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#392104 - 04/21/08 03:31 AM Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
I couldn't think of a great title, so this is the one I used. However, I know how many discussions we have had on the subject, however, I just came across something. I remember Unyu said Funakoshi talked about Tegumi, so I dug up his book My Way of Life and found his referrences to it. It is very interesting. And it also is interesting to see that what he describes is very similar to the submission wrestling art I believe tegumi to have been. Here is a link. On page 63 beginning with the section Recollection of Childhood. Check it out and let me know what you think. Oh, and yes this post is obviously about my out of control ego and bravado.

http://www.afkka.com/docs/my_way_of_life.pdf
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#392105 - 04/21/08 03:44 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Erm...I gonna venture a guess that alot of us on here have already read this, sorry to be rude but this book is not exactly an obscure one.

It's mildly interesting reading but I hope you aren't thinking this somehow "proves" any of the groundfighting stuff we've talked about, it doesn't even come close.


Basically you've reminded us that funakoshi makes some mention of tegumi in his (famous, well read) book, what were you hoping to acheive with this?

P.S. Do you always have a huge chip on your shoulder when you post, or is that just my impression of your writing?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/21/08 04:07 AM)

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#392106 - 04/21/08 04:45 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Did you read the pages he wrote on the subject? I know people have accused me of not providing references in the past and I believe Ed said that only Nagamine made any reference to Tegumi prior to the UFC. This is simply a reference that I find interesting and it further shows how integral grappling traditions were to okinawan karate as well as their relation to submission style grappling practices of today. I also remeber that people questioned Jokei Kushi's research in Nagamine's second book and this passage confirms many of the things his research affirmed.

As far as having a "chip" it seems recently I am accused of having alterior motives to my posts. I simply wanted to get that out of the way rather than waiting for someone to accuse me of it because I believe strongly in my convictions.
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Dulaney Dojo

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#392107 - 04/21/08 06:43 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
haze Offline
Dragon

Registered: 06/11/06
Posts: 106
Loc: Syracuse NY USA
"another local Okinawan sport, not only because it provided me with many hours of fun when I was young"

Anther, meaning separate,

When I was young, past tense probably not doing it any more, replaced it with karate.

I would think that if it was played/practiced as a youth and was part of his karate training he would have said that the wrestling he did as a youth helped greatly in the ground techniques that are found in his karate.


Edited by haze (04/21/08 06:44 AM)
_________________________
David

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#392108 - 04/21/08 08:24 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: haze]
ThunderboltLotus Offline
Newbie

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 16
Loc: Cornwall, Great Britain
http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...e=1&fpart=9

You obviously didn t read this quote then Med.
Funnily after i posted this i found out one of the 'experts' with a Tegumi tape out has supposedly produced his latest podcast on Funakoshi and his link to Tegumi! If only these guys would admit what their doing (however good others think it/they are) and stop trying to link their stuff to a past master or word then the easily manipulated would learn to stand on their own two feet or in this case pull themselves up by their boot straps and be discriminate in their choice of influences.

i feel an article in the making!
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Michael Powell

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#392109 - 04/21/08 09:13 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
thanks for posting a link to that book med! *prints and binds at school*
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its not supposed to make sense

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#392110 - 04/21/08 10:17 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: haze]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Quote:

"another local Okinawan sport, not only because it provided me with many hours of fun when I was young"

Anther, meaning separate,

When I was young, past tense probably not doing it any more, replaced it with karate.

I would think that if it was played/practiced as a youth and was part of his karate training he would have said that the wrestling he did as a youth helped greatly in the ground techniques that are found in his karate.




Actually, Funakoshi gives a very vivid detailed explanation of what Tegumi is. What you stated is only the first paragraph of his description. He even gives two specific techniques. And he does say certain bouts being with you laying down. Do you lay down standing up?

|
|
The Okinawan name for our style of wrestling is tegumi, and should you write the word, you would use
the same two Chinese characters that are used to write karate’s kumite, except that they are reversed.
Tegumi is, of course, a far simpler and more primitive sport than karate. In fact, there are few rules except
for certain prohibitions: the use of fists, for example, to strike an opponent, or the use of the feet and the
legs to kick him. Nor are opponents permitted to grab each other’s hair or pinch one another. Prohibited
also are the sword hand and the elbow blow used in karate.

