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#391933 - 04/19/08 11:16 PM Bassai!
Salek Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 474
Loc: Minnesota
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMt0RuESFU4

That wonderful little unedited video is of me doing one kata called Bassai Dai.

I also did this in the other video I showed you guys. I think I have improved a little since then.

What do you guys think?
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#391934 - 04/20/08 05:03 AM Re: Bassai! [Re: Salek]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
nice kata, always like to see members training clips.
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#391935 - 04/20/08 05:07 AM Re: Bassai! [Re: shoshinkan]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Good performance, well done!
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#391936 - 04/20/08 05:55 AM Re: Bassai! [Re: Salek]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi,

I really like your performance.

The really great thing about that clip is that if you can keep up the training pace, film yourself in 5 years and then 10 years and observe what continued training times does to your kata.

That is one of the things that can keep your long term study very interesting. I think you will find you relax better in time and when you do so your center will drop beause your body is working better and in turn your power will increase.

But the video record will help you find out if that's right yourself..... This really can only be observed when looking at considerable time between the performances.

keep training!
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#391937 - 04/20/08 08:47 AM Re: Bassai! [Re: Victor Smith]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Very nice. We do the same kata with a couple of trivial differences. I'd be pleased if my rendition looked as good.
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#391938 - 04/20/08 12:23 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: Salek]
JAMJTX Offline
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Registered: 12/01/02
Posts: 585
Loc: Fort Wayne, IN
It was quite nice. Thank you for sharing.
I did not see the original video so can not comment on how well you improved.
What I do like is the fact that you recognized where you needed improvement and then made it.
I hope you will continue to work on this and other kata. None of us are perfect so I'm sure you'll look at it and maybe see some other things you want to work on.

I have some old video of Shogo Kuniba doing this kata during his first visit to the U.S. This, along with his unique bunkai, was always a specialty of his. So I have a special connection to this kata and enjoy seeing it done well, even where there are variations.

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#391939 - 04/20/08 01:23 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: JAMJTX]
ShorinjiSeisan Offline
Member

Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 51
Nicely done kata. Bassai is powerful

What computer operating system do you have? If you have WindowsXP or Vista, you can easily trim the before action and post action stuff with Microsoft Movie Maker. It's a free download with XP, and it comes standard with Vista.

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#391940 - 04/20/08 03:23 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: ShorinjiSeisan]
Salek Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 474
Loc: Minnesota
Thanks for all the comments. It will be interesting to see what my karate is like in 5 or so years.

Bassai is a good kata... I think I can get Bassai Sho up there now with Windows Movie Maker... Which thanks to ShorinjiSeisan I just discovered I had...

Couple things I noticed I had to do to improve.

- I need to keep my back foot down on the knife hands coming forward.

- I need to be faster and stronger!

- on the punches toward the camera I need to have the target lower stomach.

- get lower stances over all.
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#391941 - 04/20/08 03:44 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: Salek]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
S,
Good job buddy.
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#391942 - 04/20/08 06:53 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: oldman]
JoshuaMonjin Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 427
Loc: Fallon, Nevada
Nice job, I also appreciated the fact that you didn't add music to the clip that gets real annoying when you are trying to look at martial arts videos. What camera are you using?
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#391943 - 05/08/08 08:57 AM Re: Bassai! [Re: JoshuaMonjin]
Dobbersky Offline
Peace Works!!!!
Enthusiast

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 913
Loc: Manchester United Kingdom
I like this kata too, I've not reached the level to learn it yet but I do appreciate its complexity

Has anyone read "The Meanings of Forms and Katas Adult Level" The reason why I ask is that the author who I have corresponded with (And indeed gains my utmost respect- it is a excellent 'book' and really does give an added incite into the kata, much in the way that Iain Abernathy does) advises that there are 14 'neck break' techniques in the Kata Bassai. As I have not practiced the Kata would anyone be able to advise if they have recognised at least a few of these, stating where in the kata is not necessary as there will be children reading these.

Osu
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A man is but the product of his thoughts what he thinks, he becomes.

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#391944 - 05/08/08 10:08 AM Re: Bassai! [Re: Dobbersky]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
D,
One clue in bassai and in other forms is when you see hands moving in different directions. When you see one hand stationary and the other move past or away from it quickly you have the possibility of creating the tight rotation of an object. You have to look at the form as if , when the hands are "fisted" that there is something in the hands rather than just blocking or striking. Just an idea. Think about having an opponant in front of you on his knees facing away from you. If you were nice you could take his back, get you hooks in, slip in a rear naked and put him to sleep. That would be a great option. One the other hand, think about your left hand, thumb facing down, on the back of his head with a handful of hair and your right hand on their chin palm up with a hand full of beard. Then imagine you pull his chin like you are trying to start a 15 years old mower that doesn't have any gas in it.

Keep in mind 14 neck breaks sounds pretty dramatic and like "overkill". If the guy called them 14 "neck cranks" people might not look at the comment as just hyperbole. If you control the head you control the body.

