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#392164 - 04/25/08 02:13 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

It's a bit like someone saying they got stronger due to their karate 'hojo undo' training, when in fact they were a member of gold's gym for years before ever touching a chishi.




And that is where you are misinterpretting what I am saying Ed. Your analogy is incorrect. I never claimed to do tegumi. In fact I stated that there is no way for me to duplicate the okinawan training and I do Okinawan Karate 2K. However, I did state that there are similarities between okinawan grappling traditions and the wrestling for fighting that is seen today. In fact, there are much more similarities from wrestling view of grappling for fighting than a bjj one. Therefore, your analogy would be more accurate to say that I developed strength through through modern weight training much like the okinawans did through their own weight training which utilized hojo undo. Do you see where this analogy is more accurate to what I am saying than yours is? And I believe this really shows how you are not quite seeing what I am saying yet.
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#392165 - 04/25/08 02:22 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Shonuff, rather than MEANT to be used it is they CAN be used. For example, karate was not MEANT to be used to mug people, but it CAN be used to do such. I can take the reverse punch as sucker punch a guy and take his money. The principles are there.

As for applications sure. Stacked hands usually imply grappling in kata. In Pinan Yondan, all naihanchi, Kusanku, Rohai, Passai, etc. The commone usage of this can be a guillotine choke or a shoulder lock. Now, these can be used standing, or if the fighters fall can be continued on the ground. Or maybe the knee drop in pinan godan where there is a shoulder throw followed up by a shoulder/wrist lock on the ground with your knee on your opponent or on the ground. Or maybe the leg crossing of Naihachi combined with underhooks used as a way to "shake off" your opponent if they have you down which can force a scramble after you switch your hips.
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#392166 - 04/25/08 02:36 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Quote:

Shonuff, rather than MEANT to be used it is they CAN be used. For example, karate was not MEANT to be used to mug people, but it CAN be used to do such.




But that's what WE have been saying all along, about groundfighting and kata.

Because it can be used that way doesn't mean that it was.
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#392167 - 04/25/08 02:39 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Or maybe the knee drop in pinan godan where there is a shoulder throw followed up by a shoulder/wrist lock on the ground with your knee on your opponent or on the ground. Or maybe the leg crossing of Naihachi combined with underhooks used as a way to "shake off" your opponent if they have you down which can force a scramble after you switch your hips.




That is the two I sometimes practice( with variations) and I think are def used in ground work.
The question that is going to get asked is why wasnt it trained that way in karate before 199?

Matt.

Quote:



Because it can be used that way doesn't mean that it was.




It also can mean it can be used that way and it is thought it was used that way in days gone by. There are things that I think I am uncovering in kata that a person would say the same thing about. The differnce is the things I am working on seems to have a lineage that is still in tact and goes straight back to the early days of karate and to one of the creaters of karate.

And I am afraid untill I can totaly verify my findings by contacting the person who has the lineage then any questions will be stonewalled.

But the point is if that can be proven then so might GF in
kata at some time.

Jude

Jude off to work soon while this debate keeps going.



Edited by jude33 (04/25/08 02:53 PM)

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#392168 - 04/25/08 02:52 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA


Eventually a certain form of proficiency would naturally occur through experience. Should that person be seen in the same light as someone who doesnt do it or just started? No, so they get a label like everything else does. It also does not mean someone didnt formalize the techniques and movements that might have been, into what is Tegumi.

Its clearly evident that alot of people on this board are ignoring some of the recent findings on Karate history. Is it so easy to discredit people like Pat McCarthy? Karate was the okinawan MMA... at least five seperate fighting arts were practiced on okinawa and eventually became Karate, why do so many people deny this?

Is the backyard baseball any less baseball than the majors? Nope.

As for groundcontrol and dominant positions. Do you honestly think the people who achieved submissions were doing so from a bad position? Probaly not, so why would the Okinawans ignore where the winner achieved victory from? They wouldnt.

Funakoshi also states their was more than one way to win a wrestling match, and one specifically being by submission tap out. And he also states they sometimes started with you laying down on the ground being pinned, if this doesnt force you to wrestle for dominant position I dont know what will. If this isnt proof of groundfighting I dont know what is either.

So many people ignore the obvious, positons in BJJ are nothing new. The guard? The mount? Does anyone here have sex? For petes sake, everyone is quick to disregard school karate block/punch applications, but when people give you realistic noteworthy bunkai they are hounded for touting Karate as something its not.

No one here will be happy unless they find it for themselves, no one wants to believe anyone else, no one wants to believe someone who has actually walked the path to find the truth without being biased. You want real information? You got it. You want proof and verification? You got it. It just takes an open mind to stop denying it and listen to what some of these people have to say.

Arts that later became Judo, Muay Thai, Okinawan Sumo, ChinNa, Kobudo. Were a part of Karate before BJJ and MMA were even a thought. Anyone who puts the history together will find it themselves, but most people wont, its easy to deny, its easy to not do the work. Its easy to say Karate groundfighting is a fairy tale, its hard to go out and prove something when so much has been lost and so many people are waiting for you to fail.

How many of you are actively researching and seeking the answer on a daily basis? Most of you probaly made up your mind a long time ago, so nothing will make you sway. How many of you actually cross reference material you find with the historical societies who deal with truisms of the country?

