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#392154 - 04/25/08 02:59 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Definitely Zach. I am being loose with my interpretation because that is what works for me. Think about it. There are allusions all over karate history regarding grappling as supplemental training for a karateka. I personally don't know exactly what tegumi entailed, however, if I wanted to I could probably develop a half assed system based on the scant info there is. But I don't believe that is adequate. Therefore I take it more as a suggestion from the karate masters from the past. If you want to excel at karate you should probably know how to grapple as well. Kind of like if you want to excel at karate you should develop strong limbs and a strong core. Training regimines that develop these things develop the ability to apply the techniques and fighting principles contained within the kata of okinawan karate.
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#392155 - 04/25/08 03:17 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Hey I agree with you 100% in a functional sense, i've been pursuing the same thing in my own training. I've learned a ton about my Karate from just doing newaza against my teacher.

Difference is i'm not gonna credit my kata for my crosstraining, and say it's "part of Karate" for me to practice newaza.

On a personal level it certainly can be, but I think it's intellectually dishonest in terms of public presentation to present outside training as something that has "always been there", even if that's true in some paralell sense, just seems like marketing to me.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/25/08 03:21 AM)

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#392156 - 04/25/08 03:43 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Hey I agree with you 100% in a functional sense, i've been pursuing the same thing in my own training. I've learned a ton about my Karate from just doing newaza against my teacher.

Difference is i'm not gonna credit my kata for my crosstraining, and say it's "part of Karate" for me to practice newaza.

On a personal level it certainly can be, but I think it's intellectually dishonest in terms of public presentation to present outside training as something that has "always been there", even if that's true in some paralell sense, just seems like marketing to me.




Answer this. Are you saying there are no chokes, joint locks, or hooking techniques in kata? Then answer this. Are you saying that no techniques from kata can be used on the floor? If your answer to both questions are no, then what is so dishonest about my views on karate, classical kata, and supplemental training employed by karate men of the 1800s?
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#392157 - 04/25/08 03:55 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:

Hey I agree with you 100% in a functional sense, i've been pursuing the same thing in my own training. I've learned a ton about my Karate from just doing newaza against my teacher.

Difference is i'm not gonna credit my kata for my crosstraining, and say it's "part of Karate" for me to practice newaza.

On a personal level it certainly can be, but I think it's intellectually dishonest in terms of public presentation to present outside training as something that has "always been there", even if that's true in some paralell sense, just seems like marketing to me.




Answer this. Are you saying there are no chokes, joint locks, or hooking techniques in kata? Then answer this. Are you saying that no techniques from kata can be used on the floor? If your answer to both questions are no, then what is so dishonest about my views on karate, classical kata, and supplemental training employed by karate men of the 1800s?




Sigh....having chokes, locks, etc. doesn't imply grappling for position on the ground to apply them.

My take on it is (being frank here so don't get upset) is that you have a tendency to be a bit of an elitist about your style and lineage(not uncommon so hey live it up), and you use your own skills somehow as proof that karate, and in particular your lineage of Matsubayashi is utterly "complete", and needs no crosstraining, or rather you attempt to put crosstraining under the umbrella of Matsubayashi.

Again I respect your background, training, I even respect your opinion believe or not!

I just don't agree with your...parsing of skillsets for lack of a better term.

Going to bed now, have fun ya fanatic!


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/25/08 04:01 AM)

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#392158 - 04/25/08 04:09 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Yes, I understand what you are saying, however, there are documented cases of Nagamine's teachers prescribing supplemental (cross)training to improve one's ability in karate. To say that such supplemental (cross)training was purely a modern post 1993 invention would be dishonest or simply misinformed.
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#392159 - 04/25/08 08:01 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
It never ends.........
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#392160 - 04/25/08 11:52 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: BrianS]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

It never ends.........




NEVER!!! Karate 4 Life! No, scratch that. Karate 4 Ever!
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#392161 - 04/25/08 01:21 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
the only disagreement is what is credited. we agree submission wrestling can be a supplimental to karate training.