Unlike most forms of wrestling, in which the participants are lightly clad, entrants in tegumi bouts remain
fully clothed. Further, there is no special ring; the bout may be held anywhere—inside the house or in
some nearby field. I should note that when I was young the outdoors was generally the scene for tegumi
bouts because they tend to get rather lively and our parents did not like to see sliding paper doors and
tatami mats damaged. Of course, when we held a bout in a field, we first had to remove all the rocks and
stones that are a prevailing feature of the Okinawan rural scene.

The bout begins, as sumo does, with the two opponents pushing against each other. Then, as it proceeds,
grappling and throwing techniques are used. One that I recall well was very similar to the ebigatama (leg
block and three-quarter Nelson) of today’s professional wrestling. When I watch wrestling on television
nowadays, I am often reminder of the tegumi of my Okinawan youth.

The referees were usually boys who acted also as seconds to the opponents, their principal role being to
ensure that neither participant was seriously injured or knocked unconscious. To stop the fight, all that
any boy who felt he had had enough needed to do was to pat his opponent’s body. Some boys, however,
were so dauntless that they would go on fighting until they were knocked out. In such cases, it would be
the duty of the referee to try to stop the bout before that happened.
|
|
Like every other Okinawan boy, I spent many happy hours engaging in or watching tegumi bouts, but it
was after I had taken up karate seriously that I came to realize that tegumi offers a unique opportunity for
training, in that it need not be limited to two participants. One (usually, of course, an older and stronger
boy) may take on two or three opponents or as many as he feels up to.

Such bouts begin with the lone wrestler lying down flat on his back, his opponents pinning down his arms
and legs. Once I had determined to become a karateka, I used to get four or five younger boys to wrestle
with me, believing that such bouts would strengthen my arm and leg muscles as well as those of the
stomach and the hips. I cannot now say how much tegumi actually contributed to my mastery of karate,
but I am certain that it helped fortify my will.

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#392111 - 04/21/08 10:29 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: student_of_life]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Med - I agree with the others it does not prove that ground fighting is intergal part of Karate he mentined that even the Okinawans couldn't prove this but felt that maybe once it was. If wrestling was older then Karate wouldn't its presence be there since it was already being practiced as Karate was being devised. Really showing they were seperate and not a part of Karate training.

Its already been established that Okinawans has a submission wrestling sport or Childhood past time and he mentioned they were serious about it. He only contributed his past wrestling experience to enhancing his fitness and know how when dealing with multiples opponents.

So in essence his experience with wrestling is the same as mines it enhanced my fitness and strengthen my body adding to my ground game. But it was not a part of my Karate training though certain techniques you see comparison as in the fireman carry or kata gauruma which is a throw for example.

Good find but it only prove our point. There is no detailed Ground fighting/Osaekomiwaza in Karate's Kata.


Edited by Neko456 (04/21/08 10:36 AM)

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#392112 - 04/21/08 11:22 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Neko456]
JAMJTX Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
Just beracause he did not mention tegumi being an integral part of the ground fighting in Karate, does not prove that there is no ground fighting in Karate.

There is in fact ground fighting in atleast some styles of Karate. If you do not have a teacher than can show you the applications you need to either closely examine the movements of your kata and get creative or just find a better teacher.

I have had 2 Goju Ryu teachers that showed me ground fighting applications. I had this discussion with another teacher who asked me if I know the ground applications from Naihanchi. One is an escape from the "mount"

Despite popular opinion, the Gracie family did not invent ground fighting. It's been around for a long long time.

Tegumi most certainly had a strong influence on the development of Karate and Karate includes ground fighting and stand-up grappling. Funakoshi may not have taught it in his "school boy" version of Karate, but that does not mean that it never existed.

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#392113 - 04/21/08 11:27 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: JAMJTX]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
It doesn't prove that it did either is my point. Hell I teach ground fighting in my Goju-Ryu Karate class so what does it prove. I acknowledge added it from my wrestling, Judo, Jujitsu background not from my Karate Kata system.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have your opinion. You are in good company I admire and respect Shorin's Master Pat McCarthy he says the samething but I don't agree with him.


Edited by Neko456 (04/21/08 11:29 AM)
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