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#389808 - 04/03/08 01:13 PM have you ever seen wing chun.
donchisau Offline
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Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
The wing chun/boxing thread made me wonder if everyone was talking about the same thing. So here are some tests to determine if you know or have ever seen the full wing chun method. These tests are to determine the internal level of development of the wing chun person but they should also work for other internal systems as well.

SLT level

Proper punching power:

Stand in basic YGKM stance hands at side. partner holds large thai pad across his chest. partner runs at puncher. partner punches when person is within range. Ideal is person running should be dropped on his butt most likely running person should get sent backwards in a forceful manner. puncher should not move out of his stance in any way. no wobble no step back or forward.
If the person cannot do this they have not learned SLT level internal mechanics. Person gets run over by the runner
is not a good thing.
SLT basic structure tests.

Stand in basic stance. Partner puts on on chest either either side or center and pushes. Person being tested should maintain stance and absorb incoming force. If person gets pushed out of stance they are still learning SLT skills and not ready to advance.
SLT bong sau test. Pose bong sau. partner pushes on forearm of bong. Bong should not collapse or move. person should be able to maintain stance without moving. Again this is basic SLT skill level.
Chum kui tests. stand in basic stance. partner grabs and holds shoulders. perform chum kui turn. If you cant turn or the upper half of body cant turn you have not learned basic ck skills. turn should be done slowly so as not to hurt partners wrists. At slow pace turn should through person off. hands remain at side

CK bong test- form tan parson holds tan arm. step while changing tan to bong. should expel partner backward.. if this is passed then do same without stepping.

Every level of wing chun has tests to determine if internal portain of art has been learned. If people cannot pass these tests they are not doing wing chun as they have only learned motions not the the full art.

You will find that very few can pass these tests. If you want to do a honest comparison of wc to other methods than you should find someone that can pass these tests and then compare.

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#389809 - 04/03/08 01:24 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
MattJ Online   happy
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Quote:

You will find that very few can pass these tests. If you want to do a honest comparison of wc to other methods than you should find someone that can pass these tests and then compare.




With all due respect, that fact that so few in the art can do those points to problems transmitting the art. Not an attack on Wing Chun. My own AKK suffers from the same problem, as do others.

Don't see nearly as many problems from styles that have resistant training as their core.
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#389810 - 04/03/08 03:42 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
Neko456 Offline
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Those are good test that test the structure of a WC pupil and with that it shows that they understand certain principles or they maybe well schooled.

But what does it prove? That they can fight or that they have a sound foundation in that art. These two things do cross-section to becoming a good possibility but not alway true. Just like having sound good kuens/forms doesn't produce a great fighter but maybe a fair one that represents the system well.

People that can do 1" punches are not always good fighters, they may be able to control and send out their energies but that doesn't mean they can fight. So what is the test proving? Accept that they understand certain principles.

And again some people are great fighters within their own method but they don't fight well outside their styles range or can be faked out by other methods.

Please don't tell me that fakes don't work on WCers.
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#389811 - 04/03/08 04:38 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
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IMO, I'd say those are pretty irrelevant tests when the objective is fighting skill.

Who cares if you have "mastered" wing chun if you still can't fight?



-John

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#389812 - 04/03/08 05:01 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
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Damn thats blunt, but this is Jkogas.

I believe principles are building blocks of good techniques and techniques are trained to produce fighting results. Not aways but theres a good possibility rather then not.
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#389813 - 04/03/08 06:44 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: JKogas]
donchisau Offline
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Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Jkogas your statement is irrelevant and shows a misunderstand of my intent and the post.

There are those with no formal training that can fight like a bat out of hell and those training everyday at MMA gyms that will never be able to fight their way out of a paper bag.

My point is as follows:

To criticize wing chun without ever feeling it or training with or against it is no different than saying you don't like apples because its round like a peach and you don't like peaches because they have fuzzy skin.

Wing chun is a tool designed to operate a certain way. A shotgun can be used as a club but if thats how you think it is supposed to be used you will have a rude surprise when someone aims and pulls the trigger.

A person that can't pass the simple tests I listed is no different than someone using a shotgun as a club.

Wing chun is more than a method to fight. If all you want is to learn how to bang than go to a boxing gym. Wing Chun is concerned with the overall health of the practitioner.walk into any boxing or MMA gym and talk to people that have been at it for 15 years or so. They are goofy and all have nagging injuries of some sort. Wing Chun is meant to make you better physically and mentally as you get older not worse.

The only way to learn how to fight is to fight. This is true for all combat methods. Many folks train wing chun for simple self defense reasons and have no desire to train to fight at anywhere close to a competitive level. A good teacher should offer them the chance to learn at a higher gear but should not force it upon them . This is a good way to lose students and income if you teach for a living. If a teacher doesn't offer students this chance students should go out on there own and find sparring partners. This is how I learned how to fight with wing chun.

If you ever get the chance to spar with someone that can pass the tests I listed do so then complain about wing chun.

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#389814 - 04/03/08 06:53 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: MattJ]
donchisau Offline
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Posts: 73
Mattj - You are correct. Wing Chun is not passed down correctly and it is a shame. The problem is that this goes so deep that wing chun as it was designed is almost extinct.

Leung Jan taught for 50 years or so and had only 12-15 students. Chan Wah had 16 over 30 years of teaching.

Yip Man was the first to have a public school. He left alot out for numerous reasons one being he had a lot of hong kong punks as students the other that several students started to teach after only 3 years or so of training thus draining his rice bowl of his only means of income. Noone would teach people like this the best parts of your method.

From that point on the finer points of wing chun internal methods have washed away. Those that know them have held on to them as some precious secret.

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#389815 - 04/04/08 12:52 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Don -

Where did you learn these tests? Surely not from 'you know who'
I think these are interesting, but I fail to understand some of it - especially the bong sao example. Bong sao is a deflecting movement (ie, moves the opponents energy off to the side, off the center line - NOT rolling forward) and is also never a static movement. "The bong sao never forms" to quote Ip Man. Why would you want to use it for a force-on-force application? Isn't getting the hell off line just as useful for maintaining your structure as just standing there? Sorry if I missed something on that one.
And in Jkogas's defense, he has WC experience and it didn't work for him. I can only guess why, but it seriously isn't for everybody. I also don't know where he trained or how the art was taught to him. Maybe you could fill us in John?

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#389816 - 04/04/08 06:18 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JKogas Offline
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Quote:

I also don't know where he trained or how the art was taught to him. Maybe you could fill us in John?




I trained under a guy who used to be in the Charlotte area back in the early 90's. If you're asking for names, you're not getting any. The guy is still teaching from what I understand (no longer in Charlotte however) and it isn’t my intention to disparage the man or his reputation.

Granted, I didn't stay long enough to become a "master" as some may require of me in order to be critical. However I was there long enough and actually quit because the drive was too far and my son had been born. Tells you how many decent options the area had back in those days….

What I discovered there was that wing chun was great so long as everyone else fought the same way. It was great so long as people gave you those perfect centerline punches. The minute that the punching became unorthodox or less committed however and people’s technique went right out the window.

I didn’t like the fact that everything had to come together perfectly in order for it to “work”. There was too little margin for error.

As I was awakening to more of a western martial arts slant, I thought the training should resemble boxing more than it did. I thought there should have been more sparring and aliveness in general (there was none).

Look guys, I still use principles in my sparring to this day. I’m not saying that wing chun ‘can’t’ work…all I’m saying is that its training methods SUCK for the most part, in my opinion, based upon what I have seen and experienced. You’re all free to think otherwise. Just test your [censored] out against people other than wing chun guys once in a while.


-John

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#389817 - 04/04/08 09:12 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
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I agree with Jkogas but that is true of any system, you may can fight well against another Hun gar, Choy li fat man or WC man or JuJitsu but what happens when you fight outside your systems? Or against an unorthdox fighter.

The tests only prove the tested understands and can apply some of the principles of WC.


Edited by Neko456 (04/04/08 09:13 AM)
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#389818 - 04/04/08 11:08 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: Neko456]
donchisau Offline
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Posts: 73
JK I understand where you are coming from and I agree with many of your points. Your experience with WC is no different than most others I am sorry to say. I learned to fight with wc from sparring with people outside of WC.

I just want to point out that the problem is that much of what passes for wing chun is only at best part of the system. it is due to sifu love and never thinking outside the box that this type of wing chun has passed down and been perpetuated.

Neko you are right about the tests they only prove the understanding and the ability to apply the basic core internal principles. That is the point at which you can then learn how to apply wing chun in combat. If you dont have the internal side all you have are external shapes and you have to come with strange ways to try to get the concepts to work. A great example of this is Leung Tings shifting one foot at a time. A garbage method but practiced long enough against other WC people and it looks like it works. He developed this as an attempt to mimic an aspect of proper internal mechanics that he did not have.

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#389819 - 04/04/08 12:17 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
donchisau Offline
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Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Shikita - Don't have much time right now to answer.

Are you sure that is what YM said or is it just what you were told. A great deal of knowledge has been lost or changed in translation. One of my favorite examples was Yip Ching's first Chicago seminar at Phil's school. Matt should have the tape. Huge difference's between what Yip Ching said and what Sam Kwok translates. Unless you have someone that understands English as well as cantonese (SP) you have no chance of understanding what is really said and unless you have someone that understands the version spoken in Fatshan and the HK version you will lose even more.

There is no force vs force at all involved in the bong test. It is all based on force absorbing,internal force direction and force expelling. You cannot pass any of the tests if you try force vs force. It is proper internal structure.

How do you perform "receive what comes"? Moving out of the way is not receiving is it? Is that how you shake hands? When someone puts their hand out to you do you move away from or move to the side?
Another question a little off topic " punch comes from the heart" what does that mean? These are 2 basic wing chun sayings. What do they mean and how do you do them?





Edited by donchisau (04/04/08 12:31 PM)

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#389820 - 04/04/08 08:22 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Quote:

Is that how you shake hands?




Actually, yeah. But that's because I also study kali

I would never quote anything Nearing said here. Just for the record.
Anyway, if you make contact, you are receiving to some degree or the other, right? I guess that particular exercise seems to me like it omits any sort of footwork which I PERSONALLY believe is a no-no in any martial art. I argue this with other WC people all the time, but I guess I have an impossible time in being too orthodox in anything. I do see the point though and would really like to know where these exercises came from because I haven't heard of them before.

Quote:

When someone puts their hand out to you do you move away from or move to the side?




Depends. If someone fires a centerline punch at mach 5 at me, I very well may step off and forward with a pak sao cover and a fak sao to the neck or ribs. It's situational. I believe that all techniques should have multiple applications in varying ranges and they should absolutely be bi-lateral in execution. I think alot of WC training would benefit from adopting these principles.

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#389821 - 04/06/08 04:37 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
donchisau Offline
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Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73

I have never seen anyone shake hands by backing away from the offered hand. Makes you unique.

You are either misreading my posts or I am not being clear.
They are not an exercise. They are basic skill tests. If you cant pass them standing then you have no ability to use the skill while moving. You first must have developed the basic skill before you can learn how to fight the way wing chun was designed.

You miss the point on bong sau. You said bong sau doesn't stay. Sure but does anything stay? Tan doesn't, stay Gaun doesn't stay, a punch doesn't stay nothing stays. My point was that you have lost a great deal in the translation or lack there of. You can not learn the ssytem the way it was intended and designed if you don't have the correct translations.

What is bong designed to do? Why do you bother with bong lap drills and poon sau rolling? What is bong being trained for? It is meant to receive energy. The bong tests simply measure your ability to receive and handle energy. If you can't do it standing with a friend then you won't be able to do it in a fight. To fight with wing chun you must have basic wing chun skills. If you can't pass these tests you don't have basic skills.
The tests and their variations are past of all wing chun families. Including Yip Man. There are reasons that many have dropped the tests. Primary being that so many focused on the external shapes and not the internal skills.

Wing Chun does not rely on speed and strength. There is always someone faster and external attributes decline with age. Wing Chun combat is close the gap, find the bridge, cross the bridge and stay there. Not move back across the bridge. You are to control the other persons center of gravity and control it. You get up their shirt and stay there. If you have the proper structure you can do this against much larger and stronger opponents without the proper structure you can't

Shifting is not meant to be an Ole move. Shifting allows you to maintain close contact while changing to a favorable angle for attack. The dummy makes a point of teaching this.

Yes wing chun footwork is meant to be very quick and nimble

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#389822 - 04/07/08 12:32 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Ok, I wasn't talking about backing away from the hand, but moving it or myself to the side. And I was kind of kidding.

