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#392284 - 04/30/08 07:52 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
When I started karate (1980), we would wrestle during warm-up. Usually sitting down back to back. At hajime, try to get top position and have control on opponent. very good warm-up. I think it came from judo.

Specifically instructed was fighting while one would be on the ground and one would be standing. Attacking hip/groin/knees/feet including take-down and submission techniques/locks. Goal was to get up as quickly as possible.
This made clear that fighting strategy in karate was standing, at least how we trained it. I have never seen it otherwise. I later saw a book on Fukien dog boxing, and recognised a lot of techniques.

We also studied 5 sanbon kumites wich would all end taking down the opponent, 2 of them fighting while both would be on the ground, but strategy would be to take out opponent by hitting or kicking and get up, although initiated by throw or lock or both.

I first heared of cage fighting in 1992.

Links to tegumi/ground wrestling.
Tegumi was a sport teached in the schools. Miyagi did it in highschool. It was a sport for commeners and keimochi. And there would be bouds during festivals. As of 1901, karate is teached in the highschools on Okinawa. I have no reference if tegumi was still teached at that point.
However many karateka also studied judo in the 1920-1940.
For those in law enforcement, it was mandatory.
I do not feel tegumi is incorporeted in karate. But it was studied as seperate art, later replaced by judo to some degree.

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#392285 - 04/30/08 08:40 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: CVV]
CVV Offline
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Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
We find reference to training tegumi/shima in the early 20th century in Morio Higaonna 'History of karate'. Chojun Miyagi was thaught Okinawan sumo wrestling(shima) by Soei Makishi a local champion. He also studied judo at highschool.

Shoshin Nagamine describes how Motobu Choki encounterd an Okinawan wrestler (tegumi) who stopped wrestling at age 30 and had a friendly bout with him (See tales of Okinawan Great Masters).

Morio Higaonna also describes in 'Traditional Karate volume I' how in China Kanryu Higashiaonna would train close fighting techniques and choking with partner in a large bamboo basket called Uki. The basket insists fighting in clinch wich will eventually end on the ground.

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#392286 - 04/30/08 10:54 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: CVV]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
CVV that was good information but even with those details you come up with the same conclusion that we do. And I know thats the point you are making so we are in agreement.

Karate and Tegumi where two separate training, even if Tegumi was formally trained and it seemed it was. It was different from Karate.

Karate training seems to always to have been thought of as serious training and Tegumi was a fun challenging sport. Even if practioners sometimes got hurt or broke something, it was an accident or they didn't tap when they should have.

No one questions if Karate has takedowns, Locks, Throws, breaks or chokes. What is questioned is that it doesn't have sustained groundfighting. One of the formal two men drills that we do both you lock and break the arm in shikodachi while throwing him head 1st to the ground and after he comes out of the roll you strike the eyes. This is different then seeking to mount and lock an arm or take back an choke or counter that. To me it seems far more serious, get it done quickly.

I agree that Okinawans would have used their past training in wrestling if taken down or if they wanted to mount. But it was not past down through Kata.

And seriously Naihanchi/Tekki's ground applications (the ones I've seen) are far inferior to Judo's/BJJs or Submission wrestling's rolling. Whereas its standing application seems to have less flaws. Almost like thats the best place to apply its principles maybe thats just me because I'd changed gears wrestle instead of Karate at that range rather then think my horse stance was a guard???

I'm a non believer what can I say.
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#392287 - 04/30/08 11:47 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Neko456]
CVV Offline
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Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

No one questions if Karate has takedowns, Locks, Throws, breaks or chokes. What is questioned is that it doesn't have sustained groundfighting. One of the formal two men drills that we do both you lock and break the arm in shikodachi while throwing him head 1st to the ground and after he comes out of the roll you strike the eyes. This is different then seeking to mount and lock an arm or take back an choke or counter that. To me it seems far more serious, get it done quickly.





Neko, what you describe here is a technique of the first of the 5 sanbon kumites I mentioned in my earlier post. Maybe rhey are the same drills as you use.
The purpose is either he dislocates/breaks his schoulder or he rolls through and gets one in the face and groin. Either way, you get up after thsi technique. You do not continue to roll with the opponent. I believe thsi strategy was devised to always take into account multiple opponents. Take one down and reevaluate your position standing.

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#392288 - 04/30/08 12:01 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: CVV]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
CVV sounds like the same drill but its close to groundfighting in that you both are on the ground not kneeling hips on the ground. But as you mentioned you roll up quickly never staying down to ground fight. Being that you have broken a limb, smashed his face into the ground and stabbed him in the eyes!! Whats the use of choking him out or anyother manuver unless you want to go to jail.

