how and when Shorin schools started to have push-hands drills seems to be after the 1970's. Did Nagamine include push-hand drills in his curriculum? not sure. However, it appears Shorin schools included kobudo before Goju.

I may be wrong on those guesses. but the point is, it's not dishonest to cross-train, blend and include your influences - on the contrary - an Art should be your own and include what makes sense to meet your objective and abilities.
The main thing that is important to try and be honest about is the recognition of where those skills came from.

Ground submission grappling skill doesn't get built from Karate training since it appears it was not taught within the Karate context and passed down within the Art, at least during the time of your style's founder passed on that Art.

Top
#392279 - 04/29/08 11:00 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Twisty little word twister you!

I, in no way shape or form, think harlan is dishonest.

I think I'll follow your instructor's advice.

Train more and post less.

Peace out homeskillet!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#392280 - 04/29/08 11:07 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Wow, so much focus and to be frequently referenced...hmmm.

First Mutsu Mizo's 1933 "Karate Kempo" was the 2nd book he had written about karate. He had trained with Funakoshi Sensei (but as I understand it no mention is made of him in his book), trained in Okinawa in 1930 and created a text book with great detail.

For one thing he had a larger karate kata curricula than Funakoshi's 1935 'Karate Do Koyan' (and represented most of the kata the JKA would eventually adopt - but I can't say if the Shotokan folks were practicing them in addition to the Fuankoshi core kata at that time).

But it's most interesting aspect was the last 1/2 of the book was dedicated to karate applications. The techniques are cataloged by type of attack and varieto of responses for them. For example included are dodging, bobing and weaving defensive techniques. And yes there is a section about ground grappling techniques, both unarmed and armed.

Mutsu was Japanese. He might have been including Japanese Judo or jujutsu material or he may have been including actual karate practices he experienced. The book translation into Engish continues so we don't really know what he described, but they clearly are part of what he shows.

I don't think we can spin it either way without a clear translation. Looking at the drawings does not explain context. On the other hand he was published in Japan and other Karate-ka might have paid attention (as perhaps they did for the kata0 or may not have.

That is the core to this never-ending discussion. All everyone's relying on is logic, not evidence such as I'm holding in my hand, as inconclusive as it may be.

The karate tradition (till Japan 1930 onward) was things were mostly undocumented. We can't assume any karate training in Japan (frequently developed for short term college students and not a child among them) had much in common with Okinawa's drills.

In the 20's and 30's, as far as I can see Okinawan karate would not have changed much from it's past. Some school teaching efforts, but no large scale instruction push.

If only a handfull of Okinawan's were doing karate in those days, on an island 45 miles in length, and the only serious grappling was the sport sumo tradition, it is likely little work was done on serious grappling counters.

But karate being done by the few, many of those few may have also practiced family kobudo traditions (not formally in karate studies then) and being logical I'm sure for forced attack they would have likely responde with what they could put their hands on as well as their karate.

Every blinking karate tradition being bandied about is a new tradition. Not one of these systems was in effect in the 20's or before. The rise of schools or systems was post WWII, before that there were just instructors.

No evidence to characterize any of it, just the echos through kata. That isn't bad, for the variety of use of kata is incredibly fast, but does not answer these discussions does it.

Simply if the few who practiced were not really worried about grappling attacks, they would have spent little time on them. Doesn't mean their arts couldn't handle them, just their practice was very different.

On the surface, those who trained, trained hard and if attacked they were likely going for severe damage, not to play with their food.

Modern day karate is an entirely different beast, but I guarantee you whatever you use to draw lines never will describe the reality of systems and instrutors out there. The lines more describe what you belive, not reality.

Going through Joe Swift's recent translation on the time line of Okinawan karate I was struck by how much was written in Okinawa in the past 100 years, and of course none of it avaiable in other languages.

There is documentation, we just don't have much access to it. I paid a fortune for my 'Karate kempo' which was worth every penny to me, but I can't read it.

To answer this definitively you have to dig out the surviving old timers (if any are left) and beg them for answers, and/or actually read what has been written.

It just wasn't written for us, and the Okinawans (and the Japanese) haven't been in a rush to translate it for us either. So step by step some of this comes available.