Also, you still didn't answer my question. I see you writing alot about what 'is' and what 'isn't' in wing chun training progression, but you still didn't source it so I have to take it with the same grain of salt that I take MA advice from anyone.
Sorry.
With all due respect, I have noticed that WC students more than any other claim to know 'secrets'.
There are no secrets.
If you think there are, screw WC - you've missed the point of MA's and FIGHTING altogether.
I don't mean any disrespect, but taking what you're saying verbatim is really difficult when it gets cryptic and dodges the point.
Application is the only way to verify the truth - from what I understand it's an old buddhist saying. I think that translates just fine universally.

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#389823 - 04/07/08 11:15 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
donchisau Offline
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Posts: 73
Next examine the punching test.
It trains basic timing and power projection. Hitting sand bags all day won't mean a thing if you can't deliver the power at the right moment. Punch to soon and no power delivered,punch to late and punch is smothered.
When the punch is delivered are you the puncher rocked backwards or out of your stance? if so then you are not delivering all your power into the other person the energy of your punch is coming back into you and throwing you off balance. Power is not delivered from an off balance position.

Do I know secrets Yes in so much as I have never taken any teachers word for anything. Everything must make sense. 1+1= 2. The student must be open minded enough to think for themselves. So I have studied with many teachers.
I am a senior certified instructor under the VTAA. Among others I have studied with Sam Kwok ,Yip Ching ,Yip Chun, Tsui Sheung Ting, Hawkins Cheung in the Yip Man line. I have also learned the Kwai family wing chun which comes from Leung Jan student Lo Kwai. I have had other teachers as well as you know and have had many friendly exchanges with students from many other wing chun families both Yip Man and mainland versions including a student/friend of Yip Bo Ching, Yip Mans top student until his death in 1969.

If you don't want to accept what I have to say thats fine. Your a nice guy so thought I would put you and others reading on the right track. It's up to every person to follow what ever track they want.

It bothers when people say wing chun doesn't work has poor power etc when through no fault of their own they have never seen or been taught the full system.

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#389824 - 04/07/08 11:28 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Quote:

It bothers when people say wing chun doesn't work has poor power etc when through no fault of their own they have never seen or been taught the full system.




Well, I certainly agree with that.
Again I apologize for any skepticism - I've just heard a lot of empty claims and wild theories throughout my experience with WC and it's hard to tell who's who sometimes. I trust my sifu's teaching, but not just because he's sifu. It has more to do with me personally than that. I also haven't met Ip Ching sigung in person, but most of the others have and when I watch the video they bring back I can see clearly where our kung fu comes from.
We're on the same page, I just wanted to know where these tests were created.

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#389825 - 04/07/08 11:30 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
donchisau Offline
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As for being cryptic I don't think I am being so but there is only so much that can be explained over the net and only so much time I have to reply on forums.
Application is a good way to test. Go to CFC on clark if its still there or walk into a boxing gym and ask to spar. Tell them you do wing chun and want to test it out. You should have no trouble testing your stuff out. Or go to the gracie school on lasalle and division I think. I know they will be happy to play with you. That's how I learned wing chun. I challenged people all over Chicago I used to run adds in the Reader and Suntimes looking for sparring partners and I found them and often had sparing matches that turned real. So if you really want to test your wing chun in application that's how to do it. You have my best wishes .

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#389826 - 04/08/08 06:25 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
Triddle Offline
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Quote:

When the punch is delivered are you the puncher rocked backwards or out of your stance? if so then you are not delivering all your power into the other person the energy of your punch is coming back into you and throwing you off balance. Power is not delivered from an off balance position.




I just have to point this out...
When you punch someone an equal force will be distrubted on you as them. This is not energy being wasted 'coming back in to you' this is simply the way the physical world works, there is no way to overcome this. This is one of the very basics of mechanics. To simplify newton's third law "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction". It is this that makes such an action as jumping possible, though you are pushing down on the earth, the earth pushes back on you with the same force, accelerating you upwards. It is also the reason punching a wall hurts. This law deals with force, as opposed to energy or power (as you mentioned), but it does directly correlate to both energy and power meaning that your energy and power will never 'come back into you' but instead power and energy equal to that which is delivered will always be exerted against you.

If when you said energy you were not infact refering to physical energy, and instead refering to mystical energy, I appologise for the misunderstanding.

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#389827 - 04/08/08 09:12 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: Triddle]
donchisau Offline
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Triddle you are 100% correct about the energy. In my attempt to keep things simple I skipped an important point. The goal is to send energy into the other person while sending the energy that comes back into you down to the ground. The proper structure which should be trained via the basic stance trains energy path into the ground. The reason you go back and lose balance is because the alignment of the skeleton is not correct.
A kicking test tests the same thing. You kick a brick wall or thick tree full power and your support leg should hold it's stance.The power line is tree through kicking leg through support leg into the ground.

I try to avoid to much energy talk on forums since it can be mistaken for mystical something. Wing chun is based on dealing with energy,the physical kind hence all the SLT tests I mentioned all test the ability to create and maintain the proper physical structure that allows energy to flow into and out of the ground, sink ,spit,float,swallow etc is all based on handling incoming and outgoing energy

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#389828 - 04/08/08 12:31 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: JKogas]
Kimo2007 Offline
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Quote:

As I was awakening to more of a western martial arts slant




Awakening to? Or do you mean blinded by?

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#389829 - 04/08/08 01:47 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
cxt Offline
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donchisau

Well I certainly appreciate that your taking the time to put us poor benighted souls "on the right track" as you put it:

"....so I thought I would put you and others reading on the right track

Yep, for my money nothing makes people more open and willing to exchange information like an overt stated postion that everyone but you is a knucklehead in deep need of your guidence.

BTW, if your kicking a "thick tree or...brick wall" its has little to do with your stance and mostly everything to do with how hard your hitting it that make you stand or fall.
Its simple physics--the solid mass of the wall beats the mass of a human being--you kick it really hard-you will lose, regardless of how good your stance might be.

You hit really hard and something is likely to give...probably you.


Edited by cxt (04/08/08 01:58 PM)
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#389830 - 04/09/08 02:35 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: cxt]
donchisau Offline
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LoL I guess I do sound a bit full of myself. Didn't read it that way. Oh well.

At the same time people do need to have the opportunity to find the right track if they have an open mind. I realize there are far to many close minded folks involved in blind "sifu love and devotion" and will never examine or question what they are taught but will merely believe what ever they are told. That's a shame but a fact of martial arts life.