Sounds like the same drill. If thats Tegumi I wish there was more in Karate, but really thats just old style Goju-ryu Karate which is known and documented to like to grapple.


Edited by Neko456 (04/30/08 12:02 PM)
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#392289 - 04/30/08 12:49 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

lol...you guys try hard to circle the argument, but the simple question is, did your Karate instructor teach you ground submission wrestling in 2-person drills with him looking on and correcting? so far, I'm reading everyone say no, that skillset wasn't specifically passed on to them thru Karate channels. How about yourself Jude?




In wado there are traditional jujitsu techniques called idori.

They are in the main defence when both people are on their knees.
Some do involve rolling about on the floor.

It was taught in the wado karate syllabus. I was shown some of them but didint realy take a lot of interest at the time namely because the expertise in using the knowledge in that area is held by a very few.

If the same techniques found in idori are in Okinawan kata then there is proof of groundfighting in Okinawan karate.

The Japanese infleunce on certain strains of Okinawan karate.

So I am afraid it would be for someone to do a lot of research, learning all the techniques in wado and all the katas available before that line to groundfighting in Okinawan karate could be established or not.


Master Ohtsuka
Trained in Shinto Yoshin Ryu Ju-Jitsu
and other strains of jujitsu.
He trained with
Master Funakoshi, Mabuni Sensei and Motobu Senei
He then trained in
Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Kenjitsu


In 1934 'Wado-Ryu Karate Jitsu' was created by Master Ohtsuka.

On April 29th 1966, the Emperor of Japan gave Ohtsuka the rank of "Kun Go To" and decorated him with the "Soko Kyokujitsu Sho" Medal for his effort to spread the practice of Karate-Do.

He was also the 4th headmaster of Shindo Yoshin Ryu jujitsu.

Quote
By the early 1930's Ohtsuka sensei had parted company with Funakoshi.
It was his belief that Funakoshi had over-simplified and modified several karate techniques and katas in the interests of teaching large groups of beginners.

He had also wanted to incorporate what is now known as Jiyu kumite (free fighting). Funakoshi was against this form of training. Ohtsuka sensei combined knowledge of Funakoshi's karate with his new knowledge of Okinawan karate, and added several of his own adaptations from the samurai martial art of jiu-jitsu, to form Wado karate.


End of quote

Jude

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#392290 - 04/30/08 01:00 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: jude33]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Jude33 we all know that Wado-ryu and its variants came long well after Okinawan Karate.

You brought up another question if Tegumi/Submisson Wrestling was already incoroperated in Funakoshi's Karate why did Ohtsuka Wado-ryu's Soke think that Jujitsu needed to be added. I mean if he was taught right it was already in his Katas. Right?


Edited by Neko456 (04/30/08 01:04 PM)
_________________________
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#392291 - 04/30/08 01:00 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: jude33]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
so Karate crosstrained with JJ is evidence of ground submission grappling in Karate if you can find it in stand-up kata. got it.

I think I'll bow out of here, until more people show signs of knowing what circular logic is.

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#392292 - 04/30/08 01:01 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Neko456]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Jude33 we all know that Wado-ryu and its variants came long well after Okinawan Karate.

You brought up another question Tegumi/Submisson Wrestling was already incoroperated in Funakoshi's Karate why did Ohtsuka Wado-ryu's Soke think that Jujitsu needed to be added. I mean if he was taught right it was already in his Katas. Rights?




Bingo.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#392293 - 04/30/08 01:29 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

so Karate crosstrained with JJ is evidence of ground submission grappling in Karate if you can find it in stand-up kata. got it.

I think I'll bow out of here, until more people show signs of knowing what circular logic is.




I hope you dont bow out for to long. The kind of feedback is good. If ever someone published anything then some of you guys are the best kind of critics.
You asked I told. Ed there isnt going to be 100 percent proof at this moment in time. I have already posted that.

And who is to say that all parts of every Okinawan kata are purely standing up?
There is one practiced by Okinawan karate ka where in parts the practioner is rolling about on the deck.

This kata is at the moment being looked at in greater detail
As to the reasons the practioner is rolling about.
I am afraid further questions on that specific kata are stonewalled untill such times it is worked out what is happening. Others with more knowledge about the kata are being requested.

With the stand up kata there are so many variations of the same kata.

So no proof against and no proof for.

Still

Jude

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