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#392184 - 04/25/08 05:58 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Victor Smith]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Matt,

I know I've mentioned this before, but in the late 50's Shimabuku Tatsuo was teaching counters to the mount in his Isshinryu. They remain part of Isshinryu's studies.

Karate was never totally bound by what is or isn't in kata, kata is simply the major tool for karate development.

Why did he teach them, likely as much as he had experience working with the Japanese military who frequently would turn to their common judo training and wanted to have a response. Of course that's just supposition on my part, but I can make a logical case.

Now in no case is Isshinryu, which does contain various ground fighting techniques, a system that promotes ground fighting. In fact as I see it the proper use of Isshinryu is to break those who want to go to the ground.

But what happens each time these discussions start making general stements they always 100% wrong because no general statement describes the reality of karate or any art.

They may be accurate to one's experiences, but the arts have always been founded by what happens when something is outside of your experience.

Frankly I get rather depressed at the continual misrepresentation of so many topics. Funakoshi Sensei in his writings was describing his past. I've seen a little of what current Okinawan sumo looks like, and it seems like fun, and if that was where the past on Okinawa was, I can see how karate represented an entirely different tradition.

But a reference by Funakoshi Sensei or by Nagamine Sensei does not really share the depth of what Okinawan Sumo represents.

Likewise if someone translates one's work into English and makes their own choice which terms to use, that't there business. McCartny Sensei did nothing wrong when he translated one way whether's like it or not.

THere's nothing stopping any of you from re-translating the work and getting the Nagamine family permission to publish that translation.

There really is no correct way to translate, any more than there really is a correct way to spell or prounounce a word in English. Your school teachers incorrect opinions not withstanding. The dictionary is actually a society that studies word usage and pronuncation and changes spellings, pronunciaiton and meanings as usage in society does.

It hard enough to keep the eye on the ball without mixing other issues into the discussion.

Back about 100 years ago (the time frame when Funakoshi was already a practicing karate-ka for a long time) there were what 100 or 200 practicing karate-ka? No idea but hard to imagine many of them in 1908.

Now 100 yeras later there are what 90,000,000 worldwide. Do you think many have any link to what the past was in their studies.

Okinawa karate always moved each generation in what the art contains. If you have the time and energy to incorporate say Sambo, fine. If you don't have the inclination, fine.

The truth is it is who does it to whom first, and more simply why does anyont think the purpose of karate was ever to fight someone from the front (as in sport).

Logically the real purpose of karate is to identify when you need to use it and then tactically learn how to do so when the opponent isn't looking or expecting it. Thus striking from behind.




Yes, Victor, but you know if you are referencing anything that is done in MMA it was only ever done in any karate derived art after 1993.
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#392185 - 04/25/08 06:17 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:


Obviously one's Karate is what it is, but whay this move to NOT acknowledge sources?




Okay Zach, when have I not acknowledged my sources? And who is not acknowledging their sources here in these discussions?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#392186 - 04/25/08 06:43 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Quote:

Quote:


Like I said, if you take a look at what influenced karate, you will find nothing different than what McCarthy, Medulanet, Jude, and others have been saying. But no one is going to just believe it, do the work yourself. Put the whole picture together on your own terms, just make sure you leave no loose ends.




I've "taken a look" at it, believe it or not i've read a fair amount on the subject myself, and I train with people who are plenty knowledgable who i talk with about stuff sometimes. Nothing you are saying is any revelation to me whatsoever, no offense.

Why is it NOT important to acknowledge the variety of sources from which modern Karate practice comes? I always see people trying to say "no, it's all part of my Karate" instead of saying "I learned this here"....why is that exactly?

Obviously one's Karate is what it is, but whay this move to NOT acknowledge sources?




I do acknowledge it. Read my post again. Which was part of my point, if this is what Karate is becoming, it should not be called MMA or crosstraining. It IS karate.

And I dont think you HAVE to crosstrain to learn any usefulness from karate when it comes to groundfighting. That point of view feeds the divinity of martial arts, which is bullpoopy. Man creates martial arts, not gods.

Ill be damned if someone tells me my grappling doesnt work because I call it karate, or tkd, or anything else. When you get choked out or your shoulder pops you wont be thinking BJJ or karate I can promise you that. Its just labels. If I am in my training hall, practicing groundfighting, what gives you the right to call it crosstraining? Thats just stupid, im not training or crossing anything anywhere, you are, in your mind, with more labels. You have no clue where or how those techniques developed into efficient movements applied by me. Do TKD guys run around saying I cross train Taekyun and Karate? Once you mix something you have a new entity. It becomes one. Chem Lab 101 :/

Honestly, do BJJ guys ever create anything new? Yup. Do they ever encounter techniques theyve never seen before? Yup. Do they have to deal with them right then and there? Yup. Thats called improvising, and is a sign of someone who understands principles and their relation to fighting. And those techniques that do develop become BJJ. Just like an application I might find training one night, that application, even if it happened to be in judo or wrestling or BJJ before, is now apart of Karate. And it doesnt take outside influence to come to these discoveries, if thats the truth then how did anything start in the first place? Thought.

