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#392254 - 04/29/08 06:37 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Actually, I believe Victor Smith did post info about a 1933 publication about karate which illustrated ground based submission/fighting techniques which you dismissed as being influenced from judo, although you had no proof it was.



Interesting.

From my understanding certain early Okinawans during the creation of karate had some quite extensive infleunces from the arts that became known as Japanese Jujitsu.

Later some also crossed trained in judo.

Where was the publication posted? If anybody can bring up the link.

Is this the one?


1933 - Mutsu's "Karate Kempo" - a very complete work describing karate spent the last 1/2 the book showing karate technique applications by style of attack. It does contain technique depictions and descriptions for ground fighting and grappling.


Interesting..

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/29/08 06:45 AM)

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#392255 - 04/29/08 06:49 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Quote:


I also did not say that okinawan karate is used to submission wrestle. Okinawan karate is used to fight. Grappling skill developed from grappling practice be it submission wrestling or tegumi is also used to fight with.




Semantics. If your fight ends up in a wrestling situation then for that portion of the fight you are wrestling.

The point of the discussion is that you feel that Karate being a complete art includes ground grappling/submission skills, which historically came from Tegumi, but as that is not practiced they should come from wrestling as its the closest option you can find.

All very plausible but not how you put it originally. And no I'm not going to trawl all the various threads this debate has spanned to find your original assertions. If you had communicated clearly you wouldn't have been so "misunderstood".

The problem with your now very plausible viewpoint is that it relies on Karate to have been an entirely different art, one with an equally important twin art, to that which was passed on by every single style founder.

It effectivly means karate has been split from a half of its self for reasons unknown and passed on utterly incomplete.
Now some might say that this is no different to the current state where applications weren't passed on, but by my best understanding I'm now convinced that only minimal applications were ever passed on anyway, such that the student was relied on to concentrate on his art and develop mentally as well as physically. What was taught was indeed all that was needed for the individual to make the most of their art. What you claim would mean that what was taught was only half of what was required.

I don't buy it because I can see no plausible reason for such a broad and long lasting conspiracy which seems to have sealed the death of an art that most appeared to wih to preserve and spread.

Hence I still believe there is no historical basis for ground grappling in Karate (outside of Isshinryu or other such arts where it is known that the founder taught it).
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#392256 - 04/29/08 07:32 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Semantics. If your fight ends up in a wrestling situation then for that portion of the fight you are wrestling.




Could be combined wrestling and striking.
Against an attacker using osoto gari or one of its terms used in wrestling could be done with a strike to the throat.

Quote:


The point of the discussion is that you feel that Karate being a complete art includes ground grappling/submission skills, which historically came from Tegumi, but as that is not practiced they should come from wrestling as its the closest option you can find.
Quote:



The term wrestling is such a wide term. Wrestling as in folk style/ greco wrestling that is practiced. Is that wrestling as close to its natural historical form?

Quote:


All very plausible but not how you put it originally. And no I'm not going to trawl all the various threads this debate has spanned to find your original assertions. If you had communicated clearly you wouldn't have been so "misunderstood".





If I am correct and early wrestling/ striking/ weapons methods before greco roman/ pankration had an infleunce on early ti and the grappling methods were isolated and transmitted later by independent grappling training or even held in( with or with out striking/ weapons mechanics) kata or dance on Okinawa then I can see where Medulanet sees the connection with his wrestling background.

If the Japanese or Chinese arts were at some point intitialy infleunced by arts before
greco roman / pankration then again this would have to he effect on someone with a wrestling background,

Quote:


The problem with your now very plausible viewpoint is that it relies on Karate to have been an entirely different art, one with an equally important twin art, to that which was passed on by every single style founder.




Not realy. If different arts went in the creation of karate than perhaps different style founders emphasised what they found worked for them.
Quote:


It effectivly means karate has been split from a half of its self for reasons unknown and passed on utterly incomplete.




