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#389808 - 04/03/08 01:13 PM have you ever seen wing chun.
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
The wing chun/boxing thread made me wonder if everyone was talking about the same thing. So here are some tests to determine if you know or have ever seen the full wing chun method. These tests are to determine the internal level of development of the wing chun person but they should also work for other internal systems as well.

SLT level

Proper punching power:

Stand in basic YGKM stance hands at side. partner holds large thai pad across his chest. partner runs at puncher. partner punches when person is within range. Ideal is person running should be dropped on his butt most likely running person should get sent backwards in a forceful manner. puncher should not move out of his stance in any way. no wobble no step back or forward.
If the person cannot do this they have not learned SLT level internal mechanics. Person gets run over by the runner
is not a good thing.
SLT basic structure tests.

Stand in basic stance. Partner puts on on chest either either side or center and pushes. Person being tested should maintain stance and absorb incoming force. If person gets pushed out of stance they are still learning SLT skills and not ready to advance.
SLT bong sau test. Pose bong sau. partner pushes on forearm of bong. Bong should not collapse or move. person should be able to maintain stance without moving. Again this is basic SLT skill level.
Chum kui tests. stand in basic stance. partner grabs and holds shoulders. perform chum kui turn. If you cant turn or the upper half of body cant turn you have not learned basic ck skills. turn should be done slowly so as not to hurt partners wrists. At slow pace turn should through person off. hands remain at side

CK bong test- form tan parson holds tan arm. step while changing tan to bong. should expel partner backward.. if this is passed then do same without stepping.

Every level of wing chun has tests to determine if internal portain of art has been learned. If people cannot pass these tests they are not doing wing chun as they have only learned motions not the the full art.

You will find that very few can pass these tests. If you want to do a honest comparison of wc to other methods than you should find someone that can pass these tests and then compare.

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#389809 - 04/03/08 01:24 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote:

You will find that very few can pass these tests. If you want to do a honest comparison of wc to other methods than you should find someone that can pass these tests and then compare.




With all due respect, that fact that so few in the art can do those points to problems transmitting the art. Not an attack on Wing Chun. My own AKK suffers from the same problem, as do others.

Don't see nearly as many problems from styles that have resistant training as their core.
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#389810 - 04/03/08 03:42 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Those are good test that test the structure of a WC pupil and with that it shows that they understand certain principles or they maybe well schooled.

But what does it prove? That they can fight or that they have a sound foundation in that art. These two things do cross-section to becoming a good possibility but not alway true. Just like having sound good kuens/forms doesn't produce a great fighter but maybe a fair one that represents the system well.

People that can do 1" punches are not always good fighters, they may be able to control and send out their energies but that doesn't mean they can fight. So what is the test proving? Accept that they understand certain principles.

And again some people are great fighters within their own method but they don't fight well outside their styles range or can be faked out by other methods.

Please don't tell me that fakes don't work on WCers.
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#389811 - 04/03/08 04:38 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
IMO, I'd say those are pretty irrelevant tests when the objective is fighting skill.

Who cares if you have "mastered" wing chun if you still can't fight?



-John

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#389812 - 04/03/08 05:01 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
Damn thats blunt, but this is Jkogas.

I believe principles are building blocks of good techniques and techniques are trained to produce fighting results. Not aways but theres a good possibility rather then not.
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#389813 - 04/03/08 06:44 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: JKogas]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Jkogas your statement is irrelevant and shows a misunderstand of my intent and the post.

There are those with no formal training that can fight like a bat out of hell and those training everyday at MMA gyms that will never be able to fight their way out of a paper bag.

My point is as follows:

To criticize wing chun without ever feeling it or training with or against it is no different than saying you don't like apples because its round like a peach and you don't like peaches because they have fuzzy skin.

Wing chun is a tool designed to operate a certain way. A shotgun can be used as a club but if thats how you think it is supposed to be used you will have a rude surprise when someone aims and pulls the trigger.

A person that can't pass the simple tests I listed is no different than someone using a shotgun as a club.

