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#392294 - 04/30/08 01:39 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Neko456]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Jude33 we all know that Wado-ryu and its variants came long well after Okinawan Karate.

You brought up another question if Tegumi/Submisson Wrestling was already incoroperated in Funakoshi's Karate why did Ohtsuka Wado-ryu's Soke think that Jujitsu needed to be added. I mean if he was taught right it was already in his Katas. Right?




Cant answer that question correctly right now Neko. I am still a student remember. I will however come back to it at some time in the future. Might have something to do with Funakoshi.

Still doesnt mean groundfighting didnt exist in Okinawan
karate.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/30/08 01:47 PM)

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#392295 - 04/30/08 03:56 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
jude.....buddy.....no one said ground fighting didn't exist in okinawa. why would you say that? that has nothing to do with anything thats been said on the previous 20 pages.
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#392296 - 04/30/08 05:31 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Quote:

Jude33 we all know that Wado-ryu and its variants came long well after Okinawan Karate.

You brought up another question if Tegumi/Submisson Wrestling was already incoroperated in Funakoshi's Karate why did Ohtsuka Wado-ryu's Soke think that Jujitsu needed to be added. I mean if he was taught right it was already in his Katas. Right?




Cant answer that question correctly right now Neko. I am still a student remember. I will however come back to it at some time in the future. Might have something to do with Funakoshi.

Still doesnt mean groundfighting didnt exist in Okinawan
karate.

Jude




What you on about SOL?

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#392297 - 04/30/08 05:37 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: jude33]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Jude -

Quote:

Still doesnt mean groundfighting didnt exist in Okinawan




What sol means is that we're not debating whether the Okinawans did wrestling or groundfighting. It's pretty clear that they did. The question is whether groundfighting was historically part of the karate tradition. It does not appear that it was.
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#392298 - 04/30/08 05:40 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: MattJ]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Jude -

Quote:

Still doesnt mean groundfighting didnt exist in Okinawan




What sol means is that we're not debating whether the Okinawans did wrestling or groundfighting. It's pretty clear that they did. The question is whether groundfighting was historically part of the karate tradition. It does not appear that it was.




For some reason both you and SOL have missed out the word karate from the quote I gave.
Unless I missed it out?
dont think I did?




Either way


I think groundfighting was historically part of the karate tradition.

This can be debated and get nowhere untill proof is got for both sides of the argument.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/30/08 05:47 PM)

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#392299 - 04/30/08 06:37 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

That standing grappling techniques in kata can be used on the ground.


you agreed yourself, they are different games. If it isn't specifically taught and trained on the ground thru Karate, then the ground skill was gained thru external source.




Correct Ed. You are big on circular logic, however, when I make statements you seem to like to make it appear as if you are pointing out things I didn't say. Read my posts. I said grappling skill is gained through supplementary exercises. Grappling training is no more a part of karate than weight lifting is as both as supplementary exercises to gain skill to use techniques and apply fighting principles found within karate.

Quote:

Quote:

And that okinawans used their okinawan style submission wrestling as a preperatory training exercise for karate.


thats deceptively worded. tegumi was not 'training'. no where do I see a reference to tegumi masters teaching tegumi, or karate masters teaching tegumi. it has been described as the type of informal playfighting that kids usually do. a trial-and-error learning - not taught by a teacher in the form of techniques and drills. then if they happen to later take karate, and in retrospect, they realize the playfighting helped them to toughen up. I used to really like running as a kid, I don't consider that a "preperatory training exercise for karate". If a kid later took Judo, then you could say tegumi is a prepatory exercise for Judo.




Well, Ed just look at Nagamine's book. Chotoku Kyan's father was a karate expert as he was in the same group of karate men as was Sokon Matsumura and Oyodomari. Kyan told Nagamine that his father trained him in "okinawan sumo and karate wrestling" to prepare him for study of classical karate. I believe that karate wrestling was very similar if not identical to tegumi. However, to please you I will refer to old style karate preperatory grappling practices as karate wrestling hence forth.

Quote:

In fact, tegumi was very likely born out of kids imitating sumo matches they publically watched. not born out of public Karate matches. (karate was practiced secrectly at night, remember? ). So if anything, it would probably be more acurate to say that informal tegumi was prepatory to Okinawan Sumo. similar to how kids use backyard wrestling to prepare them for their later WWF career. lol




See above Ed. If tegumi was prepartory grappling training for okinawan sumo and okinawan sumo was prepartory grappling training for karate as it apparently was for Kyan's karate, then tegumi is prepartory for karate. No circles here.

Quote:

goofiness aside, see my point?




Do you see mine?


Quote:

Quote:

And that wrestling for fighting is similar to tegumi.


H.S. wrestling, MMA, BJJ, etc are also similar to wrestling for fighting - why use a foreign cultural word of an activity not formally passed down? if you learned HS wrestling, then took Karate - then thats what it was. you didn't learn tegumi from Karate or tegumi in preparation for karate - you learned HS wrestling and Karate separately from 2 different sources. Did your karate instructor say HS wresling was a pre-requisite for training? or did he start his classes with HS wrestling prepatory exercises?




