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#389818 - 04/04/08 11:08 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: Neko456]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
JK I understand where you are coming from and I agree with many of your points. Your experience with WC is no different than most others I am sorry to say. I learned to fight with wc from sparring with people outside of WC.

I just want to point out that the problem is that much of what passes for wing chun is only at best part of the system. it is due to sifu love and never thinking outside the box that this type of wing chun has passed down and been perpetuated.

Neko you are right about the tests they only prove the understanding and the ability to apply the basic core internal principles. That is the point at which you can then learn how to apply wing chun in combat. If you dont have the internal side all you have are external shapes and you have to come with strange ways to try to get the concepts to work. A great example of this is Leung Tings shifting one foot at a time. A garbage method but practiced long enough against other WC people and it looks like it works. He developed this as an attempt to mimic an aspect of proper internal mechanics that he did not have.

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#389819 - 04/04/08 12:17 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Shikita - Don't have much time right now to answer.

Are you sure that is what YM said or is it just what you were told. A great deal of knowledge has been lost or changed in translation. One of my favorite examples was Yip Ching's first Chicago seminar at Phil's school. Matt should have the tape. Huge difference's between what Yip Ching said and what Sam Kwok translates. Unless you have someone that understands English as well as cantonese (SP) you have no chance of understanding what is really said and unless you have someone that understands the version spoken in Fatshan and the HK version you will lose even more.

There is no force vs force at all involved in the bong test. It is all based on force absorbing,internal force direction and force expelling. You cannot pass any of the tests if you try force vs force. It is proper internal structure.

How do you perform "receive what comes"? Moving out of the way is not receiving is it? Is that how you shake hands? When someone puts their hand out to you do you move away from or move to the side?
Another question a little off topic " punch comes from the heart" what does that mean? These are 2 basic wing chun sayings. What do they mean and how do you do them?





Edited by donchisau (04/04/08 12:31 PM)

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#389820 - 04/04/08 08:22 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Quote:

Is that how you shake hands?




Actually, yeah. But that's because I also study kali

I would never quote anything Nearing said here. Just for the record.
Anyway, if you make contact, you are receiving to some degree or the other, right? I guess that particular exercise seems to me like it omits any sort of footwork which I PERSONALLY believe is a no-no in any martial art. I argue this with other WC people all the time, but I guess I have an impossible time in being too orthodox in anything. I do see the point though and would really like to know where these exercises came from because I haven't heard of them before.

Quote:

When someone puts their hand out to you do you move away from or move to the side?




Depends. If someone fires a centerline punch at mach 5 at me, I very well may step off and forward with a pak sao cover and a fak sao to the neck or ribs. It's situational. I believe that all techniques should have multiple applications in varying ranges and they should absolutely be bi-lateral in execution. I think alot of WC training would benefit from adopting these principles.

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#389821 - 04/06/08 04:37 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73

I have never seen anyone shake hands by backing away from the offered hand. Makes you unique.

You are either misreading my posts or I am not being clear.
They are not an exercise. They are basic skill tests. If you cant pass them standing then you have no ability to use the skill while moving. You first must have developed the basic skill before you can learn how to fight the way wing chun was designed.

You miss the point on bong sau. You said bong sau doesn't stay. Sure but does anything stay? Tan doesn't, stay Gaun doesn't stay, a punch doesn't stay nothing stays. My point was that you have lost a great deal in the translation or lack there of. You can not learn the ssytem the way it was intended and designed if you don't have the correct translations.

What is bong designed to do? Why do you bother with bong lap drills and poon sau rolling? What is bong being trained for? It is meant to receive energy. The bong tests simply measure your ability to receive and handle energy. If you can't do it standing with a friend then you won't be able to do it in a fight. To fight with wing chun you must have basic wing chun skills. If you can't pass these tests you don't have basic skills.
The tests and their variations are past of all wing chun families. Including Yip Man. There are reasons that many have dropped the tests. Primary being that so many focused on the external shapes and not the internal skills.

Wing Chun does not rely on speed and strength. There is always someone faster and external attributes decline with age. Wing Chun combat is close the gap, find the bridge, cross the bridge and stay there. Not move back across the bridge. You are to control the other persons center of gravity and control it. You get up their shirt and stay there. If you have the proper structure you can do this against much larger and stronger opponents without the proper structure you can't

Shifting is not meant to be an Ole move. Shifting allows you to maintain close contact while changing to a favorable angle for attack. The dummy makes a point of teaching this.

Yes wing chun footwork is meant to be very quick and nimble

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#389822 - 04/07/08 12:32 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Ok, I wasn't talking about backing away from the hand, but moving it or myself to the side. And I was kind of kidding.