As for kicking a tree or a wall. If anyone has basic structure they should be able to kick concrete walls or large tree's with either a front or side kick with FULL POWER and your support leg should not move and your upper body should not move and you should easily be able to hold your balance. This is the point of 1 leg SLT training after all.

The tests I have listed point they way. If people can pass them then all is good if not they need to examine what they are being taught.

And thats the bottom line cause Stone Cold Don said so!

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#389831 - 04/09/08 04:12 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
Neko456 Offline
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Posts: 3260
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Donchisau - I was wondering when you were coming back. Sometimes people confuse confidence or know how for bragging, but really it's just believing in what you are doing.

Though I do have some problems with the inner and outer gate punch being overpowered by full powered punches.

I the structure principle you speak of is soild, the ground does absorb energy if you are rooted.

I do believe and have seen that (as Jokgas and others have stated) WC does depend on alot of things going your way.

I remember this muscular WC Sifu 5'7 160lbs (I'm 6" taller and 65 muscular lbs heavier) while testing his Gung fu he did well against others Instructors but there were a couple guys that had his number. We trained together and we would help each other out. Now if we exchanged punches on a go he could perform the cutting block/punch move solidly but could not do it against his rival a solid muscular 5'7 190lb guy who used footwork and timing when punching. Rolled the WC guy (Mr. Lemons) like he was bowling. I suggested side stepping and using his feet and showed him how, and things were different after. So though Wing Chun a hand style you can't always punch with a puncher.

Some Wcer's state they avoid the cutting move because of that, Sifu Lemon believe in it bc his Sifu did.


Edited by Neko456 (04/09/08 04:13 PM)
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#389832 - 04/09/08 05:41 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
cxt Offline
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Don

Sorry Don, that is simply not true--its simple physics--a person has no-where near the mass, density and stabilty of a brick wall or a thick tree---you kick one with "full power" and your probably going to break something--and it ain't going to the brick wall.

And I have to disagree that the "point...of one 1 leg STL training" is to be able to kick brick walls and thick trees.

This...ahm.....test....is both foolish, quite possibly injurious and IMO of quite limited value--even you don't beark something-it only meausres a relativly static application.....not a active use.

Tell you what, you go out and kick a brick wall with your FULL POWER--then post the tape so we can see for ourselves how good you are, how hard you can really hit and how the body responds to such abuse.

Let me know when you have it posted.
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I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#389833 - 04/09/08 06:25 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: Neko456]
donchisau Offline
Member

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Posts: 73

Neko you have hit on the hard part how to apply and adapt wing chun. There are no hard and fast rules for this unfortunately. My point of the thread you also hit on before.
First you need the complete wing chun internal structure then you have to learn how to apply it.



Since everyone is different, stronger,faster,smarter,better shape etc everyone needs to find their own answers a teacher or coach can only guide and give suggestions.

The cutting punch depends on the proper structure to work on everyone equally.. Punches should be done in a fashion that complements the skeletal structure not in opposition to it. For example most wing chunners throw punches in a piston like fashion i.e. the way many do the chain punch. However our joints are not piston joints. They are closer to ball and socket joints in general. If the bones remain firmly joined at the joint they are much more powerful than if they separate or pull out of the joint. Typical punching actually pulls the joints apart hence the rise in the shoulder and so many folks with elbow problems. This in turn has lead to modification of the punch for example some saying never straighten the arms or some pulling the shoulder back as they extend the punch to try to keep the arm set in the shoulder.
Side stepping and mobility is an excellent answer. To bad more folks don't use it.

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#389834 - 04/09/08 06:41 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: cxt]
donchisau Offline
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Lol I get it now CXT if you can't do it nobody can and it can't be done.

As I said in my post I realize that there are those that are fanatics and believe that only they know the one true way of wing chun and can not open their minds to other methods. I see you are one of those. There is no point in posting anything because you can never be satisfied.

Funny neither I nor anyone I have taught and I have been teaching for 10 years have ever suffered any injury from kicking solid walls or trees. If you have the proper structure the energy goes through you into the ground.

Since you don't have the structure and can't pass even the basic SLT tests you would rather find away around it than to face your lack of ability and knowledge.

If you can't do something static you will never be able to do it while active.

You post a vid of you passing the basic SLT structure tests and then maybe I will have a vid posted from my next seminar in Florida in May.

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#389835 - 04/09/08 10:19 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
cxt Offline
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don

Then it should be easy to provide the requested tape of your doing so.
One FULL POWER kick into a thick tree or a brick wall by a single student or yourself in a "10 year" period seems like a simple request.

You could do it yourself in about 10 minutes.

You want me to post a vid of somebody doing your foolish test and breaking their bones?????
Yeah, going to pass on that.....please recall YOUR the guy that says you can essentially ignore the laws of physics....I'M the guy who thinks your a blowhard with a "sifu complex."

Just so we are both clear on our respective roles

If anybody needs addtl evidnce look at the words choice you employ above...you don't know me, have never met me, don't know anything about my training....yet because I don't belive in dangerous training practices and that you can ignore the laws of physics.....you ASSUME that I can't do "X."
Which you have no earthly possibly means of knowing...your asserting a litteral impossiblity.

Unless "remote viewing" or astral projection is among your claimed powers.

BTW, you really don't deal well with people that question your pronuncements do you.....must be tough when people don't drink the Kool-Aid huh?

Like I said simply kick a brick wall with FULL POWER and post the vid....that way we can determine of its all that impressive for ourselves.

Pretty simple request.....one you either can't or won't do....which speaks volumes to your sincerty...or the lack there-of.

We don't advocate dangerous training around here---what your suggesting is potentially dangerous....you and your students want to do it?
Fine by me, your choices and your training.
Really none of my busines if you folks are happy risking serious injury.

But please don't promote such risky practices around here---as a rule we are "saftey first" kinda of folks.


Edited by cxt (04/09/08 10:28 PM)

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#389836 - 04/10/08 02:46 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: cxt]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Don said:
" Side stepping and mobility is an excellent answer. To bad more folks don't use it"

I think that's what I was talking about before when I said 'yes' to if I move away or to the side when moved in on. The yes would be to 'the side' much more than 'away', but away happens in situations where your arms are being stuffed into your abs. Of course, away and to the side is usually my reaction in that situation (ie kwun sao to escape and counter attack).