Ed, maybe you are not reading all of the posts, but I stated this freely. I guess you are recapping in the form of a question. I am not the one who ever stated to know or have learned tegumi. You should address the ones that do with this stuff. In addition, I never said I learned how to grapple from my karate teachers. And as we have seen, this is very similar to how the okinawans trained. They came to their instructors with grappling skill. Who wants to train someone to fight for real who can't grapple worth a lick? Apparently the okinawans didn't.


Quote:

Quote:

And karte/kata has joint locks and chokes that can be used on the ground. And that kata even has escapes from grappling techniques.


see first quote remark.




See all of my above remarks.

In addition, I also find it odd that you are a proponent of the standing grappling connection with karate, however, what sort of standing grappling did YOU learn from karate teachers. Even your boy Brian said he does not believe there are over or underhooks in karate/kata. And its pretty hard to have effective standing grappling without those. And if you are talking chinese push hands exercises that Miyagi cross trained in and bolted onto Goju, then that is about as valid as Mitsu's book that Victor referenced. Especially since you believe that he got them from Judo and added them to his karate, much like Miyagi did with push hands drills.
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#392300 - 04/30/08 06:46 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 602
Loc: London, UK
Well Med, you wanted quotig so I'll give it a try.

Quote:

"principles for groundfighting are contained in classical kata"




You've stated that by this you actually mean there are principles for standing grappling in kata which can be applied on the ground if you understand how. Problem is what you mean is totally different to what you said.
What you said implies that within Karate kata all the mechanics etc that one needs to apply them on the ground.
What you've explained is that only with extra training outside of your art can you get the skills to apply said techniques.
If you have to go outside your art to learn how to apply the techniques on the ground then how can you state that they are "for" ground fighting?
Your justification: Tegumi was a prerequisite of Karate on Okinawa.
My problem with this is as I stated. Why would such a vital part of understanding Karate that all the Masters seemed to know, not get transmitted by even one of them?

Quote:

But Ed, I think you are forgetting the nature of application of karate techniques. Defensive techniques become offensive. Blocks strike and strikes deflect. Blocking techniques are then used to apply joint locks.




However, beyond the labels we are given all these "applications" are down to individual perception.
Why is this a problem? Because we see what we want to see. Only by further dispassionate reasoning can we filter what we want to be there from what is plausible.

Quote:

Its (karate) application is not as concrete as you may be thinking




And here-in lies the truth of the matter. Application can be what we want and I (you) want ground work to confirm my (your) impression of Karate being complete historicly as well as personally.


Quote:

Oh, so you mean that standing grappling matches were commonly trained in karate to enhance standing grappling skill, yet once they hit the ground the exercise stopped.




Actually yes, why not. Jujutsu-ka managed it for a long time, hence Kano's Judoka beat them. Most of the standing grappling i.e. control/manipulation techniques I have seen, regardless of art, have been trained in a 1-step format where control is taken and the attacker neutralised
And as occured in my old Karate school, on the occasions fights went to the floor we carried on making the best of what we knew, but we never explicitly drilled ground work. The skills developed in this way were more than enough to out-grapple someone untrained and even enough to escape people who were trained (long enough to hit them really really hard).

Sorry Med, your modern un-okinawan perception (as you have so readily admitted it is) of what a complete art is or needs is not reason enough to assume techniques and teachings not seen by anyone anywhere ever.

And yes I did read Victors post. 1) Until it is translated into English the book in question is useless as evidence as anything (to us). If an English translation comes out stating that the ground grappling techniques are derived from Okinawan Karate kata and are commonly trained on Okinawa through Tegumi practice then I am totally wrong. But I doubt it will happen quite like that if at all.

2) Funny how the only karate book pre ww2 with ground applications is written by someone who seems likely to have had a Judo/jujutsu background.


Edited by Shonuff (04/30/08 06:49 PM)
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#392301 - 04/30/08 06:55 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Shonuff]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Med -

I'm curious. How many instructors in your style have ever taught or were known for dedicated, submission style groundfighting, especially before the advent of the UFC's?

Observational evidence alone says that few were - in any karate style, including my AKK. Written evidence is sparse, and kata transmission of ground techniques apears to be non-existant.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#392302 - 04/30/08 08:10 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

"principles for groundfighting are contained in classical kata"




You've stated that by this you actually mean there are principles for standing grappling in kata which can be applied on the ground if you understand how. Problem is what you mean is totally different to what you said.
What you said implies that within Karate kata all the mechanics etc that one needs to apply them on the ground.
What you've explained is that only with extra training outside of your art can you get the skills to apply said techniques.
If you have to go outside your art to learn how to apply the techniques on the ground then how can you state that they are "for" ground fighting?
Your justification: Tegumi was a prerequisite of Karate on Okinawa.
My problem with this is as I stated. Why would such a vital part of understanding Karate that all the Masters seemed to know, not get transmitted by even one of them?




