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#392214 - 04/26/08 04:31 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
lol. yes I do. The intent is downing a standing attack. There are also throws, sweeps, trips and takedowns from a standing position.

let me ask you a question: do you believe karate teaches and has always taught how to defend yourself when you and the opponent are both on the ground and both are struggling for positional dominance? such as is taught in submission grappling arts? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submission_grappling

if so, please correct that and also this wikipedia entry citing your references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-up_fighting

Karate is for stand-up fighting, med. You can add whatever art you want to it, but Karate has been transmitted thru the generations as a stand-up fighting art....until the 1990's anyway

It's not a coincidence that ALL Karate kata are from a standing position and with various finishing techniques including your 1 kata that has one knee on the ground.

Karate and it's kata are a stand-up fighting art. If you have submission wrestling (as defined in the above link) in your Karate, thats great, but those drills were not passed down thru Karate training/curricula - they are an add-on post 1990's.

besides, most Karate places that have ground-fighting is usually a form of what is known as 'crappling'. want to learn good ground-game? go to a BJJ or MMA gym - people don't go to a Karate dojo with the intent/expectation of becoming good ground-fighters.

...just like someone wouldn't join a BJJ gym, Aikido dojo or Judo dojo if they wanted to learn how to strike hard with their hands and feet.

If you put all arts and ranges into your Karate med, you might be able to invent a new art: MMA with kata. ...oh wait, thats already being done.

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#392215 - 04/26/08 08:00 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

lol. yes I do. The intent is downing a standing attack. There are also throws, sweeps, trips and takedowns from a standing position.




Okay, Ed, what do you think happened in training when a takedown failed and both people hit the ground?

Quote:

let me ask you a question: do you believe karate teaches and has always taught how to defend yourself when you and the opponent are both on the ground and both are struggling for positional dominance? such as is taught in submission grappling arts? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submission_grappling

if so, please correct that and also this wikipedia entry citing your references:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-up_fighting




I am not sure what you want me to correct Ed. In okinawan karate if someone puts you down you stand up. And you use your stand up grappling tools to do it. I know you don't have a lot of grappling experience, but what is so hard to understand about this. And why don't you believe that the old school okinawan karate guys would use this type of strategy?

Quote:

Karate is for stand-up fighting, med. You can add whatever art you want to it, but Karate has been transmitted thru the generations as a stand-up fighting art....until the 1990's anyway

It's not a coincidence that ALL Karate kata are from a standing position and with various finishing techniques including your 1 kata that has one knee on the ground.




In addition to three kata with kneeling techniques not including kusanku which has other ground techniques, there is a lot that kata does that is not so obvious. It is the two man drills which make kata come alive. Why chamber when you don't always have to chamber? If I used your logic I would interpet kata to mean that if there was a chamber then for use in fighting you must always chamber to use a specific technique from kata that has chambering. That may make sense to you but it does not to me.

Quote:

Karate and it's kata are a stand-up fighting art. If you have submission wrestling (as defined in the above link) in your Karate, thats great, but those drills were not passed down thru Karate training/curricula - they are an add-on post 1990's.




I'm not sure if you caught this one Ed, but grappling techniques in kata are not really for submission grappling because it does contain a lot of striking techniques to set up and finish just about everything. Grappling is for training and techniques from kata are for fighting. So obviously using kata techniques in fighting would not carry the same definition of submission wrestling. However, the okinawan tegumi practice would be it practiced by kids or adults.

Quote:

besides, most Karate places that have ground-fighting is usually a form of what is known as 'crappling'. want to learn good ground-game? go to a BJJ or MMA gym - people don't go to a Karate dojo with the intent/expectation of becoming good ground-fighters.




Yes, that's why I tell my karate students, especially the kids, to wrestle in high school and weight train. Karate training is not really for weaklings and people who don't know how to grapple already. And I believe that is also why this was the classical prescription for someone who wanted to learn karate. First learn how to grapple which will increase your ability to fight and build up your body. Then learn karate.

Quote:

...just like someone wouldn't join a BJJ gym, Aikido dojo or Judo dojo if they wanted to learn how to strike hard with their hands and feet.




