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#391715 - 04/18/08 02:55 PM Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board?
JoshuaMonjin Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 427
Loc: Fallon, Nevada
Hello, I was curious if anyone else had come into contact with this guy Jim Wagner? http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/ I attended a seminar a few years ago and found his two handed gun disarm to be interesting. However, I feel that his attitudes towards the extremes of RBSD and disdain for TMA are off-putting. I understand where reality-based systems are coming from and feel that they offer a valid option but that there shouldn't be a need to tear down other choices any more. A personal issue is that his reality of necessary knowledge in self-defense seems alittle extreme and doesn't fit my reality at the moment.
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#391716 - 04/18/08 06:45 PM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: JoshuaMonjin]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Personally I think you're much better off with Geoff thompson, Tony blauer, Paul Vunak or anyone else, Jim Wagner has never really impressed me much, especially that attitude.
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Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#391717 - 04/18/08 06:52 PM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: Stormdragon]
JoshuaMonjin Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 427
Loc: Fallon, Nevada
I agree, I personally wouldn't train with him. Is that the reason there is no mention of him on here? That is more of what I was getting at, the fact that searching returned no mention of him at all.
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#391718 - 04/18/08 09:10 PM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: JoshuaMonjin]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Yeah he's never come across to me as particularly popular. A lot of it is probably his lack of anything particularly revolutionary, his attitude especially his over blown reputation) and the way he just sort of engineers an out of proportion idea of fear and whatnot.
Also the fact that this forum is the predominant habitat for KM and Systema practionters on this site.
_________________________
Member of DaJoGen MMA school under Dave Hagen and Team Chaos fight team under Denver Mangiyatan and Chris Toquero, ran out of Zanshin Martial Arts in Salem Oregon: http://www.zanshinarts.org/Home.aspx,

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#391719 - 04/19/08 12:14 PM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: Stormdragon]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Jim Wagner is a Legend in his own mind. Reminds me a lot of Massad Ayoob. for those of you who don't know who don't know who that is, he is an "expert" who is constantly writing editorials and columns for Combat handguns magazine as well as others. Listening to him you'd swear he gets into a fights with gangs of machine gun-wielding bad guys weekly.
Wagners Columns in BB Magazine can sometimes be entertaining sometimes comical and once in a while there is some common sense things there but I would rather listen to some of the above mentioned instructors as well as those like Mike Lee Kanerek.

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#391720 - 04/19/08 12:28 PM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: Glockmeister]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Listening to him you'd swear he gets into a fights with gangs of machine gun-wielding bad guys weekly.
Wagners Columns in BB Magazine can sometimes be entertaining sometimes comical and once in a while there is some common sense




Ah......that's where I remember that name from. Yes, Wagner doesn't consider anyone to be any good in SD unless they have done it ALL FOR R34L. Hijacked, stabbed, gunshot, etc.

Goofball.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#391721 - 04/21/08 09:02 AM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: MattJ]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Yeah, in one of his recent articles in BB, he claimed that unless your self defense or martial arts instructor got into "real" fights on a regular basis or had to defend his or herself against violent attacks often that they couldn't teach real self defense even if they were experienced boxers, grapplers, etc, because that didn't constitute "real fighting" he also recommended that if that applied to you and you were thinking of being an instructor, you should first go work as a bouncer, corrections officer or join the military to get a feel for "real self defense" first.
Yes, he's a goofball. He also endorses that goofy "hammerhead" focus mitt. That is a focus mitt molded like a human head, because of course, otherwise, it's not "realistic.

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#391722 - 04/21/08 10:52 AM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: Glockmeister]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I figured if this thread stay up long enough, everyone would essentially say what I was going to. I was right.

Wagner does seem to really come off like a tool. He definitely takes the goofy approach. I agree about the human head focus pad comment.

However guys, I'm sure there is a huge audience, just as goofy, that is paying him handsomely. That's what all this is about. Playing off people's fears is a great way to make a large chunk of change. Systema, Krav Maga, etc. (RBSD in general) have mastered this aspect of marketing.

