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#392144 - 04/21/08 09:36 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Neko456]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

We still say ain't nothing wrong with cross training and calling it that.






Nope! As he mentioned, either it was there or it wasn't. Can't sit on the fence Neko!!

It was there, then was reborn in 1991,but it has always been there.

Real karate is a well rounded,all inclusive,all you need for self defense, complete art.

If you don't KNOW this then "put up or shut up".

Bunch of half assed wannabe karate guys!!!
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#392145 - 04/22/08 04:44 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Bunch of half assed wannabe karate guys!!!




Breath in, count to 6, breath out.

I can feel Brians intentions moving away from legs of any description (other than chair legs) and he is relaxing.

Let the wonders of the knowledge of man kind be a learning curve. There are those that train (Brian) and there are those that train and think why is it done this way? Why do I have to cross train to the extent that I should? Surely if karate was ever used for real in days gone by? Was it?
Well there might be some proof of its use if the newspaper reports from the turn of the century were correct.

Then they would have covered most things required for effective fighting against an attacker?
But somehow like the weapons use in certain strains of karate training did the method of specific ground training get lost? And if so where is it now practiced ?
Meanwhile some people will rant and take sides and let ego get in the way. And the thoughts of legs.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/22/08 05:07 AM)

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#392146 - 04/22/08 05:01 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Raul Perez]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Glad you liked my naihanchi.

I'd say about 50/50 as far as interpretation. half mine, half what was taught to me.

As far as the bo... no I wasn't aware of it being used with it and I've never trained it as such.




From my studies the bo was and indeed still is used on Okinawa (by certain people) with parts of naihanchi with a lineage traced straight back to one of the main creators of what is now known as karate.

Jude

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#392147 - 04/22/08 09:37 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Raul Perez]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Matt,

Not necessarily. Okinawan Kara-te was renowned for having weight training as part of the training regimine called Tanren. Old systems of Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu still employ them today.

take a look at this link:

http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/012/index.html





I was actually referring to karate in general, but I see your point. I know some Chinese systems also used stone weight training as well. But in the same manner I do not generally consider weight training to be part of kung-fu.

Point taken, though.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#392148 - 04/22/08 11:11 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: jude33]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Ok, you guys got me and rightly so,lol.

Sorry for the leg humping remark jude, it was uncalled for.

I'm glad that marcel crosstrains, it's good for any karateka to crosstrain.

_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#392149 - 04/23/08 11:53 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: BrianS]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Ok, you guys got me and rightly so,lol.

Sorry for the leg humping remark jude, it was uncalled for.








Its ok, doesnt bother me but I am not realy a leg man as such. More of a preference for the upper body. Might change though. I see the breathing exercise and the theraputic lines I posted worked then. Relax and breath.

There is a conversation that should be interesting in PP's on this thread( Karate) so you perhaps might want to consider taking part as well.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/23/08 11:56 AM)

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#392150 - 04/25/08 12:42 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
referring to your first few posts - because I stopped reading after the first page...

first, by 'submission grappling' I don't mean the on the one knee takedown stuff. I mean the rolling on the ground trying to gain positional and leveraged dominance.


The article mentions tegumi as a form of non-organized activity that kids engaged in and occationally had informal village bouts. I have no doubt thats true, and it's corroberated by a few others of the same generation in interviews. I also have no doubt that a type of activity such as untrained-wrestling can be said to strengthen karate training....probably not as much as a formaly-trained wrestling art could, but thats probably all which was available at the time.

What you don't see is tegumi/ground-grappling listed in karate syllabi as part and integral to karate training until after the 1990's. If everyone thought it so important to the definition of Karate, why exclude it from the syllabus when they first formulated theirs? Where are the pictures/mention of karateka training submission grappling on traditional hardwood floors prior to recent times?

my point is, submission grappling training did not make it's way to you thru an unbroken chain of karateka transmission. it was grafted onto your karate thru outside influence, but you and others try to make it look like it's always been there and transmitted as such.

why? because you are awesome and you'll show us how awesome on your DVD for $49.99 someday.


tegumi in particular appears it has not been technically transmitted thru the ages. it appears it was just an informal local activity - more of less the same as all kids in all cultures of all times: non-trained wrasslin. not a technical art integrated and transmitted from karate teacher to karate student with it's hidden secrets deep within kata. thats hyperbole B.S.

what I think happened is this: After stand-up striking-based karate formed and spread, the style founders mention any and all activities they participated in. If they had a year of Judo, Kendo or backyard play-wrestling, they mentioned it since it's pertinant to their influence that shaped their personal art. doesn't mean they taught Judo, Kendo or tegumi as part of their karate. tegumi certainly didn't make it into any formal syllabi I've seen.

