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#392124 - 04/21/08 02:46 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Supremor]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Interesting debate, FWIW a school in my local area in Poland(it is a Fudokan Shotokan school) does what it calls "tegumi" practice. From what I have seen and practiced of it while in the class, it seems to be simple groundwork a la BJJ or Judo newaza. Trouble is, they're not very good at it, and coming from a dedicated groundfighting art(judo), I am quite shocked at how easy it is for me to control them positionally and in submissions, even with significant weight disadvantages.

Maybe I am unusual, but I never liked the idea of a "complete" art anyway. Jack of all trades and master of none as they say!




I am not sure of your point other than crappy grapplers are simply crappy grapplers. Its about understanding solid principles of grappling and training them with resistence. Its one thing to have someone come in, show some stuff, and leave with you left to figure it out. However, if you understand what you are doing there is not so much figuring out, just training. And if you don't know what you are doing then stop doing it or find someone that does.
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Dulaney Dojo

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#392125 - 04/21/08 02:49 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


Maybe I am unusual, but I never liked the idea of a "complete" art anyway. Jack of all trades and master of none as they say!




I agree 100%, only so much time to train, good to prioritize what's what.




That's where you are misunderstanding. A jack of all trades does all things equally. A master has developed one aspect to a high level, however, can perform the other areas passably to place himself in a position where he can play to his strengths, not be defeated by his weakness. That is karate's strength putting yourself in a position to use your strengths to your advantage.




Please don't lecture me, it's incredibly condescending, i have a very good teacher and I don't particularly need your advice on what i'm "misunderstanding" due to not agreeing with you and your ever-changing argument.

Let me ask you a question, since you seem to think your training is somehow qualitatively superior to those who are forced to "crosstrain" in a grappling art (you make some weird distinction betwen what you do and crosstraining if I remember)..how exactly is what you do functionally different from a Karateka with some Judo or BJJ etc?

Freakin' werid semantic argument you have, can you boil your contention down to a single sentence so we can stop going around in circles?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/21/08 03:11 PM)

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#392126 - 04/21/08 03:11 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Med -

Quote:

I don't actively promote myself as cross training in this instance because I don't in the other aspects of karate such as meditation, strength training, etc. So basically the only reason to do so would be to please you guys, right?




Or just to be honest.

We have been over this before. Your definition of "supplementary" training is laughably broad, and could include damn near anything. Weight training for one is generally *NOT* considered part of karate training, although many do it. Tegumi is a similar concept - not karate, although many did it. I suppose baseball or basketball should be considered "supplementary" to karate in the same sense, by your definition.

Quote:

Well, its not so much about tegumi but practicing a grappling art to gain certain basic skills. I personally did so for 4 years straigt at the beginning of my karate training as well as on and off since then beginning in 1990.




That's great. Crosstraining is a good idea. But there is little effective difference between tegumi being part of karate and me crosstraining BJJ with my AKK. The only reason to make spurious claims of originality/purity is to put down other styles and students. Now THAT you do well.

Quote:

Correct. I get the impression you don't remember me stating that grappling training is a necessary supplementary exercise to develop effective karate.




Case in point. Your "supplementary" keeps trying to become "original part of". Not the same thing. I do agree with your underlying point about needing grappling training, though.

Quote:

Funakoshi didn't call it cross training either. The okinawans in fact didn't use a lot of terms in teaching and training. I like that better.




I'm sure you do. Makes it easier to put other people down.

Quote:

Exactly what MMA marketing mold am I trying to fit into?




The "original art had it all" one, when it seems pretty clear that it didn't.
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"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#392127 - 04/21/08 03:42 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

That's great. Crosstraining is a good idea. But there is little effective difference between tegumi being part of karate and me crosstraining BJJ with my AKK. The only reason to make spurious claims of originality/purity is to put down other styles and students. Now THAT you do well.




I am not putting any other styles down Matt. And yes, you are right. What you are doing is similar to what the okinawans do. However, the only difference would be if you are using your bjj to get back to your feet rather than pulling guard. Or maybe work to throw strikes and stand up from a position rather than simply wanting to work submissions. Its not always what you are doing but what are you doing with it. The whole guard is a neutral position I hear from bjj guys is a load of crap and if that is a part of your fighting paradigm then what you are doing is does not fall in line with what the okinawans did.

Quote:

Case in point. Your "supplementary" keeps trying to become "original part of". Not the same thing. I do agree with your underlying point about needing grappling training, though.




So that would mean that hojo undo is not a part of karate as well. If that is your belief then you are correct in your arguement.

Quote:

I'm sure you do. Makes it easier to put other people down.




So who did I put down when I was not responding to someone who attacked me first?

Quote:

Quote:

Exactly what MMA marketing mold am I trying to fit into?




The "original art had it all" one, when it seems pretty clear that it didn't.




So just because I believe karate is complete I am using MMA marketing?
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Dulaney Dojo

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#392128 - 04/21/08 03:47 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: MattJ]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Quote:

Your definition of "supplementary" training is laughably broad, and could include damn near anything. Weight training for one is generally *NOT* considered part of karate training, although many do it.




Matt,

Not necessarily. Okinawan Kara-te was renowned for having weight training as part of the training regimine called Tanren. Old systems of Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu still employ them today.

take a look at this link:

http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/012/index.html

other than that I have nothing to add.

Peace,

Raul
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"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#392129 - 04/21/08 03:51 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Please don't lecture me, it's incredibly condescending, i have a very good teacher and I don't particularly need your advice on what i'm "misunderstanding" due to not agreeing with you and your ever-changing argument.