CXT - I'm not advocating unsafe practices, but you can actually kick walls and trees without hurting yourself. It's kind of like punching a wall bag - release the energy into the solid object. I guess a more viable comparison would be hitting a wooden dummy or makiwara, which people do all the time. I'm pretty sure you could break your leg sending CHAMBERED kicks at a wall, but the WC kicks allow for a higher limb survival value by the nature of their mechanics. I'm not saying Don has super powers, but dude - you can kick a wall and walk away from it.
Anyway though, there really isn't any value in being able to kick a wall full on if you can't do it to a faster, fleshier, muscleier type of target. That much is true for sure.

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#389837 - 04/10/08 06:46 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JKogas Offline
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Lol @ "powers". The internet gets really goofy sometimes. Particularly martial arts forums.

Sheesh. You'd think that if Dana White (the new Don King) could find the worlds deadliest wing chun master, he'd sign his ass in New York minute. But he hasn't. Ever wonder why?

Probably because wing chun is only for the STREET!

-John

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#389838 - 04/10/08 08:06 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
Ed_Morris Offline
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Quote:

If you can't do something static you will never be able to do it while active.



There is a fallacy attached to that line of thinking. It makes a student strive for static perfection while neglecting the active training.

I believe active drills hone useable skill, and the static ones suppliment it - not the other way around. From day one should be 80% active 20% static.

a couple of dry solo runs to get the gross motor mechanics of a drill, then a little time with scripted low-resistance 2-person drills, then lots of time with non-scripted 2-person drills increacing in resistance according to how much the student is ready for.


people watch too many movies where they show a master teaching how to break a block of wood with a 1" punch - assuming honing of that skill will translate to useage. it doesn't.

Animals growing up in the wild don't solo-train, they quickly obtain the gross motor skill then play-fight to gain survival skill. Why don't they solo-train? I think because survival is the real deal for them, not an esoteric theory with a low-chance probability as a passtime.


but if the goal is getting the body mechanics of an art to perfection, and training is towards a look-and-feel ideal, - then yes, pefecting the solo mechanics is the best way to go; since lots of 2-person training will make someone's art look 'sloppy'....and then before you know it, your Wing Chun will look like boxing and wrestling. couldn't have that. lol

...but I agree with he notion that without theory and strive for ideal, there is no art....and I personally train mostly for the art, not for survival. training for survival nowadays would lead one to the shooting range as oppossed to the mats.


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#389839 - 04/10/08 08:37 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

LoL I guess I do sound a bit full of myself.
And thats the bottom line cause Stone Cold Don said so!




Hi.

I think a lot will depend on the condition and the make up of the wall. I dont tend to kick walls to often. Very heavy bag will suffice.
Even so regardless what is used the energy has to go somewhere. At the worse scenario (using a wall) it will go straight back and the weakest part on a human are the joints.


If you say you know how wing chun should be trained then ok.
Would there be a chance of you putting something on video?
Or are there any already on you tube or something?
It would be a lot easier to see. Or pm one?

Jude

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#389840 - 04/10/08 10:00 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
cxt Offline
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Shi

Yeah, you can hit stuff like that without injury....but NOT in context with what he is describing ie "FULL POWER" stikes to a brick wall that not only don't get you hurt but don't really move you either.

My guess is that its either not really "full power" or he is not really understanding where the force is going--cause its going somewhere.

If he had said something like:

"You know, with proper training and conditioning you can a brick wall pretty hard without injury"

I'd have said "probably not a good idea, but ok."

But that is neither what he said nor how he framed the discussion.

Plus like I said its a static drill....we have professional fighters breaking their hands in active streetfights--even some "name" guys...yet Don expects a non-pro student to be able to hit a brick wall with FULL POWER and not get hurt.

Does not sound like a good idea to me....nor all that valuable a method of training.


Edited by cxt (04/10/08 10:12 AM)

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#389841 - 04/10/08 10:39 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: cxt]
Tashigae Offline
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Actually, I think it all depends on what you mean by "full power".

If you mean a full-powered penetrating strike (karate style) with no control at all, I find it difficult to believe that one might reach such mastery as not to get ANY of that power bouncing back in your body and dissipating there with nasty results - even if you can get some of it to be redirected into the ground.

However, I know for a fact that it's possible to deliver a pretty powerful but highly controlled strike and pull it back so fast that the energy delivered isn't given a chance to bounce back into the weapon used, so that it just dissipates itself entirely inside the target and causes all its damage there (which wouldn't be much in the case of a brick wall, but that's not the point). Of course, the less "give" in the target, the harder to pull off this neat little feat. It definitely wouldn't be easy on a solid wall, but not impossible either, I reckon.

I've been experimenting on this principle using a hammer, but I definitely don't trust my ability to produce that phenomenon with consistency enough yet to try it with natural weapons (my piano and flutes still need some of those sometimes, and I'd hate to deprive them of company... ).
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#389842 - 04/10/08 11:18 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: Tashigae]
Neko456 Offline
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I agree or you can kick or punch a wall or tree with a solid blow planting your stance and there is no ill effect if you built that sort of structure.

But the key words are FULL POWERED with wreckless abandon, I've never tried that so I couldn't say odds are CXT is right its hard to fight mother nature/laws of physics.

But a soild controlled powered side kick or strike been there done that when I was younger. Wouldn't do it now because it proves nothing that hitting a heavy bag would prove, I got more responcibilty and I'm older/fragile.
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#389843 - 04/10/08 12:43 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: JKogas]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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"Lol @ "powers". The internet gets really goofy sometimes. Particularly martial arts forums."

Man, it has nothing to do with 'powers'. Different set of words that means the same thing as whatever jargon you speak.
Come off it.

And the UFC is a creepy 'boy's club' anyway.

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#389844 - 04/10/08 12:46 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: cxt]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Good point CXT. I will stick to kicking only cement walls and disiduous trees from now on.

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#389845 - 04/10/08 01:07 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Good point CXT. I will stick to kicking only cement walls and disiduous trees from now on.


disiduous trees = sheds its leaves in winter?.

So would that be just in the winter then?


Speaking of large trees. Certain Okinawans do tend to use them for bare hand/ forearm/ shoulder conditioning. The trees do seem to have a fair amount of give.
Or put it another way. The tree moves with the strikes while remaining rooted. Might be something to do with the strikers ability and physical conditioning as well me thinks, I think seen as this conversation is about wing chun of which I know nothing about other than didint it start life as white crane? I believe white crane was incorperated in to okinwan karate which in turn was where Japanese karate began life so I think it is still on topic.