The incomplete part I think might be valid.
weapons was trained along with karate at some point in the past. It is rarely done today.
Quote:


Now some might say that this is no different to the current state where applications weren't passed on, but by my best understanding I'm now convinced that only minimal applications were ever passed on anyway, such that the student was relied on to concentrate on his art and develop mentally as well as physically. What was taught was indeed all that was needed for the individual to make the most of their art. What you claim would mean that what was taught was only half of what was required.
Quote:


Perhaps. Jigen ryu was studied by style founders. It isnt realy passed on to the extent of sword use?
Quote:



I don't buy it because I can see no plausible reason for such a broad and long lasting conspiracy which seems to have sealed the death of an art that most appeared to wih to preserve and spread.




Might be due to;
Political climate at that time in Japan.
The move of karate and people competing for their strain of karate in to Education on Okinawa and Japan
The demise of the samuria tradition,
Quote:



Hence I still believe there is no historical basis for ground grappling in Karate (outside of Isshinryu or other such arts where it is known that the founder taught it).



So why did the founder teach it?
because it is required.?. And maybe he knew it was and should be there.?
Pure speculation.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/29/08 07:57 AM)

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#392257 - 04/29/08 07:53 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Shonuff]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Sho,

Though Isshinryu's founder incorporated ground defensive traditions as well as the kata's ground offensive traditions he also incorporated kobudo trainin into the art. There were no distinctions that they were not interrelated.

When you're karate follows a full tradition all of them are applicable against any attack.

Following the Isshinryu tradition, and additional studies, I see the full art in play. So if someone wants to attack MMW (whatever that truly means) all portions of my art are in play, including whatever might be in my hands, sticks, stones, bottles or classical weapons.

I don't find one set of force multipliers stronger than another. Appropriately karate empty hand technique should be sufficient to finish any attack (if one trains to the level to address the zone the attack come from), as well as weapons technique should be able to do the same (again providing one's training is to the level to address that attack.

There is just attack, choice of entry into attack and choice of weapons to close that attack.

Little reason to change your art in the least, but lots of reason to make sure your training is sufficient for the challenge, IMVHO.
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#392258 - 04/29/08 08:04 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

Now, if a student is wrestled to the ground is unable to get a superior position when the fight hits the ground and is unable to prevent his opponent from successfully attacking him then he needs to develop that ability. However, such supplementary training is usually to be developed outside of the dojo.




right, thanks for being honest. so not from Karate training.


Quote:


As far as where I got wrestling for fighting, I got it from working some of the basic applications of wrestling to the fight game that Randy Couture advocates; in addition, I trained a little bit with a no gi BJJ advocate.




so not from your Karate training.



Quote:

Quote:

post WWII karateka in particular have been eager to document their art. show me any (or even pre-WWII for that matter) Karate publication which point out submission wrestling technique with 2 people wrestling on the ground (as defined in the link I gave) as an integral and technical part of their karate and you've made your point.




Actually, I believe Victor Smith did post info about a 1933 publication about karate which illustrated ground based submission/fighting techniques which you dismissed as being influenced from judo, although you had no proof it was.



The one from Hawaii? yes I remember and referenced that earlier. If memory serves, I believe it was Judo-trained karate students illustrated in the photo. I wonder if they ever developed and passed on a judo-karate mixed art? that would be interesting to find out.

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#392259 - 04/29/08 09:46 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Ed wrote - The one from Hawaii? yes I remember and referenced that earlier. If memory serves, I believe it was Judo-trained karate students illustrated in the photo. I wonder if they ever developed and passed on a judo-karate mixed art? that would be interesting to find out.


One example of such a merger is called Kajuekenbo(<=excuse my spelling) which is an non traditional style devised in Hawaii from Karate, Boxing, Judo and Kenpo among other arts, it went to birth numerous other arts.

