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#390313 - 04/07/08 12:40 AM Re: Enough with the pointless posts [Re: MattJ]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
If "open season" is the law of the land, then by definition of forum rules, that becomes the site personality and part of the rules of engagement. Folks like me are not welcome and should leave. That is pretty much what I sense and posting here might just be a bad habit I shall have to address in turn with my other bad habits.

However, if this is NOT necessarily the site rule, then here are three ideas.

(1) Let it be understood in each section's rules, what the forbidden topics are. As long as you are not discussing something forbidden, then you should not be subject to abuse.

(2)Rules of engagement should also be posted on a stickie. Sarcasm is or is not allowed overtly stated. It is a choice. Matt likes it. I don't. If the rules clearly state that it is allowed, then I am aware and post at my own risk.

(3) No one should be posting in a domain where they have no belief and his sole purpose is to create discord. This is trolling regardless of who does it. This conduct is disrespectful to the people who are trying to work with the skills in that domain. If you do not train in or value a particular domain within fighting arts, then just simply don't post there. Let the people who train it, use it.
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#390314 - 04/07/08 12:47 AM Re: Enough with the pointless posts [Re: MattJ]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
By the way, the 16 year old wanting to create a new martial arts style is a good example of where sarcasm is not necessary. The easiest thing to do if the kid annoys you is to just not respond.
_________________________
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#390315 - 04/07/08 03:30 AM Re: Enough with the pointless posts [Re: underdog]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Regardless of any rules posted in any section people are still going to post what they want. People are still going to react emotionally to certain subjects. People are still going to get their feelings hurt. The forum rules are general and basic for a reason. If you start making too many rules and dictating the type of responses allowed the forum will be stifled and be abandoned by the majority. Everyone is sarcastic at some point and it's a matter of perspective that warrants it. What you feel warrants a sarcastic response might not be seen the same way by others. I do agree that out right personal attacks should not be tolerated but we shouldn’t have to sugar coat our feelings for the few. If you have been around the forum for a while you get a feel for the various personalities and are able to gauge what is simply sarcasm and what is a "cheap shot". For new members it's harder to gauge. Why should we tell people to temper their personalities and emotions for someone who doesn't have the foresight to use the search function or who comes to the forum on a soap box proclaiming they are the end all master and can shoot chi balls from their genitals? How many times should we answer the same question before expecting someone to read a previous post? I remember on several occasions having the same question asked by different people in three different posts on the same page. Yes my reaction to anyone who comes on a forum and states they can move people with their chi is always going to be sarcastic. Why? Because unless they come out from the start and provide proof they are lying.

What it comes down to is you can't tell people to change their personality for the sake of an anonymous person on a forum. Outright personal attacks are one thing but telling people they can only answer post sarcastically if it falls in someone else’s parameters isn't going to happen. You are more than welcome to come to the individual’s defense when it does but you can't tell everyone to put on a happy face and always be kind and courteous.
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Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#390316 - 04/07/08 07:36 AM Re: Enough with the pointless posts [Re: laf7773]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
There are some good points here, most significantly, that people are going to post what they want regardless of rules. I usually post on a subscription forum where, since people pay for their membership, trolling is generally not a problem. Oversight is also tighter for rules. I more than change "gears" to come here. I have to change the whole vehical and road map.

How about this- change the forum titles and categories to reflect actual use when that would be helpful. This is rare. In the past we have added sections like Philipino arts, and redefined areas like Internal Arts.

In the case of the power chi ball throwers, we redefined the internal arts section. If the chi ball throwers still feel their interest is applicable to the fighting arts, then they could have their own section. Why not?

The one that effects me personally, is the PP section. People with no interest in PP invade that section, disrupt our threads to demand "proof" and ridicule what we do. For the most part, I ignore their posts and read letting half a dozen posts go by until a pp practitioner posts with whom I can continue the discussion.

I think, Lane, it might be appropriate, even in a public free forum, to expect moderators to weed out this kind of disruption. A reasonable person can stay out of the areas they hold in little regard. Such a person is free to develop his art and select his coaches. However, he should remember that the arts are varied and personal. When one logs on to fightingarts and sees the many forum area titles, it should be clear that part of the mission here is to honor diversity.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#390317 - 04/07/08 08:11 AM Re: Enough with the pointless posts [Re: underdog]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I agree but unfortunately it's well within their right to go into sections of the forum that they don't agree with and question the validity of certain issues, not to reek havoc and cause issues but to uncover the truth and possibly enlighten people of the truth. Even if they are the ones being enlightened. Although i don't agree with some of the tactics by some members as long as they aren't breaking the forums basic rules they are within their right. Doesn't mean we can't take measures to trim or discourage the activity but it's going to happen. Which is why those who are more tempered in the way they post need to be more active, kind of a checks and balances.

Trust me i know full well the issues of the old "energy arts" section. I moderated it along with the pressure points, health and nutrition and sword arts sections. I saw more than my share of trolls and goons and spent months trying to get the admin to change the name of the energy arts section. Finally new admin came in after i bowed out and made the change. It's been a better since.
_________________________
Enjoy life while you can, you never know when things will change.

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#390318 - 04/07/08 09:03 AM Re: Enough with the pointless posts [Re: laf7773]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
OK then, I think this is pretty well summed up. Given the rules are what they are (permissive), rules are seldom broken. Annoying people are within their rights.

For myself, I've arrived at what is comfortable for me.

