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#389828 - 04/08/08 12:31 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: JKogas]
Kimo2007 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/31/07
Posts: 1057
Quote:

As I was awakening to more of a western martial arts slant




Awakening to? Or do you mean blinded by?

_________________________
Undefeated in all of Asia!

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#389829 - 04/08/08 01:47 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
donchisau

Well I certainly appreciate that your taking the time to put us poor benighted souls "on the right track" as you put it:

"....so I thought I would put you and others reading on the right track

Yep, for my money nothing makes people more open and willing to exchange information like an overt stated postion that everyone but you is a knucklehead in deep need of your guidence.

BTW, if your kicking a "thick tree or...brick wall" its has little to do with your stance and mostly everything to do with how hard your hitting it that make you stand or fall.
Its simple physics--the solid mass of the wall beats the mass of a human being--you kick it really hard-you will lose, regardless of how good your stance might be.

You hit really hard and something is likely to give...probably you.


Edited by cxt (04/08/08 01:58 PM)
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#389830 - 04/09/08 02:35 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: cxt]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
LoL I guess I do sound a bit full of myself. Didn't read it that way. Oh well.

At the same time people do need to have the opportunity to find the right track if they have an open mind. I realize there are far to many close minded folks involved in blind "sifu love and devotion" and will never examine or question what they are taught but will merely believe what ever they are told. That's a shame but a fact of martial arts life.

As for kicking a tree or a wall. If anyone has basic structure they should be able to kick concrete walls or large tree's with either a front or side kick with FULL POWER and your support leg should not move and your upper body should not move and you should easily be able to hold your balance. This is the point of 1 leg SLT training after all.

The tests I have listed point they way. If people can pass them then all is good if not they need to examine what they are being taught.

And thats the bottom line cause Stone Cold Don said so!

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#389831 - 04/09/08 04:12 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Donchisau - I was wondering when you were coming back. Sometimes people confuse confidence or know how for bragging, but really it's just believing in what you are doing.

Though I do have some problems with the inner and outer gate punch being overpowered by full powered punches.

I the structure principle you speak of is soild, the ground does absorb energy if you are rooted.

I do believe and have seen that (as Jokgas and others have stated) WC does depend on alot of things going your way.

I remember this muscular WC Sifu 5'7 160lbs (I'm 6" taller and 65 muscular lbs heavier) while testing his Gung fu he did well against others Instructors but there were a couple guys that had his number. We trained together and we would help each other out. Now if we exchanged punches on a go he could perform the cutting block/punch move solidly but could not do it against his rival a solid muscular 5'7 190lb guy who used footwork and timing when punching. Rolled the WC guy (Mr. Lemons) like he was bowling. I suggested side stepping and using his feet and showed him how, and things were different after. So though Wing Chun a hand style you can't always punch with a puncher.

Some Wcer's state they avoid the cutting move because of that, Sifu Lemon believe in it bc his Sifu did.


Edited by Neko456 (04/09/08 04:13 PM)
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#389832 - 04/09/08 05:41 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
Don

Sorry Don, that is simply not true--its simple physics--a person has no-where near the mass, density and stabilty of a brick wall or a thick tree---you kick one with "full power" and your probably going to break something--and it ain't going to the brick wall.

And I have to disagree that the "point...of one 1 leg STL training" is to be able to kick brick walls and thick trees.

This...ahm.....test....is both foolish, quite possibly injurious and IMO of quite limited value--even you don't beark something-it only meausres a relativly static application.....not a active use.

Tell you what, you go out and kick a brick wall with your FULL POWER--then post the tape so we can see for ourselves how good you are, how hard you can really hit and how the body responds to such abuse.

Let me know when you have it posted.
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

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#389833 - 04/09/08 06:25 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: Neko456]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73

Neko you have hit on the hard part how to apply and adapt wing chun. There are no hard and fast rules for this unfortunately. My point of the thread you also hit on before.
First you need the complete wing chun internal structure then you have to learn how to apply it.



Since everyone is different, stronger,faster,smarter,better shape etc everyone needs to find their own answers a teacher or coach can only guide and give suggestions.