Actually all three of those styles have effective atemi waza. I guess you haven't seen Helio Gracie teach his self defense drills. They amazingly look very similar to basic karate drills with punches, kicks, elbows, and knees. That's probably because they most likely came from the judo they based their BJJ on. Which in turn came from JJJ. Which influenced okinawan karate. Probably the reason why some of the escapes on the ground from karate are similar in principle to the basic BJJ techniques, except rather than pulling guard we stand up.

Quote:

If you put all arts and ranges into your Karate med, you might be able to invent a new art: MMA with kata. ...oh wait, thats already being done.





Actually Ed, its already BEEN done. In ancient Greece is was called pankration and their art contained kata called pyrrics. But wait, you didn't know that, did you?
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#392216 - 04/26/08 08:27 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Actually all three of those styles have effective atemi waza. I guess you haven't seen Helio Gracie teach his self defense drills. They amazingly look very similar to basic karate drills with punches, kicks, elbows, and knees. That's probably because they most likely came from the judo they based their BJJ on. Which in turn came from JJJ. Which influenced okinawan karate. Probably the reason why some of the escapes on the ground from karate are similar in principle to the basic BJJ techniques, except rather than pulling guard we stand up.




Yeah...go take Judo to learn effective atemi-waza, that's a sure path to efficiency

Sure they include strikes in their training to some limited degree, but much like groundfighting in karate the atemi in these arts is NOT a primary weapon.

It is ironic to me that you are arguing this point with Ed after admitting multiple times that you didn't learn your groundfighting from a Karate source.

I wonder how we would look upon a BJJ player with great striking skills who learned some boxing or whatnot, and then came back and said "this was BJJ all along"!


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/26/08 08:32 PM)

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#392217 - 04/26/08 09:56 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Zach_Zinn]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I wonder how we would look upon a BJJ player with great striking skills who learned some boxing or whatnot, and then came back and said "this was BJJ all along"!




LOL. Good point Zach. I also have a hard time reconciling Medulanet telling people to learn wrestling. I thought he said it was already part of karate. Why does one have to learn it seperate then?

And why is learning BJJ apparently considered "cross-training", but wrestling isn't? I get the impression that Med and Seiken have an irrational hatred for BJJ/MMA - despite wanting to claim that they train the same way.
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#392218 - 04/26/08 10:18 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Karate is for defending yourself while standing. however...

since the only constant that karate has is change itself, then I don't think it so strange that people added ground submission wrestling to their karate starting in the 1990's...hell, they probably added judo throws after judo became popular. and before that, they added chinese arts when it was popular.
Karate adds what it lacks and what is popular....it's the nature of the art.

'traditional' karate is sortof like the borg...they assimilate and credit with their own name.

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#392219 - 04/27/08 02:05 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Really its about points of emphasis. A punch in BJJ is similar to a punch in any other style. It is all about how much you develop that aspect of your game and what your strategy is. In fact, a guy I know who is a Relson Gracie brown belt told me that the main things he remembers about rolling with relson is the head butt, knee to the groin, and elbow shot he received and not the submissions.

As for arguing the main thing is you guys are having a hard time understanding what I am saying. I get techniques and fighting principles from kata and grappling skill from grappling practice. Maybe you guys don't know, but grappling skill and grappling techniques are a little different. Someone who knows nothing about grappling can have natural talent and have grappling skill, but know nothing about joint locks or anything else. My arguements have not changed. If you look back I have said the same things, and you guys just don't like it.

In addition, you analogy is not a good one because if a BJJ boxed like a boxer that is obviously not in the art. In addition, if a karate man rolled like a BJJ guy that is obviously not in the art. However, if the ground fighting looks very different from how a BJJ guys rolls and contains strategy that is very different, then would we assume that he got his techniques from BJJ?
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#392220 - 04/27/08 02:09 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Grappling training is a supplemental exercise for karate much like tegumi was for the okinawans in the 1800s. Like I said before, you call it crosstraining and I do not.

And who said that learning BJJ is cross training and learning wrestling is not? I think you just said that, but I never did.