-John

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#391723 - 04/21/08 01:02 PM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: JKogas]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
You right. I just wanted say I thought that name sounded familiar and it wasn't until the "head focus mit" was mentioned.
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#391724 - 04/21/08 03:51 PM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: JKogas]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
Honestly, I have to agree with John here. I hate the way these arts market themselves. I know that everyone has to make a living but....

That's one thing that I really agree with Matt Thornton about, that the atheletic pursuit of combative truth generally leads to a heathier psycological state.

I've been doing a long commute for a few months now (two hours by bus and train each way), so I picked up Black Belt for the last two months so I could kill ten minutes. I actually crack up laughing when I read Jim Wagner's column. I can't believe that he seems to addvocate that the general public should (to parapharse) 'be on the lookout for car bombs and wmds.' Come on! Who wants to live their life like that?

Living in a constant state of fear disguised as preparedness has nothing to do with being a warrior.

Train hard, sweat, laugh with your partners, get tapped out, learn: try to enjoy the life your so eager to protect.

--Chris


Edited by Ames (04/21/08 03:51 PM)
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--Basho

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#391725 - 04/21/08 04:37 PM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: Ames]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:


That's one thing that I really agree with Matt Thornton about, that the atheletic pursuit of combative truth generally leads to a heathier psycological state.




That is absolutely right. I’ve long agreed with this. Its funny the way people act when they begin to train in “street combat”. They almost program themselves to find trouble, like a self-fulfilling prophesy.

Great post by the way Chris!

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#391726 - 04/21/08 06:41 PM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: JKogas]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
Wagner hasnever been at a loss as to how to market himself. I seem to remember when he got a job as a Police officer, he came out with a book and a video on "how to get a job as a police officer". Everything he did seemed to be about padding his resume.

He offered his services to Black Belt Magazine to give readers the "inside scoop" on police tactics and training and then used the exposure to push his own company. To me, he came across as a sellout from day one.

The best was when he quit his police job to be a Federal Air Marshall (which several of my friends did post 9-11). He wrote an article to chronicle his journey into the elite world of national anti-terrorism, talking it up like an army recruiter to a class of high school seniors. Those working FAM know that job is glorified security guard duty and does not deserve the hype. I think Wagner did it a short time (like most) before quitting. I would think that most agencies would not appreciate his name dropping and leapfrogging on their reputations.

He rubs me the wrong way... obviously.
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#391727 - 04/22/08 12:19 AM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: Fletch1]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
So, you are not going to go out and buy the head focus mitt?

lol
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#391728 - 04/22/08 08:59 AM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: JasonM]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
Yeah he mentions he worked a whopping whole two years in corrections as well. To me and my fellow C/O's, that's still a rookie.

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#391729 - 04/23/08 01:12 AM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: Glockmeister]
JoshuaMonjin Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 427
Loc: Fallon, Nevada
So, basically no redeeming qualities we can see. Does he actually work with all of those European Special Ops teams he claims to? Most people would look at that and say that is reason enough to train with him, valid or not.
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#391730 - 04/23/08 10:17 AM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: JoshuaMonjin]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
You pick up the recent copy of Black Belt magazine? In there, "Sgt" Jim Wagner was discussing gun disarms from a distance. and describes a way to run towards an armed person to get close enough to disarm. Any halfway intelligent person is going to be running away, whether LEO or not, to get to safety first. Also he claims in doing so, you stand a good chance of getting shot (duh!) Also, he claims if you are say, shot in the neck, you still should have 3 seconds that you can function to "take that bad guy with you"
man What a dreamer.

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#391731 - 04/23/08 10:26 AM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: Glockmeister]
JasonM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/17/05
Posts: 2502
He says that for real? WOW!!
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#391732 - 04/23/08 02:10 PM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: Glockmeister]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

Also, he claims if you are say, shot in the neck, you still should have 3 seconds that you can function to "take that bad guy with you"
man What a dreamer.




