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#392304 - 04/30/08 08:29 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

As for karate/kata transmission of ground techniques as you say. To believe there are no arm bars (karate style not bjj), shoulder locks, wrist locks, or chokes in karate that are finished on the ground is naive.




Thanks for the insult. Great debating style you have!

And Med, we have been over this before. Finishing those moves on the ground is not the same as positional submission ground fighting. Very tiresome the way you keep changing your point.
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#392305 - 04/30/08 08:32 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:




That's interesting, especially because all of Kano's techniques came from JJJ. And of course I assume you will provide the proper references for your assertions that JJJ practioners did not do any ground training of their ground grappling techniques as Ed "Logic Master" Morris has required.





From my readings.
Takeda Motsuge sort of made a mess of kano,s Judo at one stage in the formation of judo. He was said to be of Fusen ryu although some state it was Takeda Motsuge ryu that made the mess of Judo.
In fact kano brought him in to Judo purely on the fact he was so good at live groundwork.

Jude

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#392306 - 04/30/08 08:57 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

As for karate/kata transmission of ground techniques as you say. To believe there are no arm bars (karate style not bjj), shoulder locks, wrist locks, or chokes in karate that are finished on the ground is naive.




Thanks for the insult. Great debating style you have!

And Med, we have been over this before. Finishing those moves on the ground is not the same as positional submission ground fighting. Very tiresome the way you keep changing your point.




Yes Matt, but you said and I quote, "kata transmission of ground techniques apears to be non-existant." It seems that you are changing your point. Why do you ask for something and then get mad when it is given to you?
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#392307 - 04/30/08 09:21 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
betcha 10 bucks you can't have the last word.

*edit*

every one in the forum, hands up who trained karate on okinawa before world war 2?


Edited by student_of_life (04/30/08 09:26 PM)
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#392308 - 04/30/08 09:25 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Yes Matt, but you said and I quote, "kata transmission of ground techniques apears to be non-existant."




If two people are in a confrontation and a grappling technique found in Okinawan kata can be used standing and while two people are on the deck then kata transmission of ground techniques is existant.

How can it be said otherwise?

The thing is, is there proof that the intended technique was used by Okinawan karate ka in the past both standing and on the deck and trained in both manners? With both karate ka rolling about. Or even indicated in an Okinawan kata by the person doing the kata rolling about and did someone learn to use ground grappling purely from Okinawan karate kata?

Are the questions I think are being asked.

Or am I missing something.

I think the next thing will be that if someone states that a specific technique is a grappling technique found in Okinawan kata that can be used standing or on the deck then
certain people will dis agree as to that technique being in that kata.

I think in the main some karate ka might find grappling on the deck a strange sensation. So they deny it happens.


Jude

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#392309 - 04/30/08 09:30 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

betcha 10 bucks you can't have the last word.

every one in the forum, hands up who trained karate on okinawa before world war 2?






We dont use bucks here. So no point betting.



so you found my correct posting then? The one that stated Okinawan karate? hard to see how you and Matt missed it but I suppose it can happen. I mean most of the points made on the thread seem to have been missed as well.


"Last Word"

So I take it you are now convinced about ground fighting being in Okinawan kata?

Good man, see one learns

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/30/08 09:38 PM)

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#392310 - 04/30/08 11:07 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


"Last Word"

So I take it you are now convinced about ground fighting being in Okinawan kata?

Good man, see one learns

Jude




You guys really need to go take a logic and crit course or something, in all the hundreds of pages on threads on this subject all you guys have is what you started with, your own opinion and a vague, ever changing argument.

You guys still haven't ponied up any evidence whatsoever to support your central ideas about submission grappling being a part of Karate which was somehow mysteriously "lost" to everyone but enlightened souls like yourselves.

Gimme a break!

I swear....why are we still talking about this? People post more interesting threads and they're quickly abandoned for these stupid groundfighting threads...pointless bickering forum-ryu!


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/30/08 11:13 PM)

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#392311 - 05/01/08 05:52 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Yes Matt, but you said and I quote, "kata transmission of ground techniques apears to be non-existant." It seems that you are changing your point. Why do you ask for something and then get mad when it is given to you?




Mad like when you call people say.........naive? That what you mean?

You haven't given me anything to get mad about anyway.

That has been my point the entire time. YOU are the one that keeps changing your point. And now you can't even come up with a rational defense. Trying to turn my questions to you around on me? Please.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#392312 - 05/01/08 03:25 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

That has been my point the entire time. YOU are the one that keeps changing your point. And now you can't even come up with a rational defense. Trying to turn my questions to you around on me? Please.




And once again, show me where I said (not your interpretation of what I said) conflicting things regarding my stance on this issue. Just repeating that I changed my my point does not make it so. In fact, once you have argued with me for however many pages and start to get my "drift" you are starting to realize I may not be as wrong as you thought. Either that or I am changing my point, right?
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Dulaney Dojo

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#392313 - 05/01/08 03:48 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Yes, you keep changing your point. And yes, "drift" is exactly the word I would use to describe your ideas.

Freudian slip, perhaps?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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