The cutting punch depends on the proper structure to work on everyone equally.. Punches should be done in a fashion that complements the skeletal structure not in opposition to it. For example most wing chunners throw punches in a piston like fashion i.e. the way many do the chain punch. However our joints are not piston joints. They are closer to ball and socket joints in general. If the bones remain firmly joined at the joint they are much more powerful than if they separate or pull out of the joint. Typical punching actually pulls the joints apart hence the rise in the shoulder and so many folks with elbow problems. This in turn has lead to modification of the punch for example some saying never straighten the arms or some pulling the shoulder back as they extend the punch to try to keep the arm set in the shoulder.
Side stepping and mobility is an excellent answer. To bad more folks don't use it.

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#389834 - 04/09/08 06:41 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: cxt]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Lol I get it now CXT if you can't do it nobody can and it can't be done.

As I said in my post I realize that there are those that are fanatics and believe that only they know the one true way of wing chun and can not open their minds to other methods. I see you are one of those. There is no point in posting anything because you can never be satisfied.

Funny neither I nor anyone I have taught and I have been teaching for 10 years have ever suffered any injury from kicking solid walls or trees. If you have the proper structure the energy goes through you into the ground.

Since you don't have the structure and can't pass even the basic SLT tests you would rather find away around it than to face your lack of ability and knowledge.

If you can't do something static you will never be able to do it while active.

You post a vid of you passing the basic SLT structure tests and then maybe I will have a vid posted from my next seminar in Florida in May.

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#389835 - 04/09/08 10:19 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5811
Loc: USA
don

Then it should be easy to provide the requested tape of your doing so.
One FULL POWER kick into a thick tree or a brick wall by a single student or yourself in a "10 year" period seems like a simple request.

You could do it yourself in about 10 minutes.

You want me to post a vid of somebody doing your foolish test and breaking their bones?????
Yeah, going to pass on that.....please recall YOUR the guy that says you can essentially ignore the laws of physics....I'M the guy who thinks your a blowhard with a "sifu complex."

Just so we are both clear on our respective roles

If anybody needs addtl evidnce look at the words choice you employ above...you don't know me, have never met me, don't know anything about my training....yet because I don't belive in dangerous training practices and that you can ignore the laws of physics.....you ASSUME that I can't do "X."
Which you have no earthly possibly means of knowing...your asserting a litteral impossiblity.

Unless "remote viewing" or astral projection is among your claimed powers.

BTW, you really don't deal well with people that question your pronuncements do you.....must be tough when people don't drink the Kool-Aid huh?

Like I said simply kick a brick wall with FULL POWER and post the vid....that way we can determine of its all that impressive for ourselves.

Pretty simple request.....one you either can't or won't do....which speaks volumes to your sincerty...or the lack there-of.

We don't advocate dangerous training around here---what your suggesting is potentially dangerous....you and your students want to do it?
Fine by me, your choices and your training.
Really none of my busines if you folks are happy risking serious injury.

But please don't promote such risky practices around here---as a rule we are "saftey first" kinda of folks.


Edited by cxt (04/09/08 10:28 PM)

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#389836 - 04/10/08 02:46 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: cxt]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Don said:
" Side stepping and mobility is an excellent answer. To bad more folks don't use it"

I think that's what I was talking about before when I said 'yes' to if I move away or to the side when moved in on. The yes would be to 'the side' much more than 'away', but away happens in situations where your arms are being stuffed into your abs. Of course, away and to the side is usually my reaction in that situation (ie kwun sao to escape and counter attack).

CXT - I'm not advocating unsafe practices, but you can actually kick walls and trees without hurting yourself. It's kind of like punching a wall bag - release the energy into the solid object. I guess a more viable comparison would be hitting a wooden dummy or makiwara, which people do all the time. I'm pretty sure you could break your leg sending CHAMBERED kicks at a wall, but the WC kicks allow for a higher limb survival value by the nature of their mechanics. I'm not saying Don has super powers, but dude - you can kick a wall and walk away from it.
Anyway though, there really isn't any value in being able to kick a wall full on if you can't do it to a faster, fleshier, muscleier type of target. That much is true for sure.

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#389837 - 04/10/08 06:46 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Lol @ "powers". The internet gets really goofy sometimes. Particularly martial arts forums.

Sheesh. You'd think that if Dana White (the new Don King) could find the worlds deadliest wing chun master, he'd sign his ass in New York minute. But he hasn't. Ever wonder why?

Probably because wing chun is only for the STREET!

-John

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