And of course in the mean time everyone will keep speculating on something they have no evidence to prove either way.

How we actually train is more important, IMVHO.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

Top
#392281 - 04/29/08 11:09 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

As far as my outlandish claims. That standing grappling techniques in kata can be used on the ground.




Agreed and can be demonstrated .
So some might argue then why didint a master demonstrate this with a two man drill and record it somewhere in a book.
It would require photos.

The problem is it wont be believed unless it can be shown.
Quote:



And that wrestling for fighting is similar to tegumi.




Ditto
Quote:


And karate/kata has joint locks and chokes that can be used on the ground.





Agreed and could be demonstrated.

Quote:


And that kata even has escapes from grappling techniques




Agreed and could be demonstrated.
Iain aberneathy has come up with a lot of uses for kata.
On other forums some question if what he does has pedigree
being that wado is not to high on Bunkia.

See what a person is up against?

I believe there had to be ground fighting in strains of karate because of the amount of infleunces that went in to the development and the scource of the infleunces and the fact that any kind of encounter can go to the ground.

If empty hand was trained alongside weapons there would have been armed and unarmed grappling/striking at some point.

Other wise it would be the same as saying that samuria arts have no ground fighting.

But I dont think all of the history of Okinawa can be proven beyond doubt at this moment in time.

Its a case of proof. So I think it is still no win no loss as to does ground fighting exist in karate.

Yet

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/29/08 11:14 PM)

Top
#392282 - 04/30/08 07:08 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
lol...you guys try hard to circle the argument, but the simple question is, did your Karate instructor teach you ground submission wrestling in 2-person drills with him looking on and correcting? so far, I'm reading everyone say no, that skillset wasn't specifically passed on to them thru Karate channels. How about yourself Jude?

Top
#392283 - 04/30/08 07:49 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

That standing grappling techniques in kata can be used on the ground.


you agreed yourself, they are different games. If it isn't specifically taught and trained on the ground thru Karate, then the ground skill was gained thru external source.

Quote:

And that okinawans used their okinawan style submission wrestling as a preperatory training exercise for karate.


thats deceptively worded. tegumi was not 'training'. no where do I see a reference to tegumi masters teaching tegumi, or karate masters teaching tegumi. it has been described as the type of informal playfighting that kids usually do. a trial-and-error learning - not taught by a teacher in the form of techniques and drills. then if they happen to later take karate, and in retrospect, they realize the playfighting helped them to toughen up. I used to really like running as a kid, I don't consider that a "preperatory training exercise for karate". If a kid later took Judo, then you could say tegumi is a prepatory exercise for Judo.

In fact, tegumi was very likely born out of kids imitating sumo matches they publically watched. not born out of public Karate matches. (karate was practiced secrectly at night, remember? ). So if anything, it would probably be more acurate to say that informal tegumi was prepatory to Okinawan Sumo. similar to how kids use backyard wrestling to prepare them for their later WWF career. lol

goofiness aside, see my point?


Quote:

And that wrestling for fighting is similar to tegumi.


H.S. wrestling, MMA, BJJ, etc are also similar to wrestling for fighting - why use a foreign cultural word of an activity not formally passed down? if you learned HS wrestling, then took Karate - then thats what it was. you didn't learn tegumi from Karate or tegumi in preparation for karate - you learned HS wrestling and Karate separately from 2 different sources. Did your karate instructor say HS wresling was a pre-requisite for training? or did he start his classes with HS wrestling prepatory exercises?


Quote:

And karte/kata has joint locks and chokes that can be used on the ground. And that kata even has escapes from grappling techniques.


see first quote remark.

Top
Page 18 of 25 < 1 2 ... 16 17 18 19 20 ... 24 25 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki, Ronin1966 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Fight Videos
Night club fight footage and street fights captured with the world's first bouncer spy cam

How to Matrix!
Learn ten times faster with new training method. Learn entire arts for as little as $10 per disk.

Self Defense
Stun guns, pepper spray, Mace and self defense products. Alarms for personal and home use.

TASER MC26C
Stop An Urban Gorilla: Get 2 FREE TASER M26C Replacement Air Cartridges With Each New TASER M26C!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga