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#391953 - 08/08/08 05:09 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: shuri10]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
heres me running through Passai Dai last year -

http://media.putfile.com/Jim-Neeter-Passai-Dai-Kata-

lots of bits and pieces to work on, but im not convinced how it looks counts for everything these days
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#391954 - 08/11/08 12:36 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: shoshinkan]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Jim,

FWIW I am not sure external appearance is that important at all really. What is important (IMO) is understanding what the movements might mean and absorbing the techniques and principles to the point where they are useable under pressure. Not that you can tell any of this just from watching someone perform kata. Might still look ropey though! Not that yours did at all BTW but I was interested in the speed of performance-it seems to have a lot fewer dramatic pauses and slow movements than Shotokan Bassai Dai, although it is clearly recognisable as the same kata in origin. I guess Shotokan has been very hung up on kata as theatre.

Also interesting for me is that the ending is virtually the same as our Bassai Sho where otherwise it corresponds to Bassai Dai. I do not know-maybe someone can enlighten me-whether Bassai Sho is just another old Bassai/Passai variant or if it was really developed as a minor form more recently from Bassai Dai by Itosu or others.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLjbEyvvufg

Ben

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#391955 - 08/11/08 02:40 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: Barad]
medulanet Offline
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Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
External appearance is important, but is style specific. External appearance shows if one is using correct technique. Crappy technique looks bad and well executed technique looks good.
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Dulaney Dojo

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#391956 - 08/11/08 04:40 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: shoshinkan]
Shonuff Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
Jim,

What is your application for those final movements of this kata?
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#391957 - 08/11/08 06:20 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: Shonuff]
shoshinkan Offline
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Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
re the last two movements -

pick leg your leg up, place it down (body change), feed hand and wipe arm (shuto)

LOTS going on with these movements,

however as A Bunkai I teach -

against anything high and straight'ish (commited pushe to chest, punch to face) -

from a fence - turn off line, sharpish (thats the leg pick up and place), so attacker enters your reach with attack but doesn't connect as your cover hand deflects,

then use 'sticking' (touch) principle to target a rake/poke to eyes or shuto to neck dependant on your position.

The next elements I introduce are the placement of the leg to disrupt balance, and the pick uphand, not picking up but striking as a stop hit.

These 2 elements up the response significantly.

Hope that makes sense, it is difficult to write about specific Bunkai for me.

I always miss stuff.....and get it in the wrong order............

the timing in the basic kata is eyes, feet, hands obviously this can become variable in application, and it's messy !
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#391958 - 08/11/08 06:31 PM Re: Bassai! [Re: shoshinkan]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
if you scroll to the bottom you can see what im going on about -

http://www.karate.org.yu/articles/passai_bunkai1.htm

knew I had seen it somewhere on the web !
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#391959 - 08/12/08 04:46 AM Re: Bassai! [Re: shoshinkan]
Shonuff Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 603
Loc: London, UK
It is the same as one of the applications I use for the end of the shotokan version. Though bassai sho uses a more similar directional sequence I think your passai is closer to Bassai dai than sho in terms of the mechanics of the movements.
_________________________
It's Shotokan not Shoto-can't!!!

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#391960 - 08/12/08 05:10 AM Re: Bassai! [Re: medulanet]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Quote:

External appearance is important, but is style specific. External appearance shows if one is using correct technique. Crappy technique looks bad and well executed technique looks good.




Med,

You are saying techniques "look" bad if the technique is "crappy". However this is circular, really just stating that you take external appearance to indicate the skill in application, which I dispute as an ideal measure. You are correct that good technique means different things to different styles and actually this really supports my point:both could be very effective (or not) while those two styles might think the other's performance looks poor or weak or unfocused or rushed or whatever is considered a defect in a particular style's way of performing kata (the performer being criticised might perhaps say his kata is smooth, fast and relaxed, positive ways to describe the same way of moving and the other's stiff, slow and tense).

I have seen plenty of excellent looking kata performances by people who cannot apply the movements and/or are completely ignorant of the principles and significance of what they are performing. It is just gymnastics. Conversely I have had very effective moves put on me taken directly from kata by people whose actual solo performance is scrappy in appearance but who have a good feel for application, which I would call good technique. This is what leads me to think that appearance is really not always a good guide.

B.

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#391961 - 08/12/08 05:24 AM Re: Bassai! [Re: Shonuff]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
well I do the proper one........................badly !
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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#391962 - 08/12/08 05:26 AM Re: Bassai! [Re: shoshinkan]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
heres a vid from proberly the early 70's of the Seito Matsumura Passai Sho and then Dai kata -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPJyhEGfsQ4
_________________________
Jim Neeter

www.shoshinkanuk.blogspot.com

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