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#392234 - 04/27/08 11:43 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

I think most agree takedowns and knee-ride submission techniques are and have been part of Karate. but I don't think that qualifies as wrestling on the ground, by popular definition.




So for some reason, when people who your are "discussing" groundfighting in karate/kata inform you that they do include such knee ride submissions in their definition of groundfighting, you still believe they are following your "popular definition."
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#392235 - 04/27/08 11:45 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Quote:

Our approach is not that of wrestling an opponent on the ground.




same here. nor have I seen any evidence of any Karate style (prior to the 1990's that is) with the training method required to gain such skills.

of course, it doesn't mean it can't be done - but I believe it changes the intent of what Karate addresses...perhaps thats why your prior student with a ground wrestling background didn't feel the need to incorporate wrestling on the ground.




And since we are speculating, maybe it was because karate had an equally effective method of addressing grappling as it relates to combat/fighting.
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#392236 - 04/28/08 12:36 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
yup...could be. It could be that Karate's intent changes with the times and on an individual basis.

I'm just saying there is no evidence of what you claim (if you are even claiming submission wrestling has been passed down thru an unbroken line of transmission).

post WWII karateka in particular have been eager to document their art. show me any (or even pre-WWII for that matter) Karate publication which point out submission wrestling technique with 2 people wrestling on the ground (as defined in the link I gave) as an integral and technical part of their karate and you've made your point.

childhood memories of playfighting doesn't qualify, a kata that drops on it's knee doesn't qualify. someone stating that a wrestling background prior to karate training helps build the foundation to karate training isn't the same as claiming karate includes it.

I could also say that taking boxing prior to karate training helps a person understand karate....but if someone gains their boxing habits from boxing training, you can't really claim the skill was built from karate. some of the foundations overlap, but the intent and strategy is different.

same with submission wrestling. it's not the intent for karate to be there. you can certainly add the range to your personal art. but those lessons weren't transmitted and learned thru karate training...they were learned from someone cross-trained in submission wrestling.


did your sensei (was it Eihachi Ota ?) teach submission wrestling? did his teacher? (Shima Sensei). did Nagamine teach submission wrestling?

I thought their main intent was to teach to defend from initial attack while standing? again, takedowns and drop to one knee finish/submission yes...but 2-person submission wrestling on a hard-wood traditional dojo floor? - where have you seen/heard or even read about that prior to the 1990's in a Karate context?

Could you let me know which of your Karate teachers passed ground-based submission wrestling techniques down to you in the form of having you practice 2-person submission wrestling with him looking on and correcting your technique while both opponents are on the ground struggling for positional dominance or submission?

That might clear things up.

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#392237 - 04/28/08 11:51 AM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Zach_Zinn]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9pu5uv1Z6o





All of these are my thoughts and the results of my studies.
I actualy like this kind of stuff you posted. I Observe a lot of it. I go through the motions carefully with a willing partner with a couple of techniques.

But they cant be practiced other than using something like a throw dummy.

It is one of the reasons kano created Judo.

He made throwns and techniques as safe as could be made to allow randori.
Quote:


It's almost as if you guys are trying to say that before the modern era martial arts were all-inclusive super-arts where the practitioners were great at all aspects.




Karate, the term is new. What went in to the creation of the term had the nuts and bolts to be an effective all round art. But at that time it wasnt called karate. It was more how certain people in certain areas at certain times on Okinawa trained.

The art you practice daito ryu. I think it had an infleunce along with a lot of arts on karate. My studies of history seem to back this up. In fact they are nigh on positive.

I think that some techniques that were practiced in daito ryu and more that likely other arts that eventualy became known as Japanese Jujitsu found there way in to karate and were recorded in karate kata. Also that the emphasis on throws and grappling and not so much striking in Daito ryu might be because of the prescence of armour, but people arent always going to wearing armour if and when attacked.
So then more than likely striking then takes prescedence.

One of the techniques I know of in daito ryu is also practiced in a strain of Tiger kung fu.
With a slightly different emphasis.

Go back even further and this I think is where Medulanet feels something in common with his karate and his wrestling background. It was thought that before kata was used with ti there was some form of grappling with striking and more than likely weapons use.

There had to be either a certain art that was spread over Asia or even that humans having only certain ways of moving created the same techniques for a specific use. I personly think it was the first one.
Quote:


That's called romanticizing the past. In this case though, you seem to be romanticizing the past using the yardstick of modern MMA training...confusing to say the least what exactly you guys are driving at.




What I might be driving at is that karate was an ongoing development on Okinawa. Different strains of karate were influenced by different events and different people.
It was a fighting art. It was or could be used for weapon less self defence or with weapons if required.
A lot of karate history is thought to be wrong.

From the use of karate in education forward I think a lot of techniques were removed.

MMA doesnt always use all of the specific techniques that were used for real during conflict of one nature or another, so in a way it is something like the art Kano created. Use techniques that are relatively safe.

If karate was an effective art then they would have covered every event. Including if the encounter went to the ground.

At one time the people who controlled the Okinawans and gave them addional ( added to their) skills were battle hardened samuria.

The Satsuma clan and indeed other clans that occupied Okinawa were known to have trained the locals.

So the Satsuma samuria would have known groundfighting techniques both armed and unarmed.Okinawan samuria would have also have recieved additional training from the Japanese samuria.