it's only from the 1990's grappling craze did we start to see karate graft more wrestling into it's art to the point of there are karateka who had a year or two of BJJ or MMA training, decided it was 'always there', started force-itegrating it into their karate training - and now teach it as if it's the 'old real-deal stuff'. They similarly force the historical connection to boot.
If there had been a sword-fighting craze in the 1990's, maybe we would be having 20 page threads discussing how kendo has always been part of Karate and quoting Funakoshi's "The hands and feet are as swords..." and drawing from the fact he was formally trained in Kendo.

which would be a stronger case than the equvalent of drawing on his childhood memories of playing king-of-the-mountain like games, and using that as the basis for justifying teaching bodyguard and crowd-control techniques.


It's great that karate-ka today know how to manuver to apply an ankle-lock submission with their back on the ground....but just don't tell me they learned it because of the tegumi contained within naihanchi....it's more likely a grafted BJJ influence post-1990, then going back and 'finding' it within kata. Not a bad thing at all, but the technical training needed to pull off the ankle lock while on the ground, wasn't exactly handed down via karate thru the decades, was it.

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#392151 - 04/25/08 01:40 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Interesting Ed, however, it appears that you too have done some grafting. Hopefully your are not referring to me with you BJJ submission reference, because I certainly don't grapple in that manner. However, there is documented accounts of grappling in karate not being a simple child's game. For example Nagamine mentions that Chotoku Kyan's father trained him in "okinawan sumo and karate wrestling" to prepare him for training in classical karate. So maybe there was a prescription for grappling before beginning karate training. In fact, much of the grappling funakoshi describes is what I have been talking about. He talks about working back to your feet when being held down as well as hold down/immobilization techniques from a top position. I'm not sure where you are getting all the bjj references from. There is grappling for fighting other than bjj you know. In fact, I personally know very little bjj. My grappling is more positional wrestling designed to keep/regain my feet and put myself in position to strike when possible. But if I see an opportunity to break or dislocate a few things I will.
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#392152 - 04/25/08 02:46 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Interesting Ed, however, it appears that you too have done some grafting. Hopefully your are not referring to me with you BJJ submission reference, because I certainly don't grapple in that manner. However, there is documented accounts of grappling in karate not being a simple child's game. For example Nagamine mentions that Chotoku Kyan's father trained him in "okinawan sumo and karate wrestling" to prepare him for training in classical karate. So maybe there was a prescription for grappling before beginning karate training. In fact, much of the grappling funakoshi describes is what I have been talking about. He talks about working back to your feet when being held down as well as hold down/immobilization techniques from a top position. I'm not sure where you are getting all the bjj references from. There is grappling for fighting other than bjj you know. In fact, I personally know very little bjj. My grappling is more positional wrestling designed to keep/regain my feet and put myself in position to strike when possible. But if I see an opportunity to break or dislocate a few things I will.




Geez, you're presenting that quote as something much more than it is in it's original context, every story about an Okinawan master includes all the stuff they did early in life, if tegumi was that important to all or most Karateka there would simply be more about it in the historical record, regardless of WWII or anything else.

There is very little descriptive info about tegumi.

Once again I think your training sounds great, and i'm guessing no one would argue with that, but you're really grasping at straws, and honestly you're being pretty loose with your interpretation of the scant information available on tegumi.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/25/08 02:48 AM)

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#392153 - 04/25/08 02:52 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:




If there had been a sword-fighting craze in the 1990's, maybe we would be having 20 page threads discussing how kendo has always been part of Karate and quoting Funakoshi's "The hands and feet are as swords..." and drawing from the fact he was formally trained in Kendo.





I dont think it would have been kendo. But defence against swords and using some sword techniques sometimes with other weapons might have been included along with ti.
I am afraid any further questions on this might get stonewalled at this moment in time. It is still in the research stages. I think the question might be is what exactly is karate?

It it what is practiced by people in this day and age ? Or was it the different arts that were practiced in days gone by? The result of/ history of/ might or might not be held in karate kata?



Quote:



It's great that karate-ka today know how to manuver to apply an ankle-lock submission with their back on the ground....but just don't tell me they learned it because of the tegumi contained within naihanchi....it's more likely a grafted BJJ influence post-1990, then going back and 'finding' it within kata. Not a bad thing at all, but the technical training needed to pull off the ankle lock while on the ground, wasn't exactly handed down via karate thru the decades, was it.




From beyond a certain time period I dont think so.
But who is to say what was practiced in days gone by?
At the moment sheer speculation, but that might change.


Jude

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