I find it funny how most of you have no clue what Okinawan Sumo even looks like, considering its still practiced today on Okinawa. That just shows how much effort goes into these keyboard Karate masters research.

If all karate was a hodgepodge of whatever training people got their hands on, then why is it so hard to believe wrestling wasnt included? If karate WAS a homemade stew, then we should feel lucky that itosu, funakoshi, mabuni, nagamine and such systemized it for us then. Its our luck we have kata to reflect and draw from then isnt it? This hodgepodge would not exclude groundfighting because BJJ and UFC like most do today, they would have included it.

I dont see little kids in their backyards devising Kata, I see adult fighters doing that. And its the adults that passed on these kata, kata that were made in a time when computers and books, even the ability to read was probaly scarce.

I know a 7 year old who speaks truths about mathematics, because of that should I deny other mathematicians research? Think of Funakoshi as the 7 year old, and McCarthy as the mathematicians, college professor if you will. Hes done the work Funakoshi and most of you are not willing to do.

Even so, if someone like medulanet sees applications of groundfighting in kata based on his wrestling experience, someone most of you seem to think is off his rocker, why would someone like Itosu not see it? I find it hard to believe he wouldnt. There is more proof that groundfighting is as much apart of karate than there is proof it wasnt.

Before anyone replies to me, your not going to believe what I say anymore than the drug addict who thinks hes not a druggie will. You have to put some work into it yourself. Just searching on the internet isnt work either, go, travel, train, read, listen, its the journey that matters remember?

( after reading this I realized how offensive I was ... I dont mean anyone harm, im just passionate about this subject and decided not to erase anything because I took awhile to type it and time should not be wasted, forgive me anyone who is offended)

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#392169 - 04/25/08 02:59 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Seiken]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:




How many of you are actively researching and seeking the answer on a daily basis?



Not every day but I do. Uncovered some interesting things.
Amongst other things daggers made in other countries centuries ago found in digs on Okinawa?
Then ponder and research those points.


Time will tell

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/25/08 03:05 PM)

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#392170 - 04/25/08 03:16 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Seiken]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
*sound of screeching brakes*

Seiken -

Quote:

So many people ignore the obvious, positons in BJJ are nothing new. The guard? The mount?




No, no. I am not disputing the fact that you may find the mount/guard in karate (or in your bed ) sometimes. You see untrained people fall into them unintentionally all the time. What I am disputing is that dedicated knowledge of using those positions was present in karate in the early days. It does not seem to be. I have seen some of Pat McCarthy's work on tegumi (he has chimed in on some threads here), and while I find it useful and interesting, the historical connections seem as forced as what medulanet tries to do.

Quote:

Even so, if someone like medulanet sees applications of groundfighting in kata based on his wrestling experience, someone most of you seem to think is off his rocker




Again, not disputing that he can find connections, or that it is good training. Just disputing it's existence in karate before 1991.
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#392171 - 04/25/08 03:41 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Again, not disputing that he can find connections, or that it is good training. Just disputing it's existence in karate before 1991.




Matt, just a side note. I tried to point it out before, but I just wanted you to know that the UFC started in 1993. I'm not sure what happened in 1991 that you are referencing. But I know how picky some people get on here when people mistakenly mistate some facts.
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#392172 - 04/25/08 04:09 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Seiken]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:



Eventually a certain form of proficiency would naturally occur through experience. Should that person be seen in the same light as someone who doesnt do it or just started? No, so they get a label like everything else does. It also does not mean someone didnt formalize the techniques and movements that might have been, into what is Tegumi.

Its clearly evident that alot of people on this board are ignoring some of the recent findings on Karate history. Is it so easy to discredit people like Pat McCarthy? Karate was the okinawan MMA... at least five seperate fighting arts were practiced on okinawa and eventually became Karate, why do so many people deny this?





I appreciate McCarthy's groundbreaking work, and i've certainly never ignored it, but alot of it is very theoretical to my mind, and by his own admission KU is not some unbroken lineage directly from ancient Karate, he was influenced (among other things) by koryu Jujutsu in it's creation wasn't he?

I've never read anything by McCarthy that's so vague as the stuff you guys are promoting, he presents historical findings as what they are and makes clear what is modern interpretation and what is in the historical record, what is probable and what is maybe less probable.


I think you are confusing "recent historical findings" with someone's (admittedly very well-informed) extrapolated opinion of how Karate was once trained.

If there's now some new volume of information on historical tegumi, Ti, and related practice outside of conjecture, by all means i'd like to see it, what you mention above I could just read on the KU site, and honestly it doesn't do alot for the debate we're having here as far as I can see.

I feel that maybe scholars like McCarthy would not appreciate it if we just accepted their words and findings unquestioningly.

I'm really hoping Jim is able to talk to McCarthy and get some feedback on this, any word on that?

Maybe he can explain how we are all being closed-minded idiots by not uncritically accepting what you guys are saying;) Hell, maybe he will say that.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/25/08 04:37 PM)

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#392173 - 04/25/08 04:40 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Matt, just a side note. I tried to point it out before, but I just wanted you to know that the UFC started in 1993. I'm not sure what happened in 1991 that you are referencing. But I know how picky some people get on here when people mistakenly mistate some facts.




And while I appreciate you trying to read my mind, wasn't 1991 the year YOU started karate? But I understand if you didn't get the joke. It was a bit vague.

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