Listen, check the title. Put up or shut up. You keep saying I am changing my argument but put up no proof. And I am sorry if questioning what you say is a lecture. I guess I am not the only one who is never wrong around here.

Quote:

Let me ask you a question, since you seem to think your training is somehow qualitatively superior to those who are forced to "crosstrain" in a grappling art (you make some weird distinction betwen what you do and crosstraining if I remember)..how exactly is what you do functionally different from a Karateka with some Judo or BJJ etc?




I am not saying what I am doing is better. I am saying it is what I do. However, I don't agree with many of the fighting philosophies of BJJ such as guard is a neutral position as well as learning to grapple with a gi.

Quote:

Freakin' werid semantic argument you have, can you boil your contention down to a single sentence so we can stop going around in circles?





I did. Here it is again. Grappling training is a supplementary excercise of karate used to develop wrestling skill to apply techniques from kata such as joint manipulations, takedowns, and chokes of karate.
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Dulaney Dojo

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#392130 - 04/21/08 04:05 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:


Listen, check the title. Put up or shut up. You keep saying I am changing my argument but put up no proof. And I am sorry if questioning what you say is a lecture. I guess I am not the only one who is never wrong around here.





You put up or shut up, so far you've "put up" nothing but a link to a book we've probably all read like it's some kind of big revelation, then presented your own opinion and training as a reflection of the overall reality.


Quote:

I am not saying what I am doing is better. I am saying it is what I do. However, I don't agree with many of the fighting philosophies of BJJ such as guard is a neutral position as well as learning to grapple with a gi.





Well I suppose I agree with you on some of that, but i'm certainly not the only one getting the impression that alot of your posts are nothing more than an attempt to put your training above that of others, and to market is as somehow more complete and original.

Quote:


I did. Here it is again. Grappling training is a supplementary excercise of karate used to develop wrestling skill to apply techniques from kata such as joint manipulations, takedowns, and chokes of karate.




Right, so now the argument has become something much more reasonable than what you were posting before on this very same subject. No i'm not gonna go dredge up old posts, everyone following the thread has probably seen them.

Anyway, I don't want to keep fighting with you so i'll leave the thread for a bit, you really are unneccessarily combative about this stuff.

Why do you consistently feel the need to argue with us about groundfighting? How many posts have you made on this subject? We don't need you to educate us on what you think we are doing wrong.

Why are you so interested in arguing with us over something on which there is so little historical data?


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/21/08 04:09 PM)

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#392131 - 04/21/08 04:24 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Zach_Zinn]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Right, so now the argument has become something much more reasonable than what you were posting before on this very same subject. No i'm not gonna go dredge up old posts, everyone following the thread has probably seen them.




That is the most ridiculous way to prove someone wrong I have ever seen in my life. You refuse to provide proof I have changed my arguement and therefore rely on the fact that everyone who disagrees with me believes the same things that you do.

Quote:

Anyway, I don't want to keep fighting with you so i'll leave the thread for a bit, you really are unneccessarily combative about this stuff.




Yeah, I guess I post things in opposition to what the general forum population believes with the sole purpose of forcing them to disagree with me. Oh, wait a minute, no I don't. I simply post my opinion and some people don't like it.

Quote:

Why do you consistently feel the need to argue with us about groundfighting? How many posts have you made on this subject? We don't need you to educate us on what you think we are doing wrong.




Entertainment maybe. They are obviously quite popular threads, right? People ask me for more references and proof and then people get mad at me for posting it. Strange world.

Quote:

Why are you so interested in arguing with us over something on which there is so little historical data?




You mean as opposed to the other parts of karate which has so much historical data. Hey, wait a minute. 1/3 of Okinawans and most of their records were destroyed in WWII. Not to mention that everyone seems to do things so differently. Basically any and all aspects of karate can end up like this due to a lack of historical data. So wait, now I'm confused. What are you talking about?
_________________________
Dulaney Dojo

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#392132 - 04/21/08 05:48 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Supremor Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/22/04
Posts: 2510
Loc: UK
Hey Medulanet,

You know I can't quite understand what all the animosity is about from many of the members here. You have your theories about how Okinawan karate was a complete martial art, others disagree, that's the nature of debate. I myself don't agree with you, but I'm sure your training is good. I mean, it really doesn't matter where you get your training philosophies from, it could be the biker mice from Mars for all I care, it matters how good the training is.

So here's a piece of advice for everybody in the debate: If you want to disagree with Med then that's fine; but really, to imply that because one issue particularly interests him it implies some sort of marketing strategy or duplicitessness(sp?) on his part is completely unneccessary. I know I'd get really bored on this forum if no one was willing to occasionally post something with real passion for their subject.

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#392133 - 04/21/08 06:04 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


Let me ask you a question, since you seem to think your training is somehow qualitatively superior to those who are forced to "crosstrain" in a grappling art





Hey Zach how about taking a break with the constant digs?
Where has he stated his training is superior? I have read back to nearly all the threads and guess what Zach?
Most of his input along with others has been realy informative. Educational. Not my art is superior.
His style does have a lot of research value.





Weight training has been around for years in karate.

Quote:




Freakin' werid semantic argument you have, can you boil your contention down to a single sentence so we can stop going around in circles?





I think a thread as this is how karate was trained years ago and/or what does a karate ka need to do to be effective in fighting/ self defence/ health or does a person just train karate for gradings and their ego? Or just for fun?
might clear the air a bit.
And who on this karate thread trains like this would be a good idea.

That would create some imaginative postings.

Jude

It is not advised for people to train with a Sagi Makiwari unless they have trained with weights first. Hey Zach do you know what one is?


Edited by jude33 (04/21/08 06:26 PM)

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