I see Marcels point on his personal developement which I totally agree with. We only have a difference in defining the orgin. Karate is not a complete art, no more then MMA is or Thai Boxing or BJJ or Judo. Like anything devises by man it has its strengths/striking and weakness/groundfighting in that it emphasis one over the other. Of course it address these attacks but not with enough training to defend against a Trained grappler.
The same could be said of Thai Boxing, Bando or Silat.

CROSS TRAINING helps we all are in agreement here even if some states that its always been in the Katas, as long as we do it live (Jkogas word) its all good.


Edited by Neko456 (04/29/08 09:51 AM)
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#392260 - 04/29/08 11:43 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Neko456]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:




CROSS TRAINING helps we all are in agreement here even if some states that its always been in the Katas, as long as we do it live (Jkogas word) its all good.




Hi Neko.
Or perhaps it was displayed some what clearer in other kata that are no longer in existance.


Original Remarks: This essay was written and prepared by Master Chojun Miyagi especially for the club members when he gave us the lecture "About Karatedo" and its demonstration at the lecture hall on the 4th floor of Meiji Shoten at Sakaisuji, Osaka on 28th January 1936.

We also do not know origin of the name "karate", but it is true that the name "karate" was made recently.


In the old days it was called "Te". At that time people used to practice karate secretly, and a masters taught a few advanced Kata out of all the Kata only to his best disciple. If he had no suitable disciple, he never taught them anyone, and eventually such Kata have completely died out. As a result, there are many Kata which were not handed down.

So I dont think at this moment in time ground fighting in karate can be proven or dis- proven.


Jude

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#392261 - 04/29/08 01:57 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: jude33]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Question, if I train at Karate dojo A, then I goto Karate dojo B, am I cross training? Because thats what it seems like everyone here thinks is cross training.

Personally, the majority of my working applications came from nothing but me, sitting down, thinking. Then, I would go train.

If I train at Judo club A, then goto BJJ club B, is that cross training? Even though the arts contain the same things?

Likewise, punches, elbows, knees, etc.. are apart of Karate also, am I cross training at a Muay Thai or Boxing gym? Im sure no one here would argue the applications come from Kata and Karate also, and the fact that I know them from karate would mean im simply training, not cross training. Sure the emphasis of the training changes, but do you say your cross training in TKD when you isolate your kicking at your Karate dojo?

Does the fact that you change training areas mean your crosstraining? No. Learning new techniques that probaly otherwise would of not existed had you not trained there would mean your cross training, learning new skill sets etc... that do not exist at all without this training. Otherwise, your just training.

My arguement is basically this. Simple analysis of karate and kata movements in general relation to actual combat. Will lead to the development and understanding of techniques and the skills required for execution in all possible scenarios one may find themselves in.

This does not require you to train in anything other than karate and kata. But, In order for you to study in relation to combat, you must train with varying degrees of resistance, this im afraid, can not be found everywhere. My judo instructor emphasized four throws over everything else, some might say from observing that judo only had 4 throws, would that be true?

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#392262 - 04/29/08 01:58 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: jude33]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


So I dont think at this moment in time ground fighting in karate can be proven or dis- proven.








No it can't be proven or disproven, but there is a ton of circumstantial evidence in one corner, and not in the other.

I can't disprove the existence of aliens either, but I still don't have a compelling reason to believe in them


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/29/08 01:59 PM)

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#392263 - 04/29/08 02:13 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Seiken]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Question, if I train at Karate dojo A, then I goto Karate dojo B, am I cross training?




Yes, unless you are doing the exact same style.

Quote:

If I train at Judo club A, then goto BJJ club B, is that cross training? Even though the arts contain the same things?




Yes.

Quote:

am I cross training at a Muay Thai or Boxing gym?




Yes.

Quote:

Sure the emphasis of the training changes, but do you say your cross training in TKD when you isolate your kicking at your Karate dojo?




No. But if you are training at a TKD school as well as your karate school, then yes.
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