(1)I gave up my moderatorship. Personal attacks were defined differently by me than by administration. Being called a drug addict was the last straw.

(2)I ignore disruptive people. I skim through their posts and wait for the good ones.

(3)I leave threads that have been hijacked by people who won't be happy until PP is removed from the site and other veteran trolls (who are more annoying than the visitor trolls).

Now this is my personal coping list. To the original poster, the answer seems to be to just ignore the pointless posts. People have a right to post foolishness. There are a few prohibitions like multiple site postings, and advertising, but for the most part, anything goes. You can like it or not like it. I for one, do not like it, but I still post occaisionally and read the good areas because overall, fightingarts has enough good stuff on it to keep me logging on.

By way of affirmation, I learn the most from the historians on the site. I personally don't have the interest or patience to read history but occaisionally I have questions. I am grateful to the history buffs who kindly answer my questions. I also jump into other karate discussions and there is, generally speaking, a good community here.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#390319 - 04/07/08 10:14 AM Re: Enough with the pointless posts [Re: underdog]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

If "open season" is the law of the land, then by definition of forum rules, that becomes the site personality and part of the rules of engagement. Folks like me are not welcome and should leave.




*sigh* Clearly I was being sarcastic/ironic. But, look at it this way. I lurked on the site for about a month before finially signing up and joining in the discussions. This gave me a chance to get a feel for how things work here, and understand the unique tone of this site. Note that this was long before most of the informational stickies existed. Those stickies were made to help new members easily access routinely asked questions. When they get ignored, the regular members can be a bit sharp in response, since the answers are readily avaliable. I don't think that asking someone to read the stickies before posting is outrageous.

Quote:

(1) Let it be understood in each section's rules, what the forbidden topics are. As long as you are not discussing something forbidden, then you should not be subject to abuse.




The stickies DO enumerate "forbidden" subjects. I *personally* tried not to limit discussions when I was admin, the main offense being personal attacks, not debates on historical/technical merit of any given style.

Quote:

(2)Rules of engagement should also be posted on a stickie. Sarcasm is or is not allowed overtly stated. It is a choice. Matt likes it. I don't. If the rules clearly state that it is allowed, then I am aware and post at my own risk.




Anyone lurking on the site will clearly see that sarcasm is tolerated here to a point. Personal attacks should not be allowed, and are not, as far as I know. Please understand that I am not *advocating* sarcasm as a primary response type. But I don't see expressly banning it, either.

Quote:

(3) No one should be posting in a domain where they have no belief and his sole purpose is to create discord. This is trolling regardless of who does it. This conduct is disrespectful to the people who are trying to work with the skills in that domain. If you do not train in or value a particular domain within fighting arts, then just simply don't post there. Let the people who train it, use it.




Well, I thought that the point of this site was to be exposed to other people's POV. Not everyone is going to agree about every subject. I hardly consider asking for proof or verification to be "trolling". Indeed, stonewalling on those issues would be considered "trolling" to me. Again, the nature of a public forum. Stifling debate because someone is uncomfortable about the subject matter goes against the very nature of a forum. Personal (or otherwise pointless) attacks should not be tolerated, but debate on subject matter is what this place is for.

As far as the 16 year old, I was not sarcastic in my responses to him, in the current thread or the original one (which I disagreed with that one being deleted). However, he did not seem to take seriously the responses he got, and indeed, reposted it with even more swagger. How seriously should that be taken at this point? He doesn't seem interested in our responses, so why go out of the way to be constructive? He doesn't care.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#390320 - 04/07/08 12:26 PM Re: Enough with the pointless posts [Re: underdog]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
If you want to talk 'diversity', then we'll need to provide alot more sections...perhaps 1 forum section per school - would that be diverse enough? so then we can be all be safe from outside criticism via our protected isolation.

Not realistic logistically, since it would be too many rooms to moderate. plus, if one wants protected isolation, they can start a private forum and invite people in, as oppossed to those expecting to use public sections to free positive-only advertise their school without any risk of having their views-for-sale challenged by critical questioning....since they are having their 'diversity' respected.

see the slippery slope there? In the name of protecting diversity, we also manage to squash it.


But I have a possible solution/suggestion, for those who take offense to people questioning our delusions and suspecting our agendas.

Let's have a "Bunkology" section where people can reference all the de-mything they want. plus a "Style Agnostic" section.

that way, people of critical thought won't have to cut through so much crap to get to the heart of topics, which tends to have the effect of de-harmonizing the etherialy blissful threads.

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#390321 - 04/07/08 02:55 PM Re: Enough with the pointless posts [Re: Ed_Morris]
underdog Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1270
Loc: Mansfield, MA U.S.A.
OK it would get to be too much. I get it. So it is back to choice and personal standards of responsibility.
_________________________
The older I get, the better I was!

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#390322 - 04/07/08 03:30 PM Re: Enough with the pointless posts [Re: underdog]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
Matt does make a good point.

Some people do leave themselves with an open invite for abuse. The one about how all martial arts are rubbish and the government is trying to ban his instructor being a fine example.

What is bugging me at th moment is that as one of my posts was used as an example of the offending ilk I don't feel happy being associated with terms such as 'trolling' and 'abuse'.

I don't recall having ever abused anyone until they finally pushed me a little too far. Trolling? Putting a couple of inane, silly joke comments (which tend to be ignored anyway) is in the same league as "government boy" or some of the headcases we get on the TKD forum?
_________________________
See how well I block your punches with my jaw!!

Supporting everyone saying "nuts to cancer"

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