FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 38 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
SenseiGregT, sagat, JFawkes, pluckysaga39, sgtdemeo
22911 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
AndyLA 5
Dobbersky 5
Ed_Morris 4
futsaowingchun 3
ergees 2
August
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
New Topics
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Life goes on....
by Dobbersky
08/07/14 05:59 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Recent Posts
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Zombie Zero
08/29/14 10:50 PM
mindfullness meditation
by log1call
08/28/14 02:39 AM
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
08/27/14 09:02 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:58 PM
The Karate punch
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:27 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
attacked from behind
by AndyLA
08/16/14 04:59 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by VDJ
08/15/14 05:46 PM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
Forum Stats
22911 Members
36 Forums
35572 Topics
432483 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 11 of 25 < 1 2 ... 9 10 11 12 13 ... 24 25 >
Topic Options
#392204 - 04/26/08 01:36 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Shonuff]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Quote:

Seiken,

The problem with perceiving one's self as having found the way, is that it invariably closes ones mind to other possibilities.

I imagine most folks here who hold a firm opinion on this subject hold it because just like you and med and jude they have studied and researched and trained, but they have come to different conclusions.

By your posts, a lack of belief in Ground-Karate is the mark of a lack of understanding, and yet in one of your posts you fail to see how a simple basic block can realisticly be applied as a block.

My training and research brought me squarely to the conclusion that schoolboy block/punch karate is one of the most brilliant and effective self defense methods and that most folk who've jumped on the grappling band wagon have missed the point and instead of learning real karate have stretched and reached with every twisted vain shred of hope and delusioned imagining, (such as the notion that a school boy getting some smaller kids to pin him and fighting them off is evidence of groundfighting training in Karate), to turn Karate into some Uber-MMA that was locking up and choking pretenders from the dawn of time.

So who needs to learn from who?

Actually although I disagree with the historical premise for Karate-grappling I think if those are the applications and training you wish to study thats great. We can all learn from each other, but its no good being open minded in only one direction.
You have in your posts shown yourself guilty of precisely the same closed mindedness of which you accuse those who disagree with you. You've failed to acknowledge that while you've achieved some level of knowledge in a particular direction, the rest of us might have as well.




I dont think I have found THE way. I have found MY way. And just like I said in my posts, what other people do is not any more wrong or right than what I do. Just different.

I do not think people who disagree or do not believe in groundkarate as a lack of understanding of Karate, but a lack of understanding of MY karate, and generally like most things, just assumptions. And most assumptions when it comes to ground karate usually relates back to crosstraining in a ground art. Which, in my case, is only correct in certain aspects. Like my boxing, does that mean my karate strikes are crosstrained boxing strikes? Some of them are identical. Which was the point I was trying to make, once youve mixed the ingredients you have a new creation, whatever you call it its just a label.

I agree with you on basic punch/block applications, which is more or less where my current studies are in TKD, but this is just one aspect of what karate has become in many people eyes. And we are talking about ground fighting specifically here. I only brought that up because many people agree that is not the only way to apply the movements, not in anyway a reflection of the effectiveness of that method.

Have I shown myself guilty of closed mindedness? I myself said I agree with all sides of the arguement... Im not saying ive never been content with my conclusions which is not much different than being closed minded, but I really dont feel I am at all on this subject.

See, here we go again with this grappling bandwagon MMA crap. Whos closed minded here? Instead of learning real karate weve twisted what? Hmm...

Ive failed to acknowledge nothing. I think youve failed to read my post clearly.

Top
#392205 - 04/26/08 01:54 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

You guys are like a bunch of old hens in a nursing home.

"Benny Goodman could really shake it!"

" Girl, you are an idiot. He couldn't shake the last drip off count Basie's weiner!!!"





LOL!!

Zach,

Ever feel like you are talking to a wall?




Brian, don't be so hard on yourself. I don't think talking to you on FA.com is THAT bad.




I'm not the one going round and round with him over my twisted history in karate,Marcel.

_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




Top
#392206 - 04/26/08 01:58 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

You guys are like a bunch of old hens in a nursing home.

"Benny Goodman could really shake it!"

" Girl, you are an idiot. He couldn't shake the last drip off count Basie's weiner!!!"





LOL!!

Zach,

Ever feel like you are talking to a wall?