Also, you still didn't answer my question. I see you writing alot about what 'is' and what 'isn't' in wing chun training progression, but you still didn't source it so I have to take it with the same grain of salt that I take MA advice from anyone.
Sorry.
With all due respect, I have noticed that WC students more than any other claim to know 'secrets'.
There are no secrets.
If you think there are, screw WC - you've missed the point of MA's and FIGHTING altogether.
I don't mean any disrespect, but taking what you're saying verbatim is really difficult when it gets cryptic and dodges the point.
Application is the only way to verify the truth - from what I understand it's an old buddhist saying. I think that translates just fine universally.

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#389823 - 04/07/08 11:15 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Next examine the punching test.
It trains basic timing and power projection. Hitting sand bags all day won't mean a thing if you can't deliver the power at the right moment. Punch to soon and no power delivered,punch to late and punch is smothered.
When the punch is delivered are you the puncher rocked backwards or out of your stance? if so then you are not delivering all your power into the other person the energy of your punch is coming back into you and throwing you off balance. Power is not delivered from an off balance position.

Do I know secrets Yes in so much as I have never taken any teachers word for anything. Everything must make sense. 1+1= 2. The student must be open minded enough to think for themselves. So I have studied with many teachers.
I am a senior certified instructor under the VTAA. Among others I have studied with Sam Kwok ,Yip Ching ,Yip Chun, Tsui Sheung Ting, Hawkins Cheung in the Yip Man line. I have also learned the Kwai family wing chun which comes from Leung Jan student Lo Kwai. I have had other teachers as well as you know and have had many friendly exchanges with students from many other wing chun families both Yip Man and mainland versions including a student/friend of Yip Bo Ching, Yip Mans top student until his death in 1969.

If you don't want to accept what I have to say thats fine. Your a nice guy so thought I would put you and others reading on the right track. It's up to every person to follow what ever track they want.

It bothers when people say wing chun doesn't work has poor power etc when through no fault of their own they have never seen or been taught the full system.

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#389824 - 04/07/08 11:28 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Quote:

It bothers when people say wing chun doesn't work has poor power etc when through no fault of their own they have never seen or been taught the full system.




Well, I certainly agree with that.
Again I apologize for any skepticism - I've just heard a lot of empty claims and wild theories throughout my experience with WC and it's hard to tell who's who sometimes. I trust my sifu's teaching, but not just because he's sifu. It has more to do with me personally than that. I also haven't met Ip Ching sigung in person, but most of the others have and when I watch the video they bring back I can see clearly where our kung fu comes from.
We're on the same page, I just wanted to know where these tests were created.

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#389825 - 04/07/08 11:30 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
As for being cryptic I don't think I am being so but there is only so much that can be explained over the net and only so much time I have to reply on forums.
Application is a good way to test. Go to CFC on clark if its still there or walk into a boxing gym and ask to spar. Tell them you do wing chun and want to test it out. You should have no trouble testing your stuff out. Or go to the gracie school on lasalle and division I think. I know they will be happy to play with you. That's how I learned wing chun. I challenged people all over Chicago I used to run adds in the Reader and Suntimes looking for sparring partners and I found them and often had sparing matches that turned real. So if you really want to test your wing chun in application that's how to do it. You have my best wishes .

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#389826 - 04/08/08 06:25 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
Triddle Offline
Member

Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 129
Loc: Australia
Quote:

When the punch is delivered are you the puncher rocked backwards or out of your stance? if so then you are not delivering all your power into the other person the energy of your punch is coming back into you and throwing you off balance. Power is not delivered from an off balance position.




I just have to point this out...
When you punch someone an equal force will be distrubted on you as them. This is not energy being wasted 'coming back in to you' this is simply the way the physical world works, there is no way to overcome this. This is one of the very basics of mechanics. To simplify newton's third law "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction". It is this that makes such an action as jumping possible, though you are pushing down on the earth, the earth pushes back on you with the same force, accelerating you upwards. It is also the reason punching a wall hurts. This law deals with force, as opposed to energy or power (as you mentioned), but it does directly correlate to both energy and power meaning that your energy and power will never 'come back into you' but instead power and energy equal to that which is delivered will always be exerted against you.

If when you said energy you were not infact refering to physical energy, and instead refering to mystical energy, I appologise for the misunderstanding.

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#389827 - 04/08/08 09:12 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: Triddle]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Triddle you are 100% correct about the energy. In my attempt to keep things simple I skipped an important point. The goal is to send energy into the other person while sending the energy that comes back into you down to the ground. The proper structure which should be trained via the basic stance trains energy path into the ground. The reason you go back and lose balance is because the alignment of the skeleton is not correct.
A kicking test tests the same thing. You kick a brick wall or thick tree full power and your support leg should hold it's stance.The power line is tree through kicking leg through support leg into the ground.

I try to avoid to much energy talk on forums since it can be mistaken for mystical something. Wing chun is based on dealing with energy,the physical kind hence all the SLT tests I mentioned all test the ability to create and maintain the proper physical structure that allows energy to flow into and out of the ground, sink ,spit,float,swallow etc is all based on handling incoming and outgoing energy

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