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#391648 - 04/18/08 03:01 PM Re: Which kata is best for self defense? [Re: BodhiHuss]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
Most of our katas are pretty short. No problem teaching them the kata in 3 months. Teach, and train the techniques in the kata in 3 months time? Absolutely.

The kata is only to remember them after the classes are over. It's up to the individual to continue training after that.

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#391649 - 04/18/08 03:26 PM Re: Which kata is best for self defense? [Re: Shonuff]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
It depends on their level of experience. However, if I had to teach a student brand new to martial arts I would teach them Fukyugata Ni. Now by teach the kata I mean the first two months would be exclusively dedicated to learning the basic techniques in the kata and applying them against committed attacks. Using the striking techniques against kick shields and focus mitts. And seperating the grappling techs (pretty much all standing in this one) to teach the student how to obtain a dominant position. The last month would combine the previous training and add developing fluid motion, speed, overall balanced conditioning and intent through kata performance. Since more advanced power generation would be out of the question a strictly power/strength based approach would be used aimed at very general vital regions such as groin, nose, jaw, outside/inside of thighs, and the gut. It has much of the self defense techs you'll ever need such as a variety of very simple striking techniques and basic stances such as walking, horse, and front stance. No complex shuto chudan/gendan uke (most advanced of intermediate techs). It has a variety of basic blocking and covering techniques. It also contains grappling entrance techniques to provide a vehicle for application of grappling/wrestling skill and many joint locking techniques found in more advanced kata.

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#391650 - 04/18/08 03:32 PM Re: Which kata is best for self defense? [Re: harlan]
budobrubbie Offline
Member

Registered: 07/11/04
Posts: 275
Loc: Northeast U.S.
From a Shorin-ryu perspective, I would have to agree with Mr. Perez. Naihanchin Shodan has many applicable self-defense techniques. I don't know Sanchin and it's true, it's not practiced in my style, so I can't really comment on that. An alternative would be Passai Sho, which also teaches joint locks, throws and ground-fighting techniques, as well as an emphasis on tai-sabaki. IMHO.

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#391651 - 04/18/08 04:37 PM Re: Which kata is best for self defense? [Re: budobrubbie]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Quote:

An alternative would be Passai Sho, which also teaches joint locks, throws and ground-fighting techniques, as well as an emphasis on tai-sabaki. IMHO.




Watch out, they're gonna to get you. Your not supposed to say the k-word and the g-f word here in the same sentence. Have at him boys.
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#391652 - 04/18/08 05:41 PM Re: Which kata is best for self defense? [Re: Shonuff]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

More interesting to me than which style/art is best for self defense is the question of which kata?

If you had to teach someone effective self defense skills within a 3 month time limit, for use in everyday situations, but you had to derive your teachings from a singe karate kata, which would you pick and why?




Goju seisan, it has alot of nasty stuff that doesn't require alot of fine motor skill, and can be used by anyone.
Obviously that's true of many kata, but seisan has always struck me as very simple and to the point.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/18/08 05:43 PM)

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#391653 - 04/18/08 05:47 PM Re: Which kata is best for self defense? [Re: BodhiHuss]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:

Quote:

If you had to teach someone effective self defense skills within a 3 month time limit, for use in everyday situations, but you had to derive your teachings from a singe karate kata, which would you pick and why?




No kata. Teach a few basic techniques and drill them over and over and over and over. You think you can learn, understand, and apply the principles of a kata in 3 months?




You're reading too much into the question.

I don't think he's talking about mastering a kata or it's principles, just asking which you would "bring to a desert island" kind of thing.

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#391654 - 04/18/08 06:46 PM Re: Which kata is best for self defense? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
If the goal was a 3 month competency program I'd simply teach stick and several of its open hand uses for the general movement too.

I've been training people for too long and don't see karate having much value in 3 months. The role of kata is a long term study as it was meant to be.

Just my opinion.
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#391655 - 04/18/08 07:46 PM Re: Which kata is best for self defense? [Re: Victor Smith]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Bah, you guys over analyze everything lol. I think we all realize how little can be acheived in a 3 months period.

Anyway, given the way he phrased it:
Quote:

but you had to derive your teachings from a singe karate kata




I assume that teaching a few applications is exactly what Shonuff was talking about, he's just wanting to know which kata those would come from, in our eyes.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (04/18/08 07:48 PM)

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#391656 - 04/18/08 07:58 PM Re: Which kata is best for self defense? [Re: Stormdragon]
Seiken Offline
Member

Registered: 03/29/08
Posts: 131
Loc: USA
Quote:

It's not practiced in Shorin ryu, or, at least not in Matsubayashi.




One could wonder why Nagamine left it out, perhaps because of the kata he created? Did he study long enough? Interesting topic. I do know he learned from Chotoku Kyan who did teach Seisan and was one of Nagamines teachers. And other students of Kyan taught Seisan kata. Hmm...

I should of been more specific though, its found in the 3 major styles, Shuri, Naha, Tomari. Not including japanese styles, I know its in 13 Okinawan karate substyles. Only a few katas can be found in so many styles, Kusanku(13), Passai(14), NaihanchiShodan(14), Gojushiho(13),Chinto(12). With dozens others appearing in one or two styles, and only a handful in about six give or take two.

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#391657 - 04/18/08 10:21 PM Re: Which kata is best for self defense? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Zach,

In my group the Bando Short Stick form is part of our studies, and the stick techniques I would teach come from it.

Have to be honest in the short term the minute I put a stick in a beginners hand they can hit 10 times harder, etc.

The stick techniques are also an empty hand art which I teach too. It likewise is a art that can use anything I place in my hands with the same techniques.

Using a natural weapon there is a tremendous amount that can be covered in 3 months, whereas the empty hand arts are not in the same time frame.

If I was restricted to 3 months and empty hand, I'd just pick 3 or 4 techniques and show how you can work into any attack in existence with them, and of course pray if that student had to try same.
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