Brian, don't be so hard on yourself. I don't think talking to you on FA.com is THAT bad.




I'm not the one going round and round with him over my twisted history in karate,Marcel.






Right, so that would be more like talking to a merry go round, rather than a wall. So if talking to me is not like talking to a wall, then who would the wall be, exactly?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

Top
#392207 - 04/26/08 07:23 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
you mentioned earlier that you never claimed ties to tegumi, yet you reference the term whenever the topic of groundfighting in karate comes up. P. McCarthy also never claims ties to tegumi, he just uses the term 'Tegumi' to describe his own set of push-hands type drills. also, for the record, he was the translator for Nagamine's 'Tales...' yet doesn't take responsibility for the rewording of 'Sumo' to 'Tegumi'...which he said the publisher/editor Tuttle was responsible for....and Tuttle says they dont know, so I guess we'll never know. All we know is the term 'tegumi' is a term okinawan used for a informal form of childhood playfighting that has less of a direct connection to Karate than Okinawan folk dancing.

...but nobody is inventing a set of drills called 'Odori' or naming chapters in Karate books 'Odori Masters' - I wonder why.

karate masters have demonstrated odori ...none have demonstrated tegumi, nor have they ever demonstrated submission wrestling on the ground. These were masters wishing to spread karate, yet they don't include groundfighting (two on the ground scrambling for dominant position) in it's presentation or syllabus.

Nothing wrong with people adding that kind of groundfighting to their art - but they can't claim it came thru the handed-down karate training with any credability.

before the tactic of switching words is used, karate did and does have stand-up grappling, and tactic of dominating each other's balance - including one throwing another to the ground. It does not and did not pass along the art of groundfighting and submission wrestling where 2 people are on the ground struggling for positional dominance.

people really really want that historical link - but there is none. so what they do is learn these skills from outside influence and call it 'tegumi' since they apparently think using a foreign term for childhood playfighting will confuse the issue enough to persuade that historical link.

thats exactly whats going on when people throw around the term 'tegumi'....either knowingly or unknowingly.

In your case med, you wish to create the image of your karate being 'all that' with historical justification. In the case of authors re-wording things, we ask why, then see seminars and DVD's being sold under the name of the rewording...and the motive starts to make sense.


Let's exclude your karate from the picture for a sec, Med:
before 1993, karate's selling point was 100% as a standing, striking art. after 1993, commercial venturists saw the ground-game that karate was mi$$ing out on.

it's as simple as that. follow the money.

Top
#392208 - 04/26/08 07:43 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
btw, the whole reason I bother to argue this every time it comes up is that I think it's important to realize that Karate as a fighting art is (I believe anyway) intended to address an initial attack while standing.

cross-training the ground range is all good stuff for well-rounded defense, but once someone starts muddying the waters by saying it's always been there when it hasn't - it changes the intent and therefore karate's optimization of what (I think) is it's real applied purpose...which is, to defend oneself from initial atack while standing.

but that's only my view. I admittedly have a narrowly focused definition of what karate addresses. however that narrower definition prevents me from having to demonstrate rediculous things like how a ground ankle-lock submission comes from naihanchi.

Top
#392209 - 04/26/08 08:11 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Shonuff]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:





I imagine most folks here who hold a firm opinion on this subject hold it because just like you and med and jude they have studied and researched and trained, but they have come to different conclusions.



So who needs to learn from who?

Actually although I disagree with the historical premise for Karate-grappling I think if those are the applications and training you wish to study thats great. We can all learn from each other, but its no good being open minded in only one direction.
You have in your posts shown yourself guilty of precisely the same closed mindedness of which you accuse those who disagree with you. You've failed to acknowledge that while you've achieved some level of knowledge in a particular direction, the rest of us might have as well.




Hi Shonuff.


From my studies to date the different methods of empty hand fighting that is now known as karate and weapons were trained together on Okinawa.

This goes back to the known creators of the art we now know as karate.

Teachers were selected on their skills.

So a teacher/ and what would now be termed a karate ka who was proffecient in say the Bo
would be known for this and sought out to teach the Bo.

Kata with and with out weapons were/ are used to transmit/ record the knowledge of techniques and principles.

Perhaps?
With the bringing in and aiming of karate in to the education system weapons werent part of the curriculem.
It seems to be correct.