Two weeks ago I was teaching a class with some chokes and neck cranks covered in it. As usual we try to be careful. I also let people apply things on me so I know the are getting it correct. Even though we use restraint I still got jacked up a bit and am having trouble turning my head to the right.

I would absolutely hate to have someone really crank something like that with any malice. Maybe it would be better to use the phrase "excessive force' rather than neck breaks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IGC--9E7H8
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#391945 - 05/08/08 01:06 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: oldman]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

D,
One clue in bassai and in other forms is when you see hands moving in different directions. When you see one hand stationary and the other move past or away from it quickly you have the possibility of creating the tight rotation of an object. You have to look at the form as if , when the hands are "fisted" that there is something in the hands rather than just blocking or striking. Just an idea. Think about having an opponant in front of you on his knees facing away from you. If you were nice you could take his back, get you hooks in, slip in a rear naked and put him to sleep. That would be a great option. One the other hand, think about your left hand, thumb facing down, on the back of his head with a handful of hair and your right hand on their chin palm up with a hand full of beard. Then imagine you pull his chin like you are trying to start a 15 years old mower that doesn't have any gas in it.

Keep in mind 14 neck breaks sounds pretty dramatic and like "overkill". If the guy called them 14 "neck cranks" people might not look at the comment as just hyperbole. If you control the head you control the body.

Two weeks ago I was teaching a class with some chokes and neck cranks covered in it. As usual we try to be careful. I also let people apply things on me so I know the are getting it correct. Even though we use restraint I still got jacked up a bit and am having trouble turning my head to the right.

I would absolutely hate to have someone really crank something like that with any malice. Maybe it would be better to use the phrase "excessive force' rather than neck breaks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IGC--9E7H8




Not bad oldman, however, I would suggest that grabbing and controlling a guy on the ground may not be so simple, unless they are already semi-conscious. If a step preceeds the neck crank I would suggest a kick or knee to the face before the neck crank is indicated. But I personally like neck cranks from the standing position and hammer fists, elbows, kicks, and knee strikes to downed opponents.
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#391946 - 05/08/08 01:23 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: medulanet]
LeeF Offline
Newbie

Registered: 02/20/08
Posts: 19
Loc: Rogers, AR
It's always interesting to watch non-Kenkojuku Bassai-Dai, or any other kata for that matter.

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#391947 - 05/08/08 01:50 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: Salek]
ttruscott Offline
Annoying ex-Member who tries to advertise on every post

Registered: 03/11/08
Posts: 31
Loc: BC Canada
A good strong kata - I like the tradition of snap and focus you are obviously being taught.

If you would allow a nit picking old grump to make a suggestion:

At the start, 00:41 the first move after the turn back to the front, your soto uke, does not cross your center line. Traditionally this is a block (although it can be an arm break, throw or punch etc) but if you conceive it as a block, it should cross your center line so as to be able to cover the far lung.

While some styles do this by stretching the arm across the body, we do it by rotating the hips to the right to bring the soto uke across.

Ted

Surviving Armed Assaults: A Martial Artists Guide to Weapons, Street Violence, and Countervailing Force...my book review.


Edited by ttruscott (05/08/08 01:52 PM)
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#391948 - 07/01/08 12:06 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: Salek]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
Salek,
I shot a version of Bassai last evening. In Chung Do Kwan it is sometimes referred to as Palcheck. I haven't been working on Bassai much as of late and The video shows it. This video shows some of the minor variations in movement between Shotokan Bassai Dai and Chung do Kwan Palcheck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adlq7KnjhqI

Maybe I could post some application clips in a few days.
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www.prairiemartialarts.com

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#391949 - 07/01/08 03:10 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: Salek]
schanne Offline
breaks things

Registered: 02/18/04
Posts: 4370
Loc: Woodbury NJ
Very nice Bassai!...if I may, keep your back stright vs. leaning over during the double punches.
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The way of the warrior does not include other ways... Miyamoto Musashi Schanne

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#391950 - 07/01/08 04:24 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: schanne]
oldman Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/28/04
Posts: 5884
schanne,
... not only during the double punches but leaning forward at other times too. I also need to relax more. The blocks could be a lot more crisp with less tension in the arms and shoulders. Also I need to keep my eyes and head up. Basically I just need to do what I keep telling my students to do.
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www.prairiemartialarts.com

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#391951 - 07/01/08 06:06 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: oldman]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
Nice kata. We do the same one. Timing is a little different, probably a school to school thing.
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The older I get, the better I was!