Karate kata doesn't have "all" of the mechanics to do anything but perform kata. That is why there have always been two man drills. That is also why there were two man training practices long before forms from chuan fa were ever added.

You are right I did and do say kata has principles for ground fighting. My explaination was for the guys on where who don't know how to use common grappling techniques on the ground. I could have said that you can use the ground grappling techniques when you are standing as well. If you are on the ground on your back you better get and under hook, over hook, or double neck tie to control your opponent's position. This is ground grappling 101. It is also standing grappling 101. So I don't understand the problem you have with this.

Quote:

Quote:

But Ed, I think you are forgetting the nature of application of karate techniques. Defensive techniques become offensive. Blocks strike and strikes deflect. Blocking techniques are then used to apply joint locks.




However, beyond the labels we are given all these "applications" are down to individual perception.
Why is this a problem? Because we see what we want to see. Only by further dispassionate reasoning can we filter what we want to be there from what is plausible.




Uh, no, I don't see the problem. The problem is only if your apps don't work and you train in and teach your students garbage. And infact, this is exactly my point. Once you understand the principles of kata you can apply them in a variety of ways. And the creators of kata understood this. They are specifically designed with anatomically sound structured movements. However, these movements are very general in nature. They are so general that their applications are not always obvious and can be utilized in a variety of different situations and "games."

Quote:

Quote:

Its (karate) application is not as concrete as you may be thinking




And here-in lies the truth of the matter. Application can be what we want and I (you) want ground work to confirm my (your) impression of Karate being complete historicly as well as personally.




Come on now, I only speak the truth. In fact, application can be what you want it to be, however, if it is crappy application then you are doing crappy karate. In addition, if you say that a straight punch is a flying spinning cresent whirl kick, then that is taking things a bit too far. However some people here believe using an underhook both standing and on the ground is taking things too far.

Quote:

Quote:

Oh, so you mean that standing grappling matches were commonly trained in karate to enhance standing grappling skill, yet once they hit the ground the exercise stopped.




Actually yes, why not. Jujutsu-ka managed it for a long time, hence Kano's Judoka beat them. Most of the standing grappling i.e. control/manipulation techniques I have seen, regardless of art, have been trained in a 1-step format where control is taken and the attacker neutralised
And as occured in my old Karate school, on the occasions fights went to the floor we carried on making the best of what we knew, but we never explicitly drilled ground work. The skills developed in this way were more than enough to out-grapple someone untrained and even enough to escape people who were trained (long enough to hit them really really hard).




That's interesting, especially because all of Kano's techniques came from JJJ. And of course I assume you will provide the proper references for your assertions that JJJ practioners did not do any ground training of their ground grappling techniques as Ed "Logic Master" Morris has required. In fact, it was the randori practice and resistive (sportive) nature of Judo that allowed it to best people who were trained in non resistive methods. However, if training in a life preservation art then your training must mimic the threat to your life. I guess bad guys on okinawa stopped fighting when the fight hit the ground.

Quote:

Sorry Med, your modern un-okinawan perception (as you have so readily admitted it is) of what a complete art is or needs is not reason enough to assume techniques and teachings not seen by anyone anywhere ever.




Oh really. I didn't know you knew everyone on the plant who is currently living or has ever lived. But what you really means is people on FA.com and all the other forums. Sorry, Nuff, my training reaches beyond cyberspace.

Quote:

And yes I did read Victors post. 1) Until it is translated into English the book in question is useless as evidence as anything (to us). If an English translation comes out stating that the ground grappling techniques are derived from Okinawan Karate kata and are commonly trained on Okinawa through Tegumi practice then I am totally wrong. But I doubt it will happen quite like that if at all.

2) Funny how the only karate book pre ww2 with ground applications is written by someone who seems likely to have had a Judo/jujutsu background.




Yes, it is funny. Kind of funny that many grappling adepts were drawn to karate. Kano seemed to like it as well. Why would a grappling man like such an art? But that is a subject for anther post. Nuff said.
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#392303 - 04/30/08 08:14 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Med -

I'm curious. How many instructors in your style have ever taught or were known for dedicated, submission style groundfighting, especially before the advent of the UFC's?

Observational evidence alone says that few were - in any karate style, including my AKK. Written evidence is sparse, and kata transmission of ground techniques apears to be non-existant.




That's just it Matt, there is no dedicated submission style ground grappling in karate just like there is not any power lifting, or olympic style sprint training, or marathon level long distance running. However, there is running, weight lifting, and grappling training which are a part of karate preparation.

As for karate/kata transmission of ground techniques as you say. To believe there are no arm bars (karate style not bjj), shoulder locks, wrist locks, or chokes in karate that are finished on the ground is naive.
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