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#392264 - 04/29/08 02:15 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: MattJ]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Huh. Interesting. I would never consider it 'cross training' if trained in 2 seperate karate styles. Not sure if this is 'karate centric' POV or not.

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#392265 - 04/29/08 03:02 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: MattJ]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
MattJ, Sounds good, I understand where your coming from better now. I think.

What would your style be once it has been put together though? MMA? MattJs fighting system? Karate?

I really dont think Karate in the past ever designated a difference between ranges. I think our modern labels on what things are is what causes opposition on the subject. Like Victor said, 200 or so people before, compared to millions now, whos to say what someone has or will do with mere Karate alone. Someone in Karate who emphasizes punching only would probaly end up fighting like a western boxer, someone who emphasizes grabbing people and fighting from there, wrestling or brazilian jiu jitsu, or judo, someone who emphasizes kicking might look like Bill Wallace or TKD. Someone who likes to just pound away with everything they got, Muay Thai or Tito Ortiz

You see it in the various Karate styles themselves, different emphasis created what appears to be uniquely new styles, but they all contain most of the same movements and katas.

Just like the jiu jitsu school that fought against Kanos Judo, they emphasized grappling on the ground.

Its as if BJJ has a copyright on joint locks and the ground or something. Muay Thai doesnt own the elbow or the clinch either. lol

Im sure many of you can imagine two people, dont speak the same language. One a boxer, one okinawan villager. His first impressions would most definitely be this guy knows how to fight. Same scenario, a wrestler. The okinawan would most definitely think that this guy also, knows how to fight. The distinction, the difference, would not be there. Whatever the guy knew before, this would be integrated into him, that style once passed on to someone else is not a mixture of two styles anymore, it is one style, it always was one style, fighting. This is Karate.

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#392266 - 04/29/08 03:38 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Seiken]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I really dont think Karate in the past ever designated a difference between ranges. I think our modern labels on what things are is what causes opposition on the subject.




The problem with that argument is this - How is it that karate is associated with stand-up fighting by so many people, for so long? And why are there so few references to groundfighting in karate before the UFC?
_________________________
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#392267 - 04/29/08 04:47 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:


As far as where I got wrestling for fighting, I got it from working some of the basic applications of wrestling to the fight game that Randy Couture advocates; in addition, I trained a little bit with a no gi BJJ advocate.




so not from your Karate training.




Ed, now that is masterful out of context quoting. You really should make two different posts when quoting from two different posts of mine. This one was specifically in response to Matt's question regarding bjj vs wrestling for fighting. Believe it or not, I am an athlete and have participated in athletics all of my life. I have done combat sports for a while and have knowledge in athletic areas other than karate. In addition, you are taking the Christoper Columbus approach to quoting. I have stated many times that my grappling is NOT tegumi or any form of okinawan grappling. However, I have related it to that practice by quoting sources that relate it to ameteur wrestling and its technqiues. Such as Jokei Kushi stating that tegumi is not unlike amateur wrestling with joint locks and sealing the breath. In addition to Funakoshi stating that tegumi contained techniques similar to the 3/4 nelson from pro wrestling (which at that time was more similar to its american folk wrestling roots). As I have said before and will say again I will NEVER be able to duplicate what the okinawans did due to my cultural and athletic background and its differences from the okinawans. I do Okinawan Karate 2K. But your memory is very selective, now isn't it. All I do is relate principles and practices. I stand by the assertion that any grappling ability gained and used from tegumi and applied by using karate techniques to grapple with an opponent by okinawans in fighting is similar to what I am doing. Unbroken chain of transmision and the like are your terms, not mine. I simply relate the principles and I see and have been shown grappling principles in kata. Simple. I'll see you on the Mayflower.
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#392268 - 04/29/08 04:56 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Seiken]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Jude33 I like your reference to what Miyagi stated but its so vauge it leans me futher to the no wrestling in Karate or Tode or Te Katas. From what I understand Te was just fighting pass down there wasn't any structured Katas until the Chinese mixture was desired. This can't be proven either because WWII destroyed all of the previous records if there were any.

harlan,Seiken and Mattj - Personally I don't think or don't consider it Cross Training if you study 2-3 version of Karate because they are so close you are enhancing your striking/grappling knowledge but not learning a totally different skill or range.

Just like I wouldn't think it would be cross training to box in two separate gyms one that stressed fast foots, start everything with jab combos and the other gym stressing step slide crouched bob & weave slugger style. They are both version of boxing and would have a little bit of both in them. Now Muay Thai would be Cross Training because of the obvious stress of different skills.

And of course any art covering intensive ground fighting is Cross Training imho like Judo/Aiki/Jujitsu/Shuai Jiao as would be Capiero and Gung-fu it requires totalling different methods and skills.

But Karate is Karate you would learn some different things in different style and even like dojos but not different enough that it wouldn't be Karate.

Medualent I don't see that he mis quoted you and it clear up where you actually got your grappling skills, now if you can see these moves in your Kata now is interesting but a Mute point in where your grappling actually came from imho. Ed made his point please make yours if I missed something.


