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#389838 - 04/10/08 08:06 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
Ed_Morris Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 6772
Quote:

If you can't do something static you will never be able to do it while active.



There is a fallacy attached to that line of thinking. It makes a student strive for static perfection while neglecting the active training.

I believe active drills hone useable skill, and the static ones suppliment it - not the other way around. From day one should be 80% active 20% static.

a couple of dry solo runs to get the gross motor mechanics of a drill, then a little time with scripted low-resistance 2-person drills, then lots of time with non-scripted 2-person drills increacing in resistance according to how much the student is ready for.


people watch too many movies where they show a master teaching how to break a block of wood with a 1" punch - assuming honing of that skill will translate to useage. it doesn't.

Animals growing up in the wild don't solo-train, they quickly obtain the gross motor skill then play-fight to gain survival skill. Why don't they solo-train? I think because survival is the real deal for them, not an esoteric theory with a low-chance probability as a passtime.


but if the goal is getting the body mechanics of an art to perfection, and training is towards a look-and-feel ideal, - then yes, pefecting the solo mechanics is the best way to go; since lots of 2-person training will make someone's art look 'sloppy'....and then before you know it, your Wing Chun will look like boxing and wrestling. couldn't have that. lol

...but I agree with he notion that without theory and strive for ideal, there is no art....and I personally train mostly for the art, not for survival. training for survival nowadays would lead one to the shooting range as oppossed to the mats.


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#389839 - 04/10/08 08:37 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

LoL I guess I do sound a bit full of myself.
And thats the bottom line cause Stone Cold Don said so!




Hi.

I think a lot will depend on the condition and the make up of the wall. I dont tend to kick walls to often. Very heavy bag will suffice.
Even so regardless what is used the energy has to go somewhere. At the worse scenario (using a wall) it will go straight back and the weakest part on a human are the joints.


If you say you know how wing chun should be trained then ok.
Would there be a chance of you putting something on video?
Or are there any already on you tube or something?
It would be a lot easier to see. Or pm one?

Jude

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#389840 - 04/10/08 10:00 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA
Shi

Yeah, you can hit stuff like that without injury....but NOT in context with what he is describing ie "FULL POWER" stikes to a brick wall that not only don't get you hurt but don't really move you either.

My guess is that its either not really "full power" or he is not really understanding where the force is going--cause its going somewhere.

If he had said something like:

"You know, with proper training and conditioning you can a brick wall pretty hard without injury"

I'd have said "probably not a good idea, but ok."

But that is neither what he said nor how he framed the discussion.

Plus like I said its a static drill....we have professional fighters breaking their hands in active streetfights--even some "name" guys...yet Don expects a non-pro student to be able to hit a brick wall with FULL POWER and not get hurt.

Does not sound like a good idea to me....nor all that valuable a method of training.


Edited by cxt (04/10/08 10:12 AM)

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#389841 - 04/10/08 10:39 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: cxt]
Tashigae Offline
Mister Bendy

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 690
Loc: Samarobriva, Gallia
Actually, I think it all depends on what you mean by "full power".

If you mean a full-powered penetrating strike (karate style) with no control at all, I find it difficult to believe that one might reach such mastery as not to get ANY of that power bouncing back in your body and dissipating there with nasty results - even if you can get some of it to be redirected into the ground.

However, I know for a fact that it's possible to deliver a pretty powerful but highly controlled strike and pull it back so fast that the energy delivered isn't given a chance to bounce back into the weapon used, so that it just dissipates itself entirely inside the target and causes all its damage there (which wouldn't be much in the case of a brick wall, but that's not the point). Of course, the less "give" in the target, the harder to pull off this neat little feat. It definitely wouldn't be easy on a solid wall, but not impossible either, I reckon.

I've been experimenting on this principle using a hammer, but I definitely don't trust my ability to produce that phenomenon with consistency enough yet to try it with natural weapons (my piano and flutes still need some of those sometimes, and I'd hate to deprive them of company... ).
_________________________
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#389842 - 04/10/08 11:18 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: Tashigae]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree or you can kick or punch a wall or tree with a solid blow planting your stance and there is no ill effect if you built that sort of structure.

But the key words are FULL POWERED with wreckless abandon, I've never tried that so I couldn't say odds are CXT is right its hard to fight mother nature/laws of physics.

But a soild controlled powered side kick or strike been there done that when I was younger. Wouldn't do it now because it proves nothing that hitting a heavy bag would prove, I got more responcibilty and I'm older/fragile.
_________________________
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#389843 - 04/10/08 12:43 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: JKogas]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
"Lol @ "powers". The internet gets really goofy sometimes. Particularly martial arts forums."

Man, it has nothing to do with 'powers'. Different set of words that means the same thing as whatever jargon you speak.
Come off it.

And the UFC is a creepy 'boy's club' anyway.

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#389844 - 04/10/08 12:46 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: cxt]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Good point CXT. I will stick to kicking only cement walls and disiduous trees from now on.

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#389845 - 04/10/08 01:07 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Good point CXT. I will stick to kicking only cement walls and disiduous trees from now on.


disiduous trees = sheds its leaves in winter?.

So would that be just in the winter then?


Speaking of large trees. Certain Okinawans do tend to use them for bare hand/ forearm/ shoulder conditioning. The trees do seem to have a fair amount of give.
Or put it another way. The tree moves with the strikes while remaining rooted. Might be something to do with the strikers ability and physical conditioning as well me thinks, I think seen as this conversation is about wing chun of which I know nothing about other than didint it start life as white crane? I believe white crane was incorperated in to okinwan karate which in turn was where Japanese karate began life so I think it is still on topic.

Quote:


Man, it has nothing to do with 'powers'. Different set of words that means the same thing as whatever jargon you speak.
Come off it.




I might have missed that one???

Jude




Edited by jude33 (04/10/08 01:35 PM)

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#389846 - 04/10/08 05:15 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: jude33]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Sorry Jude, I wasn't being serious. Par for the course with this thread

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#389847 - 04/10/08 06:15 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Sorry Jude, I wasn't being serious. Par for the course with this thread




No need to be sorry as such. People make claims of making something work. I would realy like to see that happen if they have. Good luck to them. But observation of what they do is all I have to go on. No disrespect to the guy but if he is reading this I realy hope you have made it work.

The problem as he knows is observation is a good form of proof. If he is reading this then any chance of you putting it on video?


Jude

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