Quote:


Man, it has nothing to do with 'powers'. Different set of words that means the same thing as whatever jargon you speak.
Come off it.




I might have missed that one???

Jude




Edited by jude33 (04/10/08 01:35 PM)

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#389846 - 04/10/08 05:15 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: jude33]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Sorry Jude, I wasn't being serious. Par for the course with this thread

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#389847 - 04/10/08 06:15 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
jude33 Offline
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Quote:

Sorry Jude, I wasn't being serious. Par for the course with this thread




No need to be sorry as such. People make claims of making something work. I would realy like to see that happen if they have. Good luck to them. But observation of what they do is all I have to go on. No disrespect to the guy but if he is reading this I realy hope you have made it work.

The problem as he knows is observation is a good form of proof. If he is reading this then any chance of you putting it on video?


Jude

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#389848 - 04/10/08 07:57 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: jude33]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73

Nice to see so much discussion.

This may seem a bit rude but it is clear I must be very direct.

1. For some --- What part of "TESTS" is not clear?

I did not say training methods,daily exercise,spend all class every class standing and do only these things etc ,etc. A Test is just that a test something done once in awhile to see how your training is coming along .

2 CXT what part of " power goes into the ground" do you not understand? I can not be any clearer if you have the proper structure than the power goes from your kicking leg back through the pelvic girdle down through your support leg into the ground. This is basic wing chun kicking. I am not talking about anything else other than wing chun and wing chun methods

3. Wing chun is designed to enable weaker slower people to handle and defeat bigger stronger faster people. One thing needed to accomplish this is the ability to utilize the entire body for all actions and not rely on localized muscle.

4. The key thing in all this is the proper use and control of the hip/waist area. Chinese would say the Kwa. I am avoiding talking about internal training to keep things as simple as I can.

5. Wing Chun trains rooting. This is in essence learning how to use the ground for power.

6. To bring power up from the ground or to send energy into the ground so you can maintain your balance and structure requires the proper training and use of the hips and waist. That is the purpose of the tests. To determine if you have the ability to use the pelvic girdle and waist for these purposes.

7. For full power one needs to use the whole body and make the use of the body into a reflex like action so it is done without thought. Just a natural function.

8. The punch in wing chun comes from the heart. This means it comes from the chest. with out proper structure you will not have the ability to use the chest back and rest of body in the intended fashion.

9. originally those learning wing chun spent 2 to 3 years at the SLT level. This was the approximate amount of time needed to develop the needed structure. The rest of the system would then follow quickly.

10. If one cannot pass the tests then one does not have the required internal structure and training to apply wing chun in the manner it was intended

11. Once some one has studied wing chun it is fairly easy to teach them how to develop the proper structure and teach them the training exercises that will build it. These are not the tests.

12. There are separate training methods to develop the internal structure and the use of the hips, waist, spine,chest, tendons and skeleton.

13. These exercises are contained within the forms. For example if done with proper breathing,structure and Yi the first section of the first form is a tendon changing exercise.

14. Videos and proof. There is nothing I have to prove to anyone. There are those that know and understand what I am talking about they need know proof. As for others I give 3 to 4 seminars a year around the world you are more than welcome to come. I don't sell vids and don't put any up on youtube. The Florida seminar may cover some of these tests. I usually do some of them as a demo/parlor trick like the zero punch just because some people like seeing these things. If some one does video tape the demos I will ask them post it. I do not allow the actual breakdown and training methods to be recorded. Notes are encouraged.


Edited by donchisau (04/10/08 08:02 PM)

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#389849 - 04/10/08 08:33 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
ShikataGaNai Offline
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Also, no matter WHAT you put on video as 'proof' there will always be detractors and smack-talkers.
In a lot of ways the internet is the worst thing that ever happened to martial arts because you get so many critics putting down training that they don't even understand.

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#389850 - 04/10/08 09:15 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
jude33 Offline
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Might be that happens but It isnt realy where my interests lie. I am in the UK so there wont be much of a chance of seminars. If someone does record any of the events then if poss either could you pm the video or let me know where its posted.

Jude

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#389851 - 04/10/08 10:50 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
cxt Offline
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Loc: USA
don

So essentially, once again, somebody has allowed the anonymity of the net to make unsupported claims with nary a bit of proof....and when challanged to produce simple proofs they become insulting and snide.

Sad but in no way unexpected.

I really don't care how "its designed" that is the realm of what is essentially "paper" and what I'm concerned about is "reality."
And in reality you really can't go around hitting brick walls with what you claim is FULL POWER and not risk injury--perhaps serious injury.

I asked for a simple vid of what you claim is a common feat with your students--over a 10 year period--yet instead of being able to present it you:

A-Asserted that you somehow knew my skills and where I lacked abilty...a neat trick for someone that has never so much as laid eyes on me, let alone trained with me.

B-Your "power goes into the ground" would indicate to me a lack of grasp of simple physics (yeah it does--sort of--but its considerably more complex than that) which given your infatuation with potential dangerous "testing" methods---such as hitting brick walls with FULL POWER might be a real problem......for people you...ahm..."advise" I guess would be the term.

I also remind you that I entered this discusion at the point where you were pontificating about how everyone here was bascially in need of your vast wisdom and guidence.

The assumption that you posses greater knowloge than anyone whom might be reading is probably not the best one to be makeing....you would be surprised at whom lurks around here....I was.
Also a bad idea IMO to make claims that one either can't or won't support on a very public forum.

Up to you of course.........but I find that when simple mis-statements are made a simple "oops..I kinda got carried away and mispoke" work far better than spin.

People can forgive and forget the mistakes...we do after all, all make them---the spin however carries a distinct oder which is hard to wash off.


Edited by cxt (04/10/08 10:56 PM)
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#389852 - 04/11/08 12:36 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: cxt]
BrianS Offline
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Good job cxt, you are right on track with this guy.

I suppose we need to pay for a seminar to witness the devastating power of wing chun!!!

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#389853 - 04/11/08 12:07 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: jude33]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73

Jude if you are in England than you don't need me at all. There are 2 students of Yip Mans Foshan student Lun Gai over there and they can teach you. They do things a bit differently than I do but come to the same place also there are some schools connected to Chi Sim Weng Chun there as well. They can also teach you. You may have to drive a few hours but it is worth it.

Others that know and do what I do have posted videos on the net and most folks don't understand what they are seeing so I don't think a short clip will accomplish much.