How many people are even aware of Rolls Gracies influence on todays BJJ? He added things to BJJ he learned from wrestling. Do the BJJ guys run around saying I cross train in wrestling? Even the famous triangle was taken directly from a position out of a japanese book being studied by one of his students. So now everyone who does BJJ crosstrained in a japanese book eh? lol...

Yes, it is all part of my karate. Why is it exactly that I should give credit to something else, when it was the study of Karate in the first place that gave me my skills? Acknowledge sources? No one deserves any acknowledgement for work I put in analyzing movements and studying human physiology just because you think im wrong, or the gracies wanting to claim they invented gravity. If thats the case, then my karate was crosstrained with the american education system, thousands of articles and publications including books on various martial arts, physics and human biology, a pencil and a notebook. Oh, and I crosstrained in human creativity too. Sorry...

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#392187 - 04/25/08 07:08 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Seiken]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Dude, I have no BJJ training, and I didn't even mention BJJ anywhere, where are you getting the BJJ/MMA stuff from?

I have no training in either, just Goju and a small amount of Judo with my Goju teacher, and some Danzan Ryu Jujitsu.

It has nothing to do with modern MMA stuff, just be honest aboutt he origins of things.

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#392188 - 04/25/08 07:31 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Seiken]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Yes, it is all part of my karate. Why is it exactly that I should give credit to something else, when it was the study of Karate in the first place that gave me my skills? Acknowledge sources? No one deserves any acknowledgement for work I put in analyzing movements and studying human physiology just because you think im wrong, or the gracies wanting to claim they invented gravity. If thats the case, then my karate was crosstrained with the american education system, thousands of articles and publications including books on various martial arts, physics and human biology, a pencil and a notebook. Oh, and I crosstrained in human creativity too. Sorry...




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#392189 - 04/25/08 07:53 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
So hey guys, before we get all bogged down in semantics again, which of you learned your grappling from Kata?

Also which one of you learned your grappling from Tegumi?

Which one of you did some Okinawan Sumo?

Oh yeah that's right, you used modern training methods not directly called "Karate"...so where do you guys disagree with me exactly?

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#392190 - 04/25/08 07:59 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Seiken]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Seiken -

Quote:

And I dont think you HAVE to crosstrain to learn any usefulness from karate when it comes to groundfighting. That point of view feeds the divinity of martial arts, which is bullpoopy.




Oddly enough, many people interpret THAT point of view as trying to "feed divinity" about the styles that people train in where they do NOT acknowledge outside influences.

Quote:

Ill be damned if someone tells me my grappling doesnt work because I call it karate, or tkd, or anything else.




No one has said that here.
Effectiveness is not the question - historical accuracy is.

Quote:

Honestly, do BJJ guys ever create anything new? Yup. Do they ever encounter techniques theyve never seen before? Yup. Do they have to deal with them right then and there? Yup. Thats called improvising, and is a sign of someone who understands principles and their relation to fighting. And those techniques that do develop become BJJ.




Again, you are twisting the argument here. No one is doubting evolution within a style. Except when a heretofore non-existant paradigm seems to emerge conveniently the same time another totally different style does.

Quote:

How many people are even aware of Rolls Gracies influence on todays BJJ?




Pretty much everybody that trains BJJ.

Quote:

Do the BJJ guys run around saying I cross train in wrestling?




Many of them do, and yes, they acknowledge it.

Quote:

Why is it exactly that I should give credit to something else, when it was the study of Karate in the first place that gave me my skills?




Because it's the honest thing to do. Did karate give you your groundfighting skills or did you pick those up from wrestling and add them into your karate? Nothing wrong with that - hell, even medulanet admits his wrestling has informed his karate. But to not acknowledge it? Dishonest, IMO.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#392191 - 04/25/08 08:01 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

So hey guys, before we get all bogged down in semantics again, which of you learned your grappling from Kata?

Also which one of you learned your grappling from Tegumi?

Which one of you did some Okinawan Sumo?

Oh yeah that's right, you used modern training methods not directly called "Karate"...so where do you guys disagree with me exactly?