And perhaps neither were things such the ground fighting recorded in kata that was actualy displayed by the person doing the kata actualy rolling about on the floor.

So the arts that are now known under one term as karate went through changes.

Weapons training didint.

So to my knowledge.

The display of rolling about on the floor

with regards to ground fighing

that is considered should be shown in certain kata

might be held in certain intended empty handed forms that

were also trained along side the weapons forms.


There is one I am looking in to at the present.


There is another line on some parts of kata that is taught in the present day with regards to weapons I am following but that is a different topic.


But like anything else posted on the internet it would have to be proven beyond doubt.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/26/08 08:41 AM)

Top
#392210 - 04/26/08 08:17 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Hi

Ed.

Regards the groundfighting in tekki.

A hyperthetical situation but I think an interesting one.
Wouldnt it be interesting if in the future you or another teacher had to demonstrate weapons training techniques, GF and stand up grappling/ striking etc as part of the techniques in certain kata?

Because they might have been the intention of the creator of the kata?

Jude back to research.


Edited by jude33 (04/26/08 08:24 AM)

Top
#392211 - 04/26/08 10:35 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Quote:



Nothing wrong with people adding that kind of groundfighting to their art - but they can't claim it came thru the handed-down karate training with any credability.


Let's exclude your karate from the picture for a sec, Med:
before 1993, karate's selling point was 100% as a standing, striking art. after 1993, commercial venturists saw the ground-game that karate was mi$$ing out on.

it's as simple as that. follow the money.




Ed, why can it not be handed down through karate? In other words, any bunkai anyone comes up with can not be claimed to be handed down thru karate training with any credability either. Its no different than me studying a movement and coming up with ground fighting techniques. Essentially, the movement I studied was a Karate technique. The technique developed was ground fighting. My karate teacher taught me the movement, not post 1990s marketing, a BJJ or ground fighting expert. Me, studying a movement, that came from Karate.

100% standing striking art pre 1993? Really? Interesting,

Your telling us what karate is and isnt? Is that your personal interpretation also? Your karate is handed down thru what? Your karate instructor teaching you whos applications? Do you study movements and come up with applications? Thats not Karate Ed! Its not an unbroken line in karate anymore than groundfighting is an unbroken line.

Basically you have to be an Okinawan karate master to develop something thru karate then right Ed? Unless someone else taught it to us it couldnt be Karate could it? You might as well throw away the majority of applications you would consider Karate, since most of them are made up by the Bunkai commercial venturist... its as simple as that. follow the money.

Honestly, someone gives you a hammer. With that hammer you can do many things. But the person who gave you the hammer says ONLY NAILS SHALL BE POUNDED! One day you realize what a great tool you have and discover all these things you can do with the hammer. Was the hammer handed down to thru someone else? Or was the hammer giving to me by outside influences?

Technically Ed, you cant argue this anymore. Since I have taught groundfighting applications to new students of Karate. Therefor, now according to you, groundfighting is in karate, it has been passed on to someone. See how easy that is?

Top
#392212 - 04/26/08 01:19 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ed, let me ask you a question. Do yo believe there are no knee rides, striking a downed opponent while you are on one knee or applying a joint lock to a downed opponent while you are on one knee in karate?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

Top
#392213 - 04/26/08 03:21 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Ed, let me ask you a question. Do yo believe there are no knee rides, striking a downed opponent while you are on one knee or applying a joint lock to a downed opponent while you are on one knee in karate?






ARGH!

I think this is ground that's already been covered - so to speak, most folks seem to see techniques such as what you're talking about as not directly part of of the category of "groundfighting".

You can argue the definition all you want, but you are really going in circles here, this is NOT what anyone is talking about when we reference the controversial subject of groundfighting in Karate.

Quit it with the vagueness!


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/26/08 03:22 PM)

Top
Page 11 of 25 < 1 2 ... 9 10 11 12 13 ... 24 25 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki, Ronin1966 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Stun Guns
Variety of stun gun devices for your protection

Buy Pepper Spray
Worry about your family when you’re not around? Visit us today to protect everything you value.

Koryu.com
Accurate information on the ancient martial traditions of the Japanese samurai

C2 Taser
Protect yourself and loved ones from CRIME with the latest C2 Taser citizen model. Very effective.

 

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga