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#391858 - 04/24/08 08:27 PM Re: Kyusho Jutsu [Re: medulanet]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
is kyusho limited to nerve strikes? im of the mind that hitting someone just about anywhere along the centerline can cause damage. you can hit someone in a muscle to make it spasam, the collar bone will hurt if struck or even be broken. striking tendons on the forearm make the hand go numb, and then theres shots to the neck and eyes, temple and ears. nerve strikes are a fraction of "vital points".

and yes med i totally agree, its very good to note that these methods are best made use of along with imobilizing techniques. similar to the "art of biting", you hold them so they can't get away and are forced to take some pain.
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#391859 - 04/24/08 08:58 PM Re: Kyusho Jutsu [Re: student_of_life]
Raul Perez Offline
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Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
The way we teach it is this... Kyusho is vital point attacking... not just PP/nerve attacking.

obvious attacks are the eyes, nose, throat, solar plexus.

But what if he is attacking and is on one leg (ie kicking) and I evade. His vital point is his leg that is rooted to the ground. I attack his leg... Kyusho Jitsu.
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#391860 - 04/24/08 09:03 PM Re: Kyusho Jutsu [Re: student_of_life]
Zach_Zinn Offline
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Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
My understanding of the term kyusho was that it implied mostly striking of nerve plexus and such, I didn't realize some people use it to include anatomically vulnerable areas. Looking at the wiki page I see that the definition is more inclusive than I once thought.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/24/08 09:08 PM)

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#391861 - 04/24/08 09:04 PM Re: Kyusho Jutsu [Re: Raul Perez]
student_of_life Offline
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Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
that seems like a very complete way of teaching how to fight. similar to the philipino idea of de-fanging the snake, you just smash what ever is close.
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#391862 - 04/25/08 03:20 AM Re: Kyusho Jutsu [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
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Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:




is kyusho limited to nerve strikes? im of the mind that hitting someone just about anywhere along the centerline can cause damage. you can hit someone in a muscle to make it spasam,





From my perspective.
When the fur is flying in an attacker and defender situation
I think it would depend on the person and what state they are in.
Wasting time on hitting something on an attacker like certain parts of the muscle mass as opposed to a target that will bring better results isnt the best thing to do. Some people can absorb a lot of damage and only feel it after the adrenalin/ alcohol/ drugs have worn off.
Quote:






Quote:

i think its worth pointing ot that "when the fur is flying" does not really tipify most self defence





Yes it does.
Quote:



situations. if a self defence sitation carrys on for longer then it takes for someone to sucker punch you, then its a fight and not self defence.



Same thing,

Quote:




i don't mean to rear the "one punch ko" sh!te storm again, but i like paul vunak's concept of self defence. which is BAM, run. in other words pre-emtive striking makes hitting these points easier because there is no fur flying, just your victim standing in front of you thinking he has an advantage.



That would be realy nice if they did that.
Apart from the idiots they dont. Victim?
Both attacker and defender can/ might get bust up so who is the victim? Ippon scoring might be a good thing but it doesnt always work like that.

Quote:


something to consider in favor of vital point striking.

if you want to see what im talking about youtube oyata, alot of his demos begin facing someone with their arms down, and in a kind of quick draw type thing, when his attacker moves in to touch him, oyata digs in his little meat hooks and bodies hit the floor.




Nice for him but it doesnt work like that.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/25/08 03:34 AM)

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#391863 - 04/25/08 03:22 AM Re: Kyusho Jutsu [Re: Raul Perez]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

The way we teach it is this... Kyusho is vital point attacking... not just PP/nerve attacking.

obvious attacks are the eyes, nose, throat, solar plexus.

But what if he is attacking and is on one leg (ie kicking) and I evade. His vital point is his leg that is rooted to the ground. I attack his leg... Kyusho Jitsu.




More my way of thinking.
Practical

Jude

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#391864 - 04/25/08 05:26 AM Re: Kyusho Jutsu [Re: jude33]
Barad Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/06
Posts: 427
Jude,

Sorry to misunderstand over what exactly you want a photo of-I thought you meant a photo of me striking the thigh point.