Also the additional training of the Okinawan peasents

The training was would have been for;

Defence against pirates and bandits, robbers etc who more than likely didint wear armour as such, so first line of defence would be weapons along with perhaps more emphasis on striking, even more so should they be caught with out or even if they should lose their weapons.The striking and some other techniques the okinwans would have known by that time from their native ti and the chinese infleunce.

When called on for military defence so weapons along with armed and unarmed grappling with less emphasis on striking but that would be depending on the opponents.


Just because something isnt emphasised doesnt mean to say it cant be trained. The strikes in any art can be trained to a higher degree. If some one in days gone by who used daito ryu was caught minus a weapon I am sure they would have used and been able to use striking effectively along with the other skills they had.

Jude

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#392238 - 04/28/08 12:35 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

I thought you would know, all BJJ is not the same. There is BJJ for vale tudo, sport grappling, and self defense. The techniques are the same, but the strategies and different. Being you have taken the art for over 2 years wouldn't you knwo this?




Thanks for making assumptions about what I know.

Quote:

Their SD stuff is good. Their vale tudo stuff is okay. Their sport stuff ingrains bad strategies.




What makes you assume that all BJJ schools teach only sport stuff?

Quote:

Correct, sport wrestling does teach these things. Wrestling for fighting does not. But then, if you had ANY experience with it, you would know this.




Again with the assumptions. So I guess I can assume that your wrestling is "bad strategy" sporting stuff, since you learned it in school, right? So how would YOU know anything about "wrestling for fighting"? If you can't use sport BJJ for self defense, you can't use sport wrestling for self defense........right?

Quote:

Well, some arts are better for certain people and what they bring to the table. I always say that BJJ and its strategies are not for me. Wrestling as it relates to fighting is much more my fit. Especially because I don't have to learn a lot of knew stuff, just new ways to use the stuff I know.




Finally something that I can agree with you about.
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#392239 - 04/28/08 12:54 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: Ed_Morris]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Again an outstanding analyzation that I agree with. Even in your challange debate with Hanshi McCarthy though I respect his opinion greatly he did not nail down the orgin of his new finding except with the occassional argument that Medulant states there are writing that talk about submisson wrestling existing before and during the development of Karate. I saw no tie or kindship to Karate and Tegumi in Kata accept they once existed and was practiced during thr same time but in different enviroments or times in there lives.

No more then Boxing has a link to Wrestling though some say they were linked at one time. And if orgin of Karate or Boxing can be traced to Pankartion maybe thats true.

Some see this as plain as nose on our face but if it doesn't say it plaining or stated it as fact how can it be that plain. Either it existed or it didn't I've seen many pictures of the Unicorn and Spinix but no proof that they existed. Except rumor and the Spinix doesn't have a nose on its Pyramid (trying to funny). These are considered Myths.

But to train both now would be cross training.

I agree with the Engineer and other, "No wrestling in formal katas exponents".

Thats all we are saying call a Ace an Ace.


Edited by Neko456 (04/28/08 01:05 PM)
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#392240 - 04/28/08 06:26 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: MattJ]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

Again with the assumptions. So I guess I can assume that your wrestling is "bad strategy" sporting stuff, since you learned it in school, right? So how would YOU know anything about "wrestling for fighting"? If you can't use sport BJJ for self defense, you can't use sport wrestling for self defense........right?




Definitely Matt. I am not a very good grappler at all and I can't use my wrestling skill in my fighting.
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#392241 - 04/28/08 06:45 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Think this is de-generating in to nothing.

Is there ground fighting in karate?
I think Yes. Others say no.

Can it be proven with conventional kata of which some were said to have been changed?
In a way it can be speculated but it cant be seen 100 percent as such.

Are people rolling about on the floor in conventional kata?
No

Are people rolling about on the floor in the weapon forms that are said at one time nearly all karate ka practiced?
No

Are karate ka/ weapons people rolling about on the floor in a none weaponed kata?

Yes.

Might there be the proof?

Who knows.

Jude

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#392242 - 04/28/08 07:07 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Definitely Matt. I am not a very good grappler at all and I can't use my wrestling skill in my fighting.




No sir, you don't get to deflect this one that easy. Please explain how you got "wrestling for fighting" from a sport-based academic wrestling foundation, and why someone else would NOT be able to do the same from a sport-based BJJ groundfighting foundation.

I don't see where your way leads to something intrinsically better for "fighting". You DID recommend people wrestle in high school. That is a sport, correct?
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#392243 - 04/28/08 07:11 PM Re: Tegumi, Funakoshi, FA.com, and medulanet [Re: medulanet]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6768
in case you missed it:
Quote:


did your sensei (was it Eihachi Ota ?) teach submission wrestling? did his teacher? (Shima Sensei). did Nagamine teach submission wrestling?

I thought their main intent was to teach to defend from initial attack while standing? again, takedowns and drop to one knee finish/submission yes...but 2-person submission wrestling on a hard-wood traditional dojo floor? - where have you seen/heard or even read about that prior to the 1990's in a Karate context?

Could you let me know which of your Karate teachers passed ground-based submission wrestling techniques down to you in the form of having you practice 2-person submission wrestling with him looking on and correcting your technique while both opponents are on the ground struggling for positional dominance or submission?

That might clear things up.




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