Look at how someone uses their hip area that tells you everything you need to know about their skill level. What is the position of the hip in relation to the spine? Do the hips move and float or are they locked in place?

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#389854 - 04/11/08 12:53 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
cxt Offline
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Posts: 5811
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don

"most folks don't understand what they are seeing"

Well its a good thing "most folks" have you around to explain it to them isn't it.
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#389855 - 04/11/08 04:22 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: cxt]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73



Well its a good thing "most folks" have you around to explain it to them isn't it.





LOL no doubt about it very lucky!

You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink.

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#389856 - 04/11/08 08:21 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
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Loc: Northwest Arkansas

Yes, but can you strike the horse full power with a WC sidekick?
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#389857 - 04/11/08 10:13 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
cxt Offline
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don

Again, thank you for illustrating my point about where your "really" coming from so neatly.
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I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#389858 - 04/12/08 10:53 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: BrianS]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Quote:


Yes, but can you strike the horse full power with a WC sidekick?




Wrong question youngling. You should ask Why can't you?

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#389859 - 04/12/08 11:15 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: cxt]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Quote:

don

Again, thank you for illustrating my point about where your "really" coming from so neatly.




No CXT I should thank you for proving their are those who post on forums only to bask in their own ignorance by believing that if they don't know it or can't do it it must not be possible.

I post to share information you post to deny it's existence.

Everyone knows in martial arts they only only proof is in the physical seeing ,feeling and doing not internet mouth boxing. You of course ignore the chance to see for yourself better to deny than to be proved wrong.

Yes, you are right I and hundreds of years of CMA development are wrong. Chinese and western medical knowledge are wrong Orthopedic surgeons are wrong. Chiropractors are wrong. You though through your vast knowledge of what exactly are right.

You have offered the perfect exhibit of why Yip Man said he only liked to teach intelligent people. The intelligent examine, study and explore before coming to a conclusion. Not you. You have a decision first and then only look for that which supports your position.

All one has to do is look at how to cherry picked parts of my posts to see the validity of what I have said.

No doubt you also believe the world is 6000 years old and the Flintstones is a documentary.

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#389860 - 04/12/08 12:10 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73

Further note. You also have proved my point about people not being able to look at videos and understand what they are seeing. All one has to do is look at a tape of how karate or take your dough kicks compared to how wing chun kicks and the difference in use of the bone structure is clear.

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#389861 - 04/12/08 12:44 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
cxt Offline
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Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
don

I'd love to "examine and explore" as you put it....problem is that I only have your drumbeating insistance that you know what your talking about.....I have nothing but your words to "examine."

I have asked you to post a vid so I/we can "examine" that...but you have refused--multiple times.

I again refer to you to how you speak to everyone....or rather how you arrogantly pontificate to everyone that so much as questions you

Lets just look at a few of the most recent:

"bask in their own ignorance"

"you ignore the chance to see for yourself better"

"No doubt you also belive that the world is 6000 years old and the Flintstone is a documentay."

See, disagreement with you means I'm stupid......anyone whom disagrees with don MUST be less than smart......smart people would agree with don....and you wonder why people think you arrogant and a blowhard?

When a person points out that hitting brick walls with FULL POWER is probably not a good idea either for being risky and not really telling you much is attacked in such an ad homonium fashion...well it speaks volumes as to the childish mindset and worldview of the attacker......that would BTW be "you" don.

Plus, I have never so much as mentioend "western medicine" or "orthopedic surgeons" or "chiropractors."

You have behaved very poorly here don.......I seriously doubt that you have much of a clue about which you speak....mainly because people that ARE skilled and informed seldem feel such a knee-jerk need to belittle people and speak down to them as you have.

But even if your do...still would not wish to study or learn from such a person....your attitude and arrogance might rub off on me..taint me.

Many ways to learn how to fight...many teachers, I'd rather learn from someone with just a little bit of decency in how he or she treats others.

I have come to expect just a little bit more in one who claims to be a teacher than what you have demonstated.

If your willing to be such a horse arse on-line...then I pity and worry for your actual students..heaven help one of them who might dare to question the "Great and Powerful OZ"....err....a...I mean..."don".



Edited by cxt (04/12/08 12:50 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#389862 - 04/12/08 04:28 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:


Further note. You also have proved my point about people not being able to look at videos and understand what they are seeing.








Your a bit wrong on that one. Observation skills have to be trained. Don. So while posting a video wouldnt perhaps explain everything it would show somethings.
I find videos are a good method for a person to check technique.


Quote:


No CXT I should thank you for proving their are those who post on forums only to bask in their own ignorance by believing that if they don't know it or can't do it it must not be possible.






What isnt possable? There is plenty I know nothing about.
Do you mean hard kicking technique? Mine are ok. Like everything else I would prefer them to improve.
So could you post something that might improve them?.

Quote:



All one has to do is look at a tape of how karate or take your dough kicks compared to how wing chun kicks and the difference in use of the bone structure is clear.




Which kick and can you explain in more detail?
I am not going to ramble on and defend kicking techniques because some were adjusted for different tasks.
Techniques adjusted for certain tag sports dont always have what I want.

I think you might have missed out a few vital elements in the bone structure statement.

Bones done move alone, they need something to move them.
Even picking them up and throwing then requires some form of external force. Weak external force might mean a weak kick (if some of the laws of physics arent applicable?) .



Don?

And a kick like a punch isnt always going to land a hundred percent how it should

So what exactly are you meaning with bone structure ?

This is where videos come into play. Show what you think is a wrong kick and then show what you think is correct.

Otherwise what is the point of posting all this stuff?

If you have made wing chun work fine. Good man!!. But Posting comments the way you are leads nowhere. For all I know you could be a fake? Not saying you are but how do I know?

Which kick would be a good place to start?.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/12/08 04:36 PM)

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#389863 - 04/12/08 05:04 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjGCoTHsKzw&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH13kYFzfFk&NR=1



Here is more than likely not to good of an example seen as it is sport orientated but any way its there. The wing chun guy does seem to take a lot of thigh kicks. Don where would you see your technique of using the correct kicking technique helping any of these poor guys?

Or in again sport against this guy below? He is good . and he posts educational videos, as do some of his students etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hopqMm14XMw&feature=related

One thing that occurs to me is if a person want to study effective anything then study the guys who use it for real.
Ok the videos are sport. But I find for part of the teachings to be used in self defence some of what they are doing has its uses.

Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/12/08 05:15 PM)

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#389864 - 04/13/08 03:37 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Quote:

Quote:


Yes, but can you strike the horse full power with a WC sidekick?




Wrong question youngling. You should ask Why can't you?




I'm 34 and not the one making false claims in a condescending manner on an internet forum,you are, old fart.

"Have you ever seen Wing Chun." That's your topic, then you go on to make claims that YOU won't back up.
I'd like to see WC in the way you describe. I'm sure it's completely awesome,but until you put up...shut up.
_________________________
The2nd ammendment, it makes all the others possible. <///<




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#389865 - 04/18/08 04:48 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: jude33]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Jude - You are making an assumption that just because some one tries to apply something it means they actually know what they are doing. Everywhere you go in life there are folks in every profession who don't have a clue hence malpractice insurance etc.

Anyone that competes deserves respect.

Wing Chun has an instruction book of sorts. The Kuen Kuit ot fist sayings. They give direction on how to apply the concepts.

For kicking first balance is the most important thing . You never kick if off balance. Never kick if you might lose your balance.
Never kick unless the opponents hands are occupied.
Never kick above the waist.
Use chum sum gur after contact is made. This is a method of using the hips.
A kick is a step and a step is a kick.
In wing chun you sink into the support leg. It never straightens as the kick extends.

Do you see the wing chun people in the vids doing these things?
In addition there are 3 basic steps ,circle,triangle and arrow. Are these things being done?
Wing chun trains simultaneous use of both and hands and at advanced stages both hands and a leg at the same instant. Is this what they are doing?
Footwork is to be fast and nimble. Is the footwork this way?
Front or side facing are to be done without delay. Are they quickly changing their body position?
If hand control is lost rush in like a flood. Is this what happens when they loose control of the opponents hands? Do they ever get control?
Join you opponents center of gravity. Is this done or attempted?
These are some of the basic rules for the application of
wing chun. There are many others. My point is if they are not attempting to do these things they are not doing wing chun and might as well spend their time training something else. Second people will have a hard time doing any of these things in a real situation if they do not have the proper body structure because they will not be able to hold their balance when forceful contact is made. look at how the Oyama student pushes the wing chun guy around after contact is made. Hard to kick effectively when you are getting pushed around a ring.
Hence pass the structure tests first then learn how to apply.

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#389866 - 04/18/08 05:08 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: jude33]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Jude You may be reading more into my posts or looking for more than there is intended.

Look at how wing chun using the support leg compared to taekwondo or karate. Is is different. Wing chun kicks are done from and designed for short range. Wing chun uses the hip for power in a different method.

I suppose a video is a good way to look at technique except that is not what you should be looking at with wing chun people. You need to look at how the body hips and stance are used rather than the arms. This also holds true for Tai Chi, Hsing -I and other CMA. The true skill is in the body not the techniques. In fact the best people do very little other than the basic techniques most of the time.

When I refer to bone structure I am not talking about striking.
Yes I am leaving alot out.
WC relies on the use of the skeleton and tendons. That is what I am talking about. If your skeleton is not used correctly than you will not have proper structure and will have to rely on using gross muscle strength .If you can use your skeleton properly then you do not use muscle strength expressed through muscle tension. You can remain relaxed supple and still very strong. hence wing chun does not train like hung gar. Hung gar iron wire is very different than wing chun methods for example even though the goal is the same.

You ask about which kick to start with. I don't understand the question. All wing chun kicks use the same basic principles. Do you practice wing chun or just curious about it?

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#389867 - 04/21/08 11:05 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
"Hung gar iron wire is very different than wing chun methods for example even though the goal is the same."

Pretty much my personal experience with most arts---different methods same goal more or less.


Edited by cxt (04/21/08 11:05 AM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#389868 - 04/21/08 07:56 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



You ask about which kick to start with. I don't understand the question. All wing chun kicks use the same basic principles. Do you practice wing chun or just curious about it?




Hi

I dont practice wing chun. I practice karate. The power for my kicks comes from heavy weights. I use to squat and deadlift now I use heavy leg press, leg extention and medium weights leg curl.
I also use medium weights in higher reps for circuit training.
Heavy weigths for power generation is fine but if there is something that I can incorperate in to my training that will benefit anything I do then thats good.

I watch the full contact karate guys. Their techniques and target areas change and what they do seems to be progressive.

I can only realy imagine where your coming from that is why it is easier if I can see it.

Thus the request for a video. If you have one then feel free to PM it. I wouldnt make it public. Its not my style.



Jude


Edited by jude33 (04/21/08 07:58 PM)

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#389869 - 04/21/08 11:25 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: jude33]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Hey Jude,
(love saying that )
Those were seriously some of the worst examples of wing chun ever. In fact, I'm still digging all over youtube to find good footage. I've seen some amazing fights involving WC guys, but they're not on the internet I hate to say. I know, put up or shut up - but few of us really want to pick a fight just for the sake of putting it online.
Kinda a catch-22.

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#389870 - 04/22/08 05:30 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Hey Jude,
(love saying that )
Those were seriously some of the worst examples of wing chun ever. In fact, I'm still digging all over youtube to find good footage. I've seen some amazing fights involving WC guys, but they're not on the internet I hate to say. I know, put up or shut up - but few of us really want to pick a fight just for the sake of putting it online.
Kinda a catch-22.




If someone can make something work for real then thats fine by me regardless where it comes from. I am not that much of a hard liner with the term put up or shut up so maybe keep digging.

I havent found any but I presume not everything is recorded.

Jude

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#389871 - 04/22/08 03:42 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: jude33]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Got it now Jude. I should have asked earlier. I don't have any vids of myself. Never made any. The next seminar I am doing will be at a Goju school I believe. I will see what I can do then. I only teach a few private students don't run a school or advertise so no promos for youtube.

I can compare some to that 100 kumite clip if that would help.

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#389872 - 04/24/08 10:12 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Got it now Jude. I should have asked earlier. I don't have any vids of myself. Never made any. The next seminar I am doing will be at a Goju school I believe. I will see what I can do then. I only teach a few private students don't run a school or advertise so no promos for youtube.

I can compare some to that 100 kumite clip if that would help.




Not to sure what you meant with the last statement but either way if you can manage a video it would help to explain things easier.

Jude

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#389873 - 04/25/08 04:37 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: jude33]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73

Sorry Jude what I meant was I would take my time and compare the kicking in your example to wing chun kicking if that would help.

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