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#392244 - 04/28/08 07:22 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Neko456]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


No more then Boxing has a link to Wrestling though some say they were linked at one time. And if orgin of Karate or Boxing can be traced to Pankartion maybe thats true.

.



Hi Neko.

Admittedly bare knuckle boxing is said to have contained wrestling. I suppose it is just written so unless the articles are beleived it cant be proven.

Gypsies still practice bare knuckle boxing here in the UK. Havent met one who decribes wrestling techniques yet. Although I have seen articles on people stating they are teaching old bare knuckle boxing including wrestling.

Jude.


Edited by jude33 (04/28/08 07:33 PM)

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#392245 - 04/28/08 09:09 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Why are Ed's questions being ignored Marcel?
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#392246 - 04/28/08 10:16 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: jude33]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Jude33 I've heard people saying this is true in some of the illegal street fighting thats boxing based here in the US they say they wrestle and fight on the ground. Like you I've never seen a bout my pockets are deep enough.


Marcel I'm repeating BrainS. Why are you not addressing Ed's Questions? That would clear things up.
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#392247 - 04/29/08 04:29 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

in case you missed it:
Quote:


did your sensei (was it Eihachi Ota ?) teach submission wrestling? did his teacher? (Shima Sensei). did Nagamine teach submission wrestling?

I thought their main intent was to teach to defend from initial attack while standing? again, takedowns and drop to one knee finish/submission yes...but 2-person submission wrestling on a hard-wood traditional dojo floor? - where have you seen/heard or even read about that prior to the 1990's in a Karate context?

Could you let me know which of your Karate teachers passed ground-based submission wrestling techniques down to you in the form of having you practice 2-person submission wrestling with him looking on and correcting your technique while both opponents are on the ground struggling for positional dominance or submission?

That might clear things up.








No, Eihachi Ota is not my teacher. I, however, have known him for 5 or 6 years and he is a good guy with extremely powerful karate and moves better than ANY 60+ year old I have ever seen in my life. In addition, he has taught me a great deal about the striking only aspects of Matsubayashi, how to train kata to produce a superior fighter using combat timing. My teacher is in St. Louis, MO and began his training with Shoshin Nagamine in the mid sixties and has been training ever since. He taught us wrist locks, elbow locks, and shoulder locks. He taught us to apply them standing and take a person to the ground with them. He also taught takedowns, sweeps, and vital point striking. My second teacher taught me the inclose fighting of Matsubayashi Ryu. He taught how to close distance, grapple for position (standing) and how to understand how to use the kata techniques for in close fighting with little alteration. He also taught me how to develop a technique's application. He showed me how a technique can be worked into a variety of applications, some very close to the original movements and some not so close. However, he also taught me how the traditional training methods and kata movements prepare a student to apply the applications that a karateka develops.

As far as what you are looking for I'll explain it like this. In a resistive drill once a person obtains a positionally superior position he strikes and (BLAM!) its over, or apply a lock and (KABOOM!) it ends. Now, if a student is wrestled to the ground is unable to get a superior position when the fight hits the ground and is unable to prevent his opponent from successfully attacking him then he needs to develop that ability. However, such supplementary training is usually to be developed outside of the dojo. In the karate classes I have been a part of if a student needs to develop his skill he usually does so outside of class. Class was a time to test ability. People who did not develop outside of class got broken down inside of class. In class you learn where you are weak and what you need to do to gain strength in that area, however, it was not usually the place this strength was gained. Classical karate was not a combat sports training sort of environment. That's why student frequently struck the makiwara, lifted weights, or worked on kumite (like Motobu's streetfighting) outside of class. So I guess to answer your question no, we didn't do submission wrestling in karate class. However, I already stated that we didn't, didn't I? You learned what you were poor at in class because you couldn't stop your opponent in two man drills or kumite. Then you worked hard outside of class to improve when you got there. Karate class was more a proving ground of sorts. Not too much theory, just sweat, blood, and pain.

And as far as Ota, from what he tells me he doesn't even believe there is any stand up grappling, inclose striking, or throwing techniques in karate. So does this mean that there is/was not any and anyone is a charlatain and is preparing to make $49.99/unit in DVD sales. No, however, his striking at a distance is DEVASTATING and is a part of Nagamine's shorin ryu as well. Its all about what you focus in when training. I still stand by what my teacher and other guys like BuDoc have said here and elsewhere. Okinawan karate is a complete art.
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#392248 - 04/29/08 04:53 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



I still stand by what my teacher and other guys like BuDoc have said here and elsewhere. Okinawan karate is a complete art.




I think more the term in most cases was a complete art.
Weapons were trained along side karate.
Now in a lot of cases they are not.
And to revert it back to the complete art then cross training is used.
A complete art would indicate being able to fight from all postitions.
Either the kata were changed or the transmission of knowledge was kept and not given out by the few.
I think untill physical proof can be given the argument is still not proven either way.

Yet!!

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/29/08 05:14 AM)

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#392249 - 04/29/08 05:05 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Neko456]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Jude33 I've heard people saying this is true in some of the illegal street fighting thats boxing based here in the US they say they wrestle and fight on the ground. Like you I've never seen a bout my pockets are deep enough.


Marcel I'm repeating BrainS. Why are you not addressing Ed's Questions? That would clear things up.




Hi Neko.

I dont think it would clear things up more that it proves changes were made to karate. Some can be clearly seen some cant. It is the ones that cant be clearly seen that have to be proven.

Okinawans had a strange way of recording their history.

As far back as early Japanese people armed with realy basic swords intergreting in to the then Okinawan population.

Mix bag of population.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/29/08 05:18 AM)

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#392250 - 04/29/08 05:20 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Med,

thanks for the clarification on why you developed ground submission skill.