Edited by Neko456 (04/29/08 05:08 PM)

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#392269 - 04/29/08 06:36 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Neko456]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Medualent I don't see that he mis quoted you and it clear up where you actually got your grappling skills, now if you can see these moves in your Kata now is interesting but a Mute point in where your grappling actually came from imho. Ed made his point please make yours if I missed something.




Clear up what? I have ALWAYS stated where my grappling came from. The point is if anyone did not know that they have not been reading what I have been writing. I am not one of the ones like PM who calls his/her grappling practices tegumi. I call it what it is. I simply relate my practices to those of the okinawans, just as others even okinawans have related similar things. From these relationships I see shared principles and techniques. It is from these that I extract my own application. The funny thing is that when I make a statement like, "principles for groundfighting are contained in classical kata" people begin to assume a lot of things rather than relating to what I actually say. Ed has me hocking DVDs through American Samurai, MattJ believes that I hate BJJ and think Tegumo (an combination of Tegumi and okinawn sumo) is the ultimate grappling art and its instruction manual is buried within the Pinan kata, and a host of other things. The fact is I have been saying the same things from day one. I have challenged people to quote me as saying otherwise. Never have I hid my wrestling and submission wrestling background. Never have I hid my training history. In fact, I was the one who informed you guys about all such things from jump. And infact, it shows me how uninformed most people are about principles in martial arts. Is a punch from a standing position that much different from a punch when on the ground? What about a lock? What about an underhook? I believe that the okinawans had methods to fight after being taken down. People here say they didn't, but refuse to believe that if Sokon Matsumura or Tode Sakugawa were taken down they would give up or not have a strategy to deal with this. Victor Smith reports that Tatsuo Shimabuku addressed this in the 1950's which Victor still teaches. I don't know, its just strange.
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#392270 - 04/29/08 06:39 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: harlan]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Huh. Interesting. I would never consider it 'cross training' if trained in 2 seperate karate styles. Not sure if this is 'karate centric' POV or not.




IMO if you train in one style,then another, you are cross training. Even if both the styles are karate.

Goju and Kempo= crosstraining
Shotokan and Marcelbayashi ryu = crosstraining
ATA TKD and ITF tkd = crosstraining
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#392271 - 04/29/08 07:00 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

Huh. Interesting. I would never consider it 'cross training' if trained in 2 seperate karate styles. Not sure if this is 'karate centric' POV or not.




IMO if you train in one style,then another, you are cross training. Even if both the styles are karate.

Goju and Kempo= crosstraining
Shotokan and Marcelbayashi ryu = crosstraining
ATA TKD and ITF tkd = crosstraining




Interesting. Harlan gets the IMO response and I get the you are simply being dishonest response. Very interesting.
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#392272 - 04/29/08 08:19 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: MattJ]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Quote:

Quote:

I really dont think Karate in the past ever designated a difference between ranges. I think our modern labels on what things are is what causes opposition on the subject.




The problem with that argument is this - How is it that karate is associated with stand-up fighting by so many people, for so long? And why are there so few references to groundfighting in karate before the UFC?




Good point, I would imagine though the same reason so little stand up grappling is related to Karate by so many people. Some people do it, some dont. References to groundfighting in Karate cannot be discounted because of UFC. Im sure most would agree there is even more things about Karate not documented than just mere groundfighting, so I dont think that should matter. Motobu had two copies of I think a 4 or 5 volume set on Karate he wrote, one is believed to still be in existance somewhere.


Why would the Okinawans not combine ground fighting into their styles & katas? Every other style of fighting encountered was, wrestling and grappling would of been no different. If it was, why is their no documentation of that? And childhood recollections is not proof either way, except that wrestling, and even wrestling from the ground was encountered. Funakoshi did not create karate or tegumi, and he himself knew so little of its history, so where did it come from? And like most kids, who were they copying from? Most likely the adults, who practiced kung fu. It was distinguishable enough to have its own name, and techniques, and eventually turn into a rule bound competition, so it was not just mere childs play going on in all of what Tegumi was. And some would say that sport alone proves it wasnt in Karate, but that is society at its best, just like Boxing was all inclusive.. eventually seperated from its grappling aspects by adding rules, even John L. Sullivans trainer was a wrestler. And people not involved in the martial art, seperate its contents to create a new thing, add a label here, a name here and alot is lost. Just thinking out loud.

If someone can distinguish without a doubt the specific techniques of the styles proven to influence Karate, then the arguement could be settled. Its not impossible, especially with a joint effort.

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#392273 - 04/29/08 09:03 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
- you learned groundfighting skills from outside sources and related it to Karate. you were not taught goundfighting (in the sense of the submission wrestling link I gave) along with your Karate, nor was it handed down thru your Karate teachers. We already agreed on this, and I thanked you for your honesty.

- stand-up grappling is certainly in Karate and can easily be shown to have been passed down thru Karate lines. I think we've always agreed on this.

- submision westling and grappling have overlapping basis in principles, but the fundamental strategies are different. They are different games. Not to mention a whole different set of body mechanics and leveraging methods. common sense.


therefore, stand-up grappling was passed down thru Karate, but submission wrestling was not- it must be crosstrained for that range of skill. argument over, I agree with you and Victor.


If you are going to try and reword and reopen the argument, then all you'll need to do is tell us which Karate teacher taught you submission wrestling.

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