The only deceptive part is, to take a modern wrestling art, then apply those skills to karate training (ie kata interpretation) and claim that the kata has been passed down with those wrestling techniques intact.

It's a bit like someone saying they got stronger due to their karate 'hojo undo' training, when in fact they were a member of gold's gym for years before ever touching a chishi.

sure, weight-lifting is weight-lifting I suppose, but the point is, the training didn't come from karate - the person might wish to make people think it did, hence they choose to credit their strength-gains with the term 'hojo undo' instead of saying they cross-trained weightlifting at Gold's.

people want to package and credit their outside influence into and under one name - that way it makes it seem less disjointed and more authentic. But before style names, associated snobbiness, market share, and copyright protections of curriculum, thats what people did - just a hodgepodge of whatever training they got their hands on, and making it their own.

It's great people are still willing to do that today...it's not so great they sell it as if their brand will unlock ancient secrets to you thru tapping into their unbroken chain of transmission.

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#392162 - 04/25/08 01:22 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Med,

I haven't read the whole thread as quite frankly this discussion has gotten so old it needs it's own pyramid, if I cover ground that someone else has already covered I apologise.

Funakoshi seems to me adamant that tegumi, even when he ws a boy(1870's - 80s), was totally seperate thing from Karate. He mentioned no systemisation of tegumi, there was nothing to convey the sense that tegumi was "trained" in the way modern wrestlers train in wrestling, more it seems kids went out and said "lets wrestle".
I used to do exactly this kind of thing as a kid with my friends and yes it meant I could do one or two wrist locks and a couple of trips quite well, but it wasn't something that made my Karate any better.

In addition Funakoshi's only definite benefit from his childhood Tegumi matches was the development of determination. Funny thing is that growing up as someone bigger and stronger than my peers I often engaged in precisely the training he described.

I am completely convinced, Tegumi was just playfighting.


Quote:

Here it is again. Grappling training is a supplementary excercise of karate used to develop wrestling skill to apply techniques from kata such as joint manipulations, takedowns, and chokes of karate.





Here you seem to be saying that just like ippon kumite and sparring, grappling is an exercise done in karate class to improve the overall ability of the practictioner.

Nobody disagrees with this as far as I can tell.
I don't think it was especially common before UFC, but I don't doubt it was done in some places.

Supremor mentioned some Shotokan folk who seemed to be doing this, but noted that they were not skilled. I think this is likely due to their lack of training in a specific grappling art and so missing the specific points that make wrestling wrestling and not karate.

That training in a seperate art for the benefit of overall ability is called cross training, as you cross different arts.

I think the disagreement with you comes from the notion that there are kata techniques which are meant to be used on the ground in the same way BJJ and Judo Newaza uses techniques on the ground.

If you are not saying that then there really is no further basis for argument that I can see.

If you are saying that there are kata techniques meant to be used on the ground as described above, then I disgree due to the kata's lack of ground positioning and a total lack of appropriate context in my eyes.

Med, you have often mentioned that your grappling background allowed you to spot grappling applications in karate kata (although I believe you said that your teacher who had learned under Nagamine didn't teach any of that to you), can you give me examples of specific applications?
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#392163 - 04/25/08 01:40 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Shonuff]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
good points. I picture formal Okinawan sumo matches with kids watching, then going back home and trying stuff out - since it's not formalized, they just call what they do a generic name like 'tegumi'.

sounds like kids fairly recently mimicing WWF and calling it 'backyard wrestling'. same thing.


which is why the 'tegumi' media hype recently is so rediculous. and also why the renaming of Nagamine's chapter title in his English translated book in 'Tales...' from 'Sumo' to 'Tegumi' is ludicrous. The chapter was mainly about Sumo masters with a short paragraph mention of childhood memories wrastling in the dirt. The term 'Tegumi master' is as silly as saying 'Backyard wrestling sifu'.

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