Well, it would be nice if you let ME answer the question you posed and for some reason answered yourself. In fact, as far as my grappling as it relates to fighting. I learnerd chokes and joint locks from kata. I was able to grapple for position to apply such things with skill I gained from wrestling. I deepened my knowledge a little bit with about two months of BJJ in 2006. Much like I learned to punch from karate, however, as a youth I gained the strength and speed to apply them through weight lifting and eventually learned through my karate training how to apply my punches without using a lot of strength. This is how karate works Zach (oh, I forgot, you don't like when I tell you how karate works, you already know). Techniques and fighting principles from kata are combined with supplemental exercises to gain skill/attributes for application. That is how it has ALWAYS worked since the chuan fa was added.
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Dulaney Dojo

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#392192 - 04/25/08 08:15 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Stop being so bitchy, it's true I don't like being told "how it is" anymore than you do.

I have opinions too, sorry, so far you guys arguments have failed to sway me. Maybe there's a nuance that i'm missing somewhere but it still sounds like a bit of revisionism to me to suit today's MA marketing world. Sorry, but that's what I see.

Everyone who ever trained in more than art knows they blend together, that doesn't make it any more truthful when you claim it was "always" there, or that somehow your wrestling training was a secret key to unlock ancient secrets that had always been there.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/25/08 08:17 PM)

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#392193 - 04/25/08 08:26 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Quote:

Dude, I have no BJJ training, and I didn't even mention BJJ anywhere, where are you getting the BJJ/MMA stuff from?

I have no training in either, just Goju and a small amount of Judo with my Goju teacher, and some Danzan Ryu Jujitsu.

It has nothing to do with modern MMA stuff, just be honest aboutt he origins of things.





Sorry. I dont mean to attack you personally. My apologies.

Thats the thing, I am honest about the origins. Its everyone else who wants it to be BJJ and whatnot. If I analyze a movement, and from that movement comes some groundfighting techniques who the hell is the originator? Me, karate, or the elite groundfighters of BJJ and MMA? It doesnt matter if similarities arise or not, I did the analyzing of a karate move, I did the work to test it out etc.. so why on earth would I want to give credit to someone or something else?

Im not going to conform and call what I do post 1991 Karate, or BJJ... it is what it is. KARATE! And I sure as hell am not giving other people credit for my hard work.

Influences are NOT origins. I can be influenced by Steven Tyler and never learn a single thing from the guy about singing. Likewise I can break your arm from my guard with over a dozen variations. Not one of those I learned from BJJ or Judo... but from analyzing a movement from as many perspectives as possible by me.

On one side you have gifted martial artists increasing the depth of their art and on the other side you got average martial artists crosstraining telling you your just doing jiujitsu. Really doesnt matter what karate was, even though its obvious to some. It is what it is now. What do you tell the people who can grapple that never studied a groundfighting art? To tell them they are crosstraining or they are not truthful about origins is ridiculous.

Anyone in BJJ who reaches a high level of proficiency will realize it is the ingenuity of the player that brings the level to that degree of mastery. Same with karate. Its just too bad some people want to discredit what people create or discover based on someone elses discoveries or their own opinion on how they reached that conclusion.

I study forms, from those forms come applications. I do not go anywhere, train with anyone different or do anything but study the form. But I can fight on the ground... more specifically I can grapple on the ground,. and *gasp* even achieve a dominant position. I did NOT cross train to achieve this skill. What do you call me now? What are my origins now? See my point?

I have and will continue to learn from anyone I can. But I know for a fact that proper analysis of karate & kata movements will lead to an understanding of all aspects of combat independently of other combative arts, including ground grappling. Its not my fault other karateka dont spend the time to do such things and disocver this on their own, and want to crosstrain, these people are no more right or wrong than me either. Just different. But that doesnt make my Karate a crosstrained karate, or post 91 karate.

I just recently tossed out a paper with notes on it from 1995 with my personal applications from Naihanchi at the time. One of those just happens to be called the rubber guard in BJJ... another the OmoPlata... At the time, I only knew who Gracie was, never even gave BJJ a second thought... at the time I did not discern a difference between standing or ground, just fighting and applications. Today, I see more and more people independently achieving the same results. This gives me more confidence that I was on the right path before I knew where I was going.

I think people need to meditate more thats all.

All knowledge is ultimately self knowledge right? In the end either you can or you cant, you do or you dont. No one person is karate, no one art is ground fighting. If someone says(medulanet) they can grapple from kata then why not? Just because someone else cant... it doesnt automatically make his or my applications crosstrained or originating from anywhere than the percieved self. Imagine the world if that rang true for all facets of life.

I am getting carried away now, so im going to leave my thoughts at that. My current training is taking on new dimensions anyway, I find I can agree with all sides of the coin, so I end up arguing with other people just to argue with myself

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