This is a link to the kind of thigh pad we use-turns out is is actually intended for cricket!

http://www.cricketbatsetc.co.uk/slazenger-xtec-armour-thigh-pad-p-318.html

As for instruction, there are a few others aside from Kissaki if you look. Vince Morris's courses are usually open to non-Kissaki members if you are interested and are easily understood by anyone with experience of shorin type kata. I will probably leave a message on the forum when he is next over. If you want a Kissaki club, there are about six or seven throughout the UK and then a few in the US based in New Jersey.

As for hitting a small point on GB31, close up with a knee is not so hard with practice and at medium range with a shin (i.e. a relatively large weapon) also fine with practice. Thai boxers seem to do something similar all the time. The same is true for attacks to the jaw (stomach 5) with say a rising forearm (age uke in the kata/kihon), a large weapon gives you a good chance of hitting even a quite small target.

Generally IMO whether people want to call it kyusho or just hitting vunerable points, if you jab or punch the pit of the throat for example, it does not matter whether you know or care to call it conception vessel 22, the effect is the same. Ian Abernethy seems to be talking about the same kyusho leg points in this article on low kicking but using Western anatomical terms and I am personally happy with that as I am interested in effect, not tradition per se.

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_27.asp


I have to agree with Medulanet that grabbing and trapping is often (although not always) integral to facilitating the strikes hence kyusho and tuite seen in controlling an arm on the wrist points (heart 5 and Lung 8) whilst say striking to the jaw with the forearm as I mentioned before and exactly as the kata shows age uke ("rising block/receiving technique") with hikite. The grab on the wrist points is supposed to make the jaw and neck points more sensitive to attack, as well as physically controlling and unbalancing someone, although I am fairly sure if I hit someone on the jaw with a forearm smash without holding the arm, it will still have a strong effect on them.

Equally the thigh kick (GB31) with the shin can be done from a grappling position, albeit risking a takedown against yourself if you get it wrong! Or it can be done from medium range without any other kind of grappling or locking at all and it still works well.

B

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#391865 - 04/25/08 10:20 AM Re: Kyusho Jutsu [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
oh jude, don't bring me down.
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#391866 - 04/25/08 10:46 AM Re: Kyusho Jutsu [Re: jude33]
student_of_life Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/12/05
Posts: 1032
Loc: Newfoundland, Canada
actually....

"That would be realy nice if they did that.
Apart from the idiots they dont. Victim?
Both attacker and defender can/ might get bust up so who is the victim? Ippon scoring might be a good thing but it doesnt always work like that."

pre-emptive striking makes a victim out of an attacker. its not always gonna work, but nothing will always work. just to clarify, pre-emptive means "pre", as in before he attacks you. just to break it down further, cause i know i'll have to, when the attacker makes his intent aparrent you hit him. not that hard really, some one says "hey punk, i don't like your.....BAM, shot to the eyes. and then you run. simple enogh?

"Nice for him but it doesnt work like that."

if you have something to add to the conversation then please add it, if your gonna rain on a senior karate ka's parade then whats the point? im not asking you to agree with oyata's system or ideas, but Raul practices a version of oyata's system and you've been agreeing with him all along but when i say the same thing? hmmmmm.

"Yes it does."

i was better off not replying to a thing you said anyway.
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#391867 - 04/25/08 01:48 PM Re: Kyusho Jutsu [Re: student_of_life]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

oh jude, don't bring me down.




didint.

Quote:



Apart from the idiots they dont





Means that some people(idiots) do while others dont
So in I way I agree and adding to it that some dont.

Quote:



Ippon scoring might be a good thing but it doesnt always work like that




I did say Ippon scoring might be a good thing means I partly agree if it can be done that way, but it doesnt always happen like that.
Always means not every time. It doesnt mean it doesnt happen.
So in away I am still partly agreeing.

Quote:


Nice for him but it doesnt work like that.





That means it doesnt work like that. People dont stand there with their hands down.

So you see in a way I was agreeing and adding to not totaly disagreeing. So if you are getting annoyed there is no need.
Breath in count to 6 breath out and think of a wonderfull world where there is no hassle.

Jude



Edited by jude33 (04/25/08 02:07 PM)

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