As far as me hating BJJ, that is not the case. I don't like their strategy. I like to get up if I'm put down, not fight from my back. The guard is NOT a neutral position.
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#392221 - 04/27/08 02:11 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Karate is for defending yourself while standing.




Ed, I find it interesting that although Victor Smith has also made points contrary to such beliefs, you have never challenged him on that point. I wonder why?
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Dulaney Dojo

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#392222 - 04/27/08 04:15 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Really its about points of emphasis. A punch in BJJ is similar to a punch in any other style. It is all about how much you develop that aspect of your game and what your strategy is. In fact, a guy I know who is a Relson Gracie brown belt told me that the main things he remembers about rolling with relson is the head butt, knee to the groin, and elbow shot he received and not the submissions.




You know, the guys i've done Jujitsu with bring up this kind of stuff all the time, they strike alot, and many of their kata (it's Danzan Ryu, so they have kata) seem to actually include strikes. is it striking? Sure.

Is is striking with the same kind of intent and purpose as Karate or another percussive discipline? Hell no, much the same as most throws, jointlocks, etc. taught in Karate are basic by the standards of an art like Jujitsu, and occupy a different place in the strategy of the art.

It's not what the art specializes in and that's that, obviously BJJ isn't known for it's striking expertise, regardless of what your friend remembers.

Quote:


As for arguing the main thing is you guys are having a hard time understanding what I am saying. I get techniques and fighting principles from kata and grappling skill from grappling practice. Maybe you guys don't know, but grappling skill and grappling techniques are a little different. Someone who knows nothing about grappling can have natural talent and have grappling skill, but know nothing about joint locks or anything else. My arguements have not changed. If you look back I have said the same things, and you guys just don't like it.





Huh? I'm no grappler but I've done enough to have a decent if very basic understanding of grappling for position,and very elementary use of chokes. that doesn't do anything for your argument though, no one needs grappling experience to evaluate or understand your argument.

Some people are naturals at overwhelming someone with a flurry of punches too without much specific training in strikes, what does that have to do with it?

Quote:


In addition, you analogy is not a good one because if a BJJ boxed like a boxer that is obviously not in the art. In addition, if a karate man rolled like a BJJ guy that is obviously not in the art. However, if the ground fighting looks very different from how a BJJ guys rolls and contains strategy that is very different, then would we assume that he got his techniques from BJJ?




I have never once said anything about BJJ specifically, I don't know crap about BJJ and I have no idea what your obsession with referring to it is. I know there is other groundfighting, in fact what little training I have on the ground is from stuff which is not BJJ.

If someone did what you were talking about I would think "hey this guy has learned how to grapple for position nicely and integrated it into his Karate training"...which is great, since hey that's exactly what you did.

I would think you learned the skills outside of a Karate dojo, because in fact you did.

The question of whether you are doing it the "way the Okinawan's did" by cross training is again....sorry to be rude, just a question of how you market yourself, not one of any real meaning.

The bottom line is you learned the skills elsewhere...did it enrich your Karate? Sure.

I'll give you an example from my own experience that'll seem silly but I hope it gets the nuance across:

I learned many of the same escapes in Danzan ryu that was taught in Karate, some of which can even be found in Goju kata....fact is though, the Danzan Ryu guys understand them better than me, because that's their bread and butter.

Am I gonna say "this is Danzan Ryu" if teaching an esacpe from a hold? No, martial arts aren't brand names. I will however be honest and say that my own skill at using these techniques is much the better for having trained these techniques in Jujitsu a little, so i can't sit back and claim they "came from kata" in terms of the nuances i've learned with them.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/27/08 04:36 AM)

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#392223 - 04/27/08 06:00 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Med,

It's simply that Ed doesn't want to read the book of a reply I would give.

You might note I've never been shy defending a point.

These discussions, the internet rendition of the old bull sessions, rarely stick to a topic and flow everywere like a flood on the mississippi.

I guarantee you that nothing that is being discussed remotely describes all karate, or what karate was before the modern era, back when men did their karate in their bdv's and no grappler really wanted to do a shoot on a guy in hs bdv's. (for there are biological defenses that us modern type polite folks ignore). <GRIN>


Edited by Victor Smith (04/27/08 06:02 AM)
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