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#391952 - 08/08/08 01:11 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: underdog]
shuri10 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 6
This kata is known among many karate systems. There are differences in the hand movements and speed. I also practice a similar version of Bassai from the Shuri-Ryu system.
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#391953 - 08/08/08 05:09 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: shuri10]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
heres me running through Passai Dai last year -

http://media.putfile.com/Jim-Neeter-Passai-Dai-Kata-

lots of bits and pieces to work on, but im not convinced how it looks counts for everything these days
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Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#391954 - 08/11/08 12:36 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: shoshinkan]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Jim,

FWIW I am not sure external appearance is that important at all really. What is important (IMO) is understanding what the movements might mean and absorbing the techniques and principles to the point where they are useable under pressure. Not that you can tell any of this just from watching someone perform kata. Might still look ropey though! Not that yours did at all BTW but I was interested in the speed of performance-it seems to have a lot fewer dramatic pauses and slow movements than Shotokan Bassai Dai, although it is clearly recognisable as the same kata in origin. I guess Shotokan has been very hung up on kata as theatre.

Also interesting for me is that the ending is virtually the same as our Bassai Sho where otherwise it corresponds to Bassai Dai. I do not know-maybe someone can enlighten me-whether Bassai Sho is just another old Bassai/Passai variant or if it was really developed as a minor form more recently from Bassai Dai by Itosu or others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLjbEyvvufg

Ben

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#391955 - 08/11/08 02:40 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: Barad]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
External appearance is important, but is style specific. External appearance shows if one is using correct technique. Crappy technique looks bad and well executed technique looks good.
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#391956 - 08/11/08 04:40 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: shoshinkan]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Jim,

What is your application for those final movements of this kata?
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#391957 - 08/11/08 06:20 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: Shonuff]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
re the last two movements -

pick leg your leg up, place it down (body change), feed hand and wipe arm (shuto)

LOTS going on with these movements,

however as A Bunkai I teach -

against anything high and straight'ish (commited pushe to chest, punch to face) -

from a fence - turn off line, sharpish (thats the leg pick up and place), so attacker enters your reach with attack but doesn't connect as your cover hand deflects,

then use 'sticking' (touch) principle to target a rake/poke to eyes or shuto to neck dependant on your position.

The next elements I introduce are the placement of the leg to disrupt balance, and the pick uphand, not picking up but striking as a stop hit.

These 2 elements up the response significantly.

Hope that makes sense, it is difficult to write about specific Bunkai for me.

I always miss stuff.....and get it in the wrong order............

the timing in the basic kata is eyes, feet, hands obviously this can become variable in application, and it's messy !
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Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#391958 - 08/11/08 06:31 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: shoshinkan]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
if you scroll to the bottom you can see what im going on about -

http://www.karate.org.yu/articles/passai_bunkai1.htm

knew I had seen it somewhere on the web !
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#391959 - 08/12/08 04:46 AM Re: Bassai! [Re: shoshinkan]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
It is the same as one of the applications I use for the end of the shotokan version. Though bassai sho uses a more similar directional sequence I think your passai is closer to Bassai dai than sho in terms of the mechanics of the movements.
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It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#391960 - 08/12/08 05:10 AM Re: Bassai! [Re: medulanet]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Quote:

External appearance is important, but is style specific. External appearance shows if one is using correct technique. Crappy technique looks bad and well executed technique looks good.




Med,

You are saying techniques "look" bad if the technique is "crappy". However this is circular, really just stating that you take external appearance to indicate the skill in application, which I dispute as an ideal measure. You are correct that good technique means different things to different styles and actually this really supports my point:both could be very effective (or not) while those two styles might think the other's performance looks poor or weak or unfocused or rushed or whatever is considered a defect in a particular style's way of performing kata (the performer being criticised might perhaps say his kata is smooth, fast and relaxed, positive ways to describe the same way of moving and the other's stiff, slow and tense).

I have seen plenty of excellent looking kata performances by people who cannot apply the movements and/or are completely ignorant of the principles and significance of what they are performing. It is just gymnastics. Conversely I have had very effective moves put on me taken directly from kata by people whose actual solo performance is scrappy in appearance but who have a good feel for application, which I would call good technique. This is what leads me to think that appearance is really not always a good guide.

B.

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#391961 - 08/12/08 05:24 AM Re: Bassai! [Re: Shonuff]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
well I do the proper one........................badly !
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#391962 - 08/12/08 05:26 AM Re: Bassai! [Re: shoshinkan]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
heres a vid from proberly the early 70's of the Seito Matsumura Passai Sho and then Dai kata -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPJyhEGfsQ4
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#391963 - 08/12/08 02:29 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: Barad]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

However this is circular, really just stating that you take external appearance to indicate the skill in application, which I dispute as an ideal measure. B.




I didn't say that. I said nothing of application, just proper technique. Now, I will say that good technique is one indicator of application potential of an individual's technique, but not the determining factor.

I have seen people who perform their kata well and cannot apply its techniques and principles. However, I have never met a karateman with what I would consider poor technique be good at applying their technique on me with any skill short of simply being a brawler/street fighter. And you don't need karate for that. But I don't know, what you consider a crappy technique and what I consider a crappy technique may be two very different things.
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