In my white crane class we were trained in some basic ground work that was in part derived from the style and in part bolted on from another style. One guy in particular really enjoyed this and he went to an MMA school to learn more. After a while he got pretty good and though wasn't miles ahead of the rest of us, he could beat most in the class fairly easily.

This guy was cross-training in another art even though he was in a style which taught ground work (and a number of other things that were "part of the style" if you asked my teacher, though when pressed he would admit where they came from), he could see that by going somewhere else to expand his knowledge he was cross training, gaining knowledge from outside the one style.

I cannot see how what you described is in anyway using Okinawan Karate to submission wrestle. Using wrestling to wrestle in a Karate class, sure, but Karate? I don't see it.
If you are calling those skills Karate, then by rights anyone who visits your class, goes away trains six different arts for 10 years, comes back and holds his own would be consiered a good solid Karateka???

You've said that your grappling training enabled you to unlock the kata of matsubayashi. I think this is true for many folks, myself inclded.
In most cases I've encountered, control/manipulation apps have been worked out via a degree of training in some form of grappling art.

I think the only point most have issue with is the ground element.
As has been stated, to get ground grappling out of standing kata which, did not get transmitted with any accompanying ground training or strategy, is just too big of a stretch.

You have above admitted to cross training to improve your skills (accept it or not). You've explained that within a Karate context you were taught standing grappling. Might not your ability to apply standing kata techniques on the ground be an extension of your wrestling training and not your Karate (which by your own admission did not cover ground skills)?
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#392251 - 04/29/08 05:52 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

Definitely Matt. I am not a very good grappler at all and I can't use my wrestling skill in my fighting.




No sir, you don't get to deflect this one that easy. Please explain how you got "wrestling for fighting" from a sport-based academic wrestling foundation, and why someone else would NOT be able to do the same from a sport-based BJJ groundfighting foundation.

I don't see where your way leads to something intrinsically better for "fighting". You DID recommend people wrestle in high school. That is a sport, correct?




As far as where I got wrestling for fighting, I got it from working some of the basic applications of wrestling to the fight game that Randy Couture advocates; in addition, I trained a little bit with a no gi BJJ advocate.

As far as a bjj guy not being able to do the same it is simple, because bjj and wrestling have two different mindsets and main technique sets to draw from. I'll give an example. I rolled with blue belt with 8 or 9 years experience who was no joke. Why he was not at least a purple, I don't know. He trained mainly with Rickson Gracie and smashed purples at various schools on the regular. I was bigger and stronger than him so I was able to take him down, however, he would "jiu jitsu me up" something fierce from the bottom. The first few classes we had I was unable to pass his guard. Therefore, I decided to "wrestle him" rather than play the jiu jitsu game. He would play a high guard and a rubber guard. Rather than fall into his triangles, arm bars, omaplatas, and you name its I decided to use my wrestling pinning combinations. The basis of which are cradles and nelsons (half, power half, 1/4, and 3/4). Every time he would bring his legs up I would inside cradle him, which rendered him immobile, and pass to either half guard or side mount. Again, I would use my superior base from wrestling training and pinning combinations to gain a superior position. From this position you can get up and out or rain down strikes. Now, from the bottom when I tried to work the guard stuff we were drilling I just wasn't feeling it. So I would work my underhooks from half guard and side mount. In fact, I would let him pass my guard and transition all the way to side mount so I could establish my underhook, bump him off me, and get back to a neutral position. In fact, I prefer side mount and half guard to full guard when on bottom, because I can wiggle out using underhooks and bumps to get back to a neutral position.

Now, its not so much about a jiu jitsu guy can't use these techniques (however, on the whole I have not seen jiu jitsu guys who have never wrestled with a stronger base or a strong cradle like someone who has) but its more about falling back on your strengths. When you are in deep trouble on bottom do you go for armbars and triangles from the bottom or do you work your way back to a neutral position? Do you look to pin (not just a leg to the mat but your opponent's whole body) or pass? Do you feel comfortable fighting from your back, or do you like to fight from your feet or at least from a top position better? Its about different fight strategies for different fighters.

Oh, and what's wrong with something being a "sport" Matt? Sport BJJ is not bad because it is a "sport" but because the rules of that sport ingrain bad fighting principles if it is focused on exclusively. Like you said the Gracie's developed BJJ and used it to fight challenge matches against other MAs and on the streets of Rio. That is the SD and Vale Tudo BJJ. Sport BJJ is not quite the same. When high level sport bjj guys just jump into guard from go is when you leave the realm of realistic fighting. Many times fights are decided within the first few movements and moments of a fight. I'd rather go into the fight with a power takedown and slam that a jump to guard. Why do you think many people say wrestling (and more specifically folkstyle wrestling) is the best base for MMA?
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#392252 - 04/29/08 06:01 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Shonuff, I have stated many times that grappling skill comes from grappling training just like strength comes from strength training. Did I EVER state that grappling skill came from any other place? If so, please show me where I did so.

I also did not say that okinawan karate is used to submission wrestle. Okinawan karate is used to fight. Grappling skill developed from grappling practice be it submission wrestling or tegumi is also used to fight with. Just like okinawan karate is not used to weight train. Weight training is used to develop strength which also can be used in a fight.
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Dulaney Dojo

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#392253 - 04/29/08 06:08 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

post WWII karateka in particular have been eager to document their art. show me any (or even pre-WWII for that matter) Karate publication which point out submission wrestling technique with 2 people wrestling on the ground (as defined in the link I gave) as an integral and technical part of their karate and you've made your point.




Actually, I believe Victor Smith did post info about a 1933 publication about karate which illustrated ground based submission/fighting techniques which you dismissed as being influenced from judo, although you had no proof it was.
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