_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#391733 - 04/24/08 09:28 AM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: MattJ]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Well it appears Jim Wagner = douche... but I could be mistaken lol
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"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#391734 - 04/24/08 11:56 AM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: Glockmeister]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

Also, he claims if you are say, shot in the neck, you still should have 3 seconds that you can function to "take that bad guy with you"





Actually there is some truth to that, when I was in NYC I studied under the Great Master Sho'nuff (other then Bruce Leroy, the greatest fighter in the history of New York). And he taught if for some reason you don't catch the bullet in your teeth, and get shot in the neck, all you have to do is align you chi with your shockra's, and then you can use the Jazz hands attack to take out the bad guy.

Easily done within 3 seconds.
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Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#391735 - 04/24/08 12:44 PM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: Kimo2007]
Ames Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/05
Posts: 1117
How long does it take to say "O, S!#T I just got shot in the neck?"
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"Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought."
--Basho

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#391736 - 04/24/08 02:55 PM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: Ames]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
um about 2 and a half seconds which gives you then a half second to take the bad guy with you.

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#391737 - 04/29/08 03:46 PM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: Glockmeister]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
He loves to pose in his tactical gear. It seems to convey an image of authenticity.

http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/aboutjimwagner.html

Bio screams "Look at me dammit!".


Edited by Fletch1 (04/29/08 03:52 PM)
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www.brazilianjiujitsunaples.com

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#391738 - 05/02/08 04:57 PM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: Fletch1]
Glockmeister Offline
Member

Registered: 12/22/05
Posts: 255
Loc: Lancaster, Pa
He has said before in an article, that if you are not wearing full gear, you can't be learning "reality based" self defense. He even had an article about defending against sniper attacks. Sorry, if a sniper has attacked you, you don't know it till you fall bleeding to the ground.

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#391739 - 05/02/08 05:19 PM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: Glockmeister]
JoshuaMonjin Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 427
Loc: Fallon, Nevada
Unless it's a really bad sniper though.
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#391740 - 06/11/08 10:38 PM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? *DELETED* [Re: JoshuaMonjin]
jeffk Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/11/08
Posts: 2
Post deleted by Dedicated1

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#391741 - 06/11/08 10:58 PM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? [Re: jeffk]
JoshuaMonjin Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 427
Loc: Fallon, Nevada
I don't think you are making very concise points and come across as being more advertising then anything else. What exactly does it help with? Your examples aren't well defined as relating to the actual points of discussion.
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#391742 - 06/12/08 12:51 AM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? *DELETED* [Re: jeffk]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
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The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#391743 - 06/12/08 10:08 PM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? *DELETED* [Re: BrianS]
JoshuaMonjin Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 427
Loc: Fallon, Nevada
Thanks Dedicated1, I appreciate the intervention.
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#391744 - 06/13/08 06:19 PM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? *DELETED* [Re: JoshuaMonjin]
jeffk Offline
Stranger

Registered: 06/11/08
Posts: 2
Sorry, I can see how I was way out of line with my post. I was obviously just trying to get free swag and suggest folks buy stuff you don't need. Not to mention the rudeness of me having the audacity to suggust a few counterpoints to the whole of the negative spirit of the thread. B.S. could have a discussion but instead I get censored, and apparently intellectually owned. And yes, my points were vague but I didn't think they would be that incoherant to anyone reading. Thanks for the time and reminding me why I shouln't bother posting, might upset someone -JK

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#391745 - 06/13/08 07:22 PM Re: Jim Wagner RBSD not on the board? *DELETED* [Re: jeffk]
JoshuaMonjin Offline
Member

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 427
Loc: Fallon, Nevada
Look man, I don't mind if you have some opposing viewpoints but state them clearly with some valid examples to properly contribute to any discussion. There has a been a massive amount of spam and advertisements recently on this board and so we are all a little jumpy about it.
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