Wing chun is more than a method to fight. If all you want is to learn how to bang than go to a boxing gym. Wing Chun is concerned with the overall health of the practitioner.walk into any boxing or MMA gym and talk to people that have been at it for 15 years or so. They are goofy and all have nagging injuries of some sort. Wing Chun is meant to make you better physically and mentally as you get older not worse.

The only way to learn how to fight is to fight. This is true for all combat methods. Many folks train wing chun for simple self defense reasons and have no desire to train to fight at anywhere close to a competitive level. A good teacher should offer them the chance to learn at a higher gear but should not force it upon them . This is a good way to lose students and income if you teach for a living. If a teacher doesn't offer students this chance students should go out on there own and find sparring partners. This is how I learned how to fight with wing chun.

If you ever get the chance to spar with someone that can pass the tests I listed do so then complain about wing chun.

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#389814 - 04/03/08 06:53 PM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: MattJ]
donchisau Offline
Member

Registered: 11/04/06
Posts: 73
Mattj - You are correct. Wing Chun is not passed down correctly and it is a shame. The problem is that this goes so deep that wing chun as it was designed is almost extinct.

Leung Jan taught for 50 years or so and had only 12-15 students. Chan Wah had 16 over 30 years of teaching.

Yip Man was the first to have a public school. He left alot out for numerous reasons one being he had a lot of hong kong punks as students the other that several students started to teach after only 3 years or so of training thus draining his rice bowl of his only means of income. Noone would teach people like this the best parts of your method.

From that point on the finer points of wing chun internal methods have washed away. Those that know them have held on to them as some precious secret.

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#389815 - 04/04/08 12:52 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: donchisau]
ShikataGaNai Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/27/05
Posts: 1163
Loc: Bellingham, WA
Don -

Where did you learn these tests? Surely not from 'you know who'
I think these are interesting, but I fail to understand some of it - especially the bong sao example. Bong sao is a deflecting movement (ie, moves the opponents energy off to the side, off the center line - NOT rolling forward) and is also never a static movement. "The bong sao never forms" to quote Ip Man. Why would you want to use it for a force-on-force application? Isn't getting the hell off line just as useful for maintaining your structure as just standing there? Sorry if I missed something on that one.
And in Jkogas's defense, he has WC experience and it didn't work for him. I can only guess why, but it seriously isn't for everybody. I also don't know where he trained or how the art was taught to him. Maybe you could fill us in John?

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#389816 - 04/04/08 06:18 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: ShikataGaNai]
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Quote:

I also don't know where he trained or how the art was taught to him. Maybe you could fill us in John?




I trained under a guy who used to be in the Charlotte area back in the early 90's. If you're asking for names, you're not getting any. The guy is still teaching from what I understand (no longer in Charlotte however) and it isn’t my intention to disparage the man or his reputation.

Granted, I didn't stay long enough to become a "master" as some may require of me in order to be critical. However I was there long enough and actually quit because the drive was too far and my son had been born. Tells you how many decent options the area had back in those days….

What I discovered there was that wing chun was great so long as everyone else fought the same way. It was great so long as people gave you those perfect centerline punches. The minute that the punching became unorthodox or less committed however and people’s technique went right out the window.

I didn’t like the fact that everything had to come together perfectly in order for it to “work”. There was too little margin for error.

As I was awakening to more of a western martial arts slant, I thought the training should resemble boxing more than it did. I thought there should have been more sparring and aliveness in general (there was none).

Look guys, I still use principles in my sparring to this day. I’m not saying that wing chun ‘can’t’ work…all I’m saying is that its training methods SUCK for the most part, in my opinion, based upon what I have seen and experienced. You’re all free to think otherwise. Just test your [censored] out against people other than wing chun guys once in a while.


-John

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#389817 - 04/04/08 09:12 AM Re: have you ever seen wing chun. [Re: JKogas]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I agree with Jkogas but that is true of any system, you may can fight well against another Hun gar, Choy li fat man or WC man or JuJitsu but what happens when you fight outside your systems? Or against an unorthdox fighter.

The tests only prove the tested understands and can apply some of the principles of WC.


Edited by Neko456